Eastern Catholicism and Culture

[Emmanuel85]

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

A little over a year ago, I transferred to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church from the Roman Catholic Church, ending about three years of discernment and experience with the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I was happy to finally canonically belong to this Church, having learned about its history and heritage, its customs and liturgy, its theology and spirituality, and so forth. I felt, and continue to feel, called to be an Eastern Christian who is also in full communion with the Apostolic See of Rome.
Unfortunately, I began to taste sour elements in the form of nationalism and ethnic-centered opinions regarding the purpose of my Church. I dismissed it at first, but it continued to peep around the corner. I saw friends of mine, who had become as enamored with the Eastern Churches as I, gradually filter away. This happened either through feeling excluded from belonging to this Church (the most common sentiment), or in a few cases outright rejection to their faces by current parishioners. I have even heard of clergy and clergy wives who, because their last names were non-Ukrainian, were literally told by parishioners that they weren’t welcome. Some of these people joined the Ruthenians (a.k.a. the Byzantine Catholic Church in America) or the Melkites, others re-joined their Roman Catholic parishes, and some even entered communion with the Orthodox Church.
I once met a U.G.C. priest who implied that I was on my way to hell because I couldn’t speak Ukrainian. Last year at Pascha, a certain gentleman complained that there was too much English in the Liturgy (despite its being half-English and half-Ukrainian). One person became positively disgusted at me for suggesting that we might want to consider working with Hispanic peoples, in Spanish (and others, in their native language). Just yesterday I had a discussion with a parishioner who claimed that our Church exists solely for the purpose of preserving all things Ukrainian, and only for the Ukrainian people and their descendants, and that we must not branch out to other people (I had just suggested that we must learn to evangelize, so as to replace the parishioners who left the parish either through intermarriage or dissatisfaction). Naturally, I was dismayed, being a ‘convert’.
With this mentality, I would like to propose a question. Why do we Eastern Catholic Churches exist after all? I was led to believe that extreme nationalism, linked with religion, is a heresy (I don’t recall the official name). The host of unpleasant experiences that I have endured in the past year has led me to wonder whether I made the right decision in transferring here.

 

[Ungcsertez]

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

A little over a year ago, I transferred to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church from the Roman Catholic Church, ending about three years of discernment and experience with the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I was happy to finally canonically belong to this Church, having learned about its history and heritage, its customs and liturgy, its theology and spirituality, and so forth. I felt, and continue to feel, called to be an Eastern Christian who is also in full communion with the Apostolic See of Rome.
Unfortunately, I began to taste sour elements in the form of nationalism and ethnic-centered opinions regarding the purpose of my Church. I dismissed it at first, but it continued to peep around the corner. I saw friends of mine, who had become as enamored with the Eastern Churches as I, gradually filter away. This happened either through feeling excluded from belonging to this Church (the most common sentiment), or in a few cases outright rejection to their faces by current parishioners. I have even heard of clergy and clergy wives who, because their last names were non-Ukrainian, were literally told by parishioners that they weren’t welcome. Some of these people joined the Ruthenians (a.k.a. the Byzantine Catholic Church in America) or the Melkites, others re-joined their Roman Catholic parishes, and some even entered communion with the Orthodox Church.
I once met a U.G.C. priest who implied that I was on my way to hell because I couldn’t speak Ukrainian. Last year at Pascha, a certain gentleman complained that there was too much English in the Liturgy (despite its being half-English and half-Ukrainian). One person became positively disgusted at me for suggesting that we might want to consider working with Hispanic peoples, in Spanish (and others, in their native language). Just yesterday I had a discussion with a parishioner who claimed that our Church exists solely for the purpose of preserving all things Ukrainian, and only for the Ukrainian people and their descendants, and that we must not branch out to other people (I had just suggested that we must learn to evangelize, so as to replace the parishioners who left the parish either through intermarriage or dissatisfaction). Naturally, I was dismayed, being a ‘convert’.
With this mentality, I would like to propose a question. Why do we Eastern Catholic Churches exist after all? I was led to believe that extreme nationalism, linked with religion, is a heresy (I don’t recall the official name). The host of unpleasant experiences that I have endured in the past year has led me to wonder whether I made the right decision in transferring here.

Some Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches like to preserve traditions that are culturally Ukrainian. Some of their priests, priests wives and parishioners are recent immigrants not only since the end of WWII but since the time of Ukrainain independence in 1991. They have strong ties to their Ukrainian culture. Some of these cultural tradtions are hard to seperate from their Ukrainian Church traditions.

If you are so offended, then go a seek out a “Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church in America” church which has sought out to rid all ethnic traditions and cultural ties and become a truly English speaking American Byzantine Catholic Church. I think you would be better off to seek an Americanized church and let the Ukrainian Church do as they please.

U-C

 

[wmlillie]

The UGCC is highly nationalistic, a Byzantine Catholic Church in America parish may better fit for you needs.

Wonderful article written several years ago by Bishop Nicholas Samra of the Melkite Church offers a Vision of what Eastern Catholicism needs to that I proscribe to if it is to continue to grow in America.

I offer a vision for this third Christian millennium. We need to live it today:

1. We need a stronger and direct role of the laity. Through Baptism and Christmation each is a part of the royal priesthood; you share in the work of evangelizing and spreading Christianity. You need to live the Liturgy that is celebrated in church and in the world after you leave the church. We need to evangelize those we have within our parishes and welcome others into our communities.

1. We need to recognize our gifts and talents for the building up of the body of Christ.

1. We need to emphasize stewardship, the proper use of our God-given gifts, for the life and growth of the Church,. I speak of our gifts of Time, Talent and Treasure. Stewardship is not a program but a way of life.

1. We need to re-focus on religious education, especially for the adults from whom the youth learn. In this area our Church is almost sterile; we have good people but they are very poorly formed spiritually.

1. We need to emphasize spiritual leadership; our churches are not businesses like IBM or General Motors – they are houses of God and need to be run in a businesslike manner but never become businesses. How can we expect laity to lead without formation programs?

1. We need to use language as a medium of communication – whether it be Arabic, English, Spanish or others. We must pray in the language of the people and not use foreign language because we like its sound or because of its antiquity or history with in our Church. The Russian and Slavic peoples would not be Christian today if Cyril and Methodius forced Greek upon them. The largest Eastern Catholic Church is the Ukrainian, with 5 million people. Following them is the Syro-Malabar, with nearly 4 million. These people are Christian because they were evangelized in their own languages. Arabic is important for those who need it and properly understand it. One of the reasons for losing so many young people is the language. If they do not understand Arabic they will filter way from our communities and go where they can understand. English is the language of our country and should be the major focus.

1. We need to worry less about haflis and tabooli – it is not the task of our churches to propagate Arab culture. The Church’s task is to propagate Christ.

1. We need to return to financial stewardship, or God’s plan of giving. We call this plan tithing. We must reeducate our people about this biblical system blessed by God. As soon as possible we need to delete the gambling and drinking fund raising techniques and teach our people to put God first. He is our hope and trust. This task is awesome and probably the most difficult, but without it we are heading towards financial and spiritual bankruptcy.

1. We need to keep and maintain our proper traditions that are based in the East, and are so needed by our diverse communities today.

1. We need to break the bonds of animosity, jealousy and competitions with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. We need to work on a grass roots level to prepare for our full unity.

1. We need to say “yes” once again to the man who has a genuine vocation to the priesthood and yet is married. If God calls a person to service and we say no – how damned we shall be for rejecting what God wants.

I could go on and one with other dreams and visions but I will end with naming just these few.

 

[malphono]

The UGCC is highly nationalistic, a Byzantine Catholic Church in America parish may better fit for you needs.

Wonderful article written several years ago by Bishop Nicholas Samra of the Melkite Church offers a Vision of what Eastern Catholicism needs to that I proscribe to if it is to continue to grow in America.

IMHO, the quoted text is a bit of an anti-liturgical language diatribe, and even without the by-line, it is very obvious that it was written by a highly Americanized (and post-conciliarized, to coin a word) Melkite.

The language arguments in item 6 are interesting, except that he totally ignores Greek in reference to his own Melkites. That’s rather typical. He’s hell bent on vernacular, but he argument is disingenuous: in case he’s forgotten, it is the liturgical language of the Melkites, even though the Antiochene Orthodox are more likely to use it. And as far as I know, the Syro-Malabars (who speak Malayalam in Kerala) are very happy to preserve Syriac. I could go on and on, but I don’t have the wherewithal, and see a point in doing so.

And of course he’s not interested in tabbouli or haflis (cracked wheat salad and parties) and refers to same as “Arab culture” but they are not. Middle Eastern, yes. Arab, no.

 

[Diak]

Glory to Him forever!

The UGCC is highly nationalistic, a Byzantine Catholic Church in America parish may better fit for you needs.

This is not universally true. Visit St. Elias in Brampton sometime - the protodeacon’s last name is Kennedy. The pastor of our UGCC parish in San Diego is named Bankston. My last name (I am a UGCC deacon) is Brown.

All Eastern Christian Churches, whether Catholic or Orthodox, do retain some of the “nash” identity or the particular culture of the people who founded the Church. In the case of the UGCC that tenacity helped the Church survive under unbelievable difficulties and oppression. It is usually very difficult for any diasporal community of whatever ethnicity to make the adjustment, but especially when that ethnicity was the preservation of a cultural, spiritual, and religious patrimony.

Certainly some parishes are less favorable of English than others; that trend is changing and many parishes have English liturgies now or at least bi-lingual Liturgies.

Vespers and other services (Akathists, etc.) at my mission are about 90% or greater English.

Bishop Nicholas is right - and others, Catholic and Orthodox, have spoken about the need for us to be more welcoming and acclimated to the culture that we are in. I do not believe that means capitulating to modern American culture.

Can we do better? Absolutely - there is always much room for improvement. Both Patriarch Lubomyr and the American bishops have indicated the need for us to be more welcoming of the use of English and doing more outreach work. We now have some wonderful English liturgical resources.

While I do agree that there are some negative aspects of ethnicism, I also appreciate the very strong defense of the tradition as well as a direct and living link to the Church of the Confessors - who knew what it meant to be Greek Catholic to the point of torture and even death. I have greatly enjoyed serving with heroes and confessors for my faith. My sons were taught to serve by such confessors and survivors, and that experience has greatly shaped their faith and appreciation not only for their Church but for what they have to be thankful for on a daily basis.

But not being welcoming is not the sole property of any single particular Church. I’ve been told I wasn’t welcome in parishes with American priests of another Eastern Catholic jurisdiction that only used English, and told as a deacon I could not celebrate the full ritual of that particular Church as even contained in books approved by Rome, so these kinds of things can happen anywhere.

Keith makes a good point - the BCCA has indeed attempted to define herself as a modern American church liturgically and culturally. There are few married clergy, a crisis of vocations, and essentially no traditional monastic life.

As an American who grew up in the West I have found the Ukrainian parishes I have belonged to as exemplary in hospitality and warmth (and cooking as well…another story) - far more than the other Greek Catholic jurisdiction I have served in. I was asked to be a diak of our UGCC parish within a year after we started attending. While I have some distant relation, I was essentially starting from scratch. I introduced more English fairly quickly with the readings and propers with the blessing of my Ukrainian priests who understood that in the Midwest we had to use more English. The priests began using bi-lingual sermons and some litanies.

There is no parochial utopia on this earth, and everyone’s experience is going to differ. One must look at all aspects of a particular Church when deciding to take such a serious spiritual step.

Eventually one must make their ecclesiastical home where they are most at peace spiritually. For me that is the UGCC, for someone else it might be the Melkites, Romanians Chaldeans, Maronites, whomever.
FDRLB

 

[wmlillie]

Glory to Him forever!

This is not universally true. Visit St. Elias in Brampton sometime - the protodeacon’s last name is Kennedy. The pastor of our UGCC parish in San Diego is named Bankston. My last name (I am a UGCC deacon) is Brown.

All Eastern Christian Churches, whether Catholic or Orthodox, do retain some of the “nash” identity or the particular culture of the people who founded the Church. In the case of the UGCC that tenacity helped the Church survive under unbelievable difficulties and oppression. It is usually very difficult for any diasporal community of whatever ethnicity to make the adjustment, but especially when that ethnicity was the preservation of a cultural, spiritual, and religious patrimony.

Certainly some parishes are less favorable of English than others; that trend is changing and many parishes have English liturgies now or at least bi-lingual Liturgies.

Vespers and other services (Akathists, etc.) at my mission are about 90% or greater English.

Bishop Nicholas is right - and others, Catholic and Orthodox, have spoken about the need for us to be more welcoming and acclimated to the culture that we are in. I do not believe that means capitulating to modern American culture.

Can we do better? Absolutely - there is always much room for improvement. Both Patriarch Lubomyr and the American bishops have indicated the need for us to be more welcoming of the use of English and doing more outreach work. We now have some wonderful English liturgical resources.

While I do agree that there are some negative aspects of ethnicism, I also appreciate the very strong defense of the tradition as well as a direct and living link to the Church of the Confessors - who knew what it meant to be Greek Catholic to the point of torture and even death. I have greatly enjoyed serving with heroes and confessors for my faith. My sons were taught to serve by such confessors and survivors, and that experience has greatly shaped their faith and appreciation not only for their Church but for what they have to be thankful for on a daily basis.

But not being welcoming is not the sole property of any single particular Church. I’ve been told I wasn’t welcome in parishes with American priests of another Eastern Catholic jurisdiction that only used English, and told as a deacon I could not celebrate the full ritual of that particular Church as even contained in books approved by Rome, so these kinds of things can happen anywhere.

Keith makes a good point - the BCCA has indeed attempted to define herself as a modern American church liturgically and culturally. There are few married clergy, a crisis of vocations, and essentially no traditional monastic life.

As an American who grew up in the West I have found the Ukrainian parishes I have belonged to as exemplary in hospitality and warmth (and cooking as well…another story) - far more than the other Greek Catholic jurisdiction I have served in. I was asked to be a diak of our UGCC parish within a year after we started attending. While I have some distant relation, I was essentially starting from scratch. I introduced more English fairly quickly with the readings and propers with the blessing of my Ukrainian priests who understood that in the Midwest we had to use more English. The priests began using bi-lingual sermons and some litanies.

There is no parochial utopia on this earth, and everyone’s experience is going to differ. One must look at all aspects of a particular Church when deciding to take such a serious spiritual step.

Eventually one must make their ecclesiastical home where they are most at peace spiritually. For me that is the UGCC, for someone else it might be the Melkites, Romanians Chaldeans, Maronites, whomever.
FDRLB

Father Deacon,

I humbly apologize if what I wrote was inaccurate. I was speaking in generalization, and meant it not in a negative way. The UGCC is to be commended, especially the underground Church that survived during the most tragic period of Christianity. This is something to be proud of, and i can see why they cling to their identity so strongly. I was just trying to point out apparent differences in culture between the UGCC and the BCC. I have been told that many Parishes of the BCC have similar ethnicism issues, but without the language barrier.

I have nothing but respect for the UGCC, and I am honored to worship beside them. I know from a previous post, that your sons and I have mutual mentor. However, many converts/transfers to Eastern Catholicism might be more comfortable in Parish that provides more services in English whether that be the BCC or UGCC.

By the way it is not acceptable how you were treated in another Eastern Catholic Jurisdiction outside your own. I am also only too well aware of the the pitfalls and struggles of the BCC with regards to the issues that you have brought up.

I agree with your statement: “There is no parochial utopia on this earth, and everyone’s experience is going to differ. One must look at all aspects of a particular Church when deciding to take such a serious spiritual step.”

In Christ,
Mike Lillie

 

[Emmanuel85]

This is not universally true. Visit St. Elias in Brampton sometime - the protodeacon’s last name is Kennedy. The pastor of our UGCC parish in San Diego is named Bankston. My last name (I am a UGCC deacon) is Brown.

Yes, I’ve been to visit St. Elias and truly experienced a wonderful, spiritual time there. I felt ‘at home’, as it were, since it was a true Eastern Christian parish in communion with Rome. They were not all about ethnicity, even though they had very tangible elements of it. Rather, they made it clear to me that they were Eastern Christians first, no matter where their origins lay. It was, I would say, a long-awaited spiritual renewal for me.

Bishop Nicholas is right - and others, Catholic and Orthodox, have spoken about the need for us to be more welcoming and acclimated to the culture that we are in. I do not believe that means capitulating to modern American culture.

Can we do better? Absolutely - there is always much room for improvement. Both Patriarch Lubomyr and the American bishops have indicated the need for us to be more welcoming of the use of English and doing more outreach work. We now have some wonderful English liturgical resources.

While I do agree that there are some negative aspects of ethnicism, I also appreciate the very strong defense of the tradition as well as a direct and living link to the Church of the Confessors - who knew what it meant to be Greek Catholic to the point of torture and even death. I have greatly enjoyed serving with heroes and confessors for my faith. My sons were taught to serve by such confessors and survivors, and that experience has greatly shaped their faith and appreciation not only for their Church but for what they have to be thankful for on a daily basis.

Keith makes a good point - the BCCA has indeed attempted to define herself as a modern American church liturgically and culturally. There are few married clergy, a crisis of vocations, and essentially no traditional monastic life.

Do you think that this is why they are doing so badly? I always wondered about that, since the seminary in Pittsburgh unfortunately only has a few vocations! Monastic life, it seems, is down in all of the Eastern Catholic Churches present in the U.S.A.

There is no parochial utopia on this earth, and everyone’s experience is going to differ. One must look at all aspects of a particular Church when deciding to take such a serious spiritual step.

Eventually one must make their ecclesiastical home where they are most at peace spiritually. For me that is the UGCC, for someone else it might be the Melkites, Romanians, Chaldeans, Maronites, whomever.

And this is why, in a ‘perfect world’ (whatever that means), I would choose to remain in the Kyivan Church. Everyone that you mention above also played a part in my coming here.

 

[Diak]

Yes, for me as well, the Kyivan Church gives the greatest opportunity to live as Soloviev postulated, fully orthodox and fully Catholic (and as both Metropolitan Andrey and Patriarch Josyp of blessed memory exhorted the faithful to live).
FDRLB

n.b. Mike - absolutely no offense taken; often some have falsely romantic expectations from our Churches (as some do as well with the TLM movement amongst the Latins) and I certainly do not want to contribute to any misconceptions.
FDRLB

 

[Athanasiy]

When I was a Baptist Christian , I did not learn much about the respect to our Ukrainian history to our language and culture .
Even now on the West of Ukraine in the Evangelical Churches , you can hear some times the sermons in Russian language.
The people who call themselves Ukrainians do not see it as a necessity to speak or to preach in their own language.

And if to talk about patriotism , I think from the pulpits , you can hear more about patriotism towards the Jewish nation.
Something like :
-…‘ its because of the Jews we have bread on our tables’…
-…‘ We are not thankful enough to the Jews for the riches and blessings we have’…
and many other statements.
I do not even mention about the morally destructive eschatological theories and one-sided interpretation of the Political events in the Palestine …

I love and respect the Jews , and believe that because of this nation God indeed has gave us a lot of blessings .

But I must learn how to love and respect my own nation , language , culture and identity.
Not to be shy and not to be afraid of it.
To respect the history , the flag and the anthem of my country.
There is nothing bad in this nationalism.

And if for example the Church which I attend on Sundays is thus nationalistic , it’s in my opinion does not diminish the ecclesiastical and spiritual value of this Church.

In my opinion , only the nationalism which promotes racism , and the hate to other nations is not acceptable nationalism.

 

[Freshman88]

The people who call themselves Ukrainians do not see it as a necessity to speak or to preach in their own language.

Yourer joking, right? Whose saying this? the Catholics or the evangelicals? Or all Ukrainians?

And if to talk about patriotism , I think from the pulpits , you can hear more about patriotism towards the Jewish nation.
Something like :
-…‘ its because of the Jews we have bread on our tables’…
-…‘ We are not thankful enough to the Jews for the riches and blessings we have’…
and many other statements.

That’s just absurd. Is there any kind of source you can provide for this? And again, is this the Catholics you speak of, or the evangelicals?

I’m really lost. What exactly are you trying to say?

 

[Ungcsertez]

When I was a Baptist Christian , I did not learn much about the respect to our Ukrainian history to our language and culture .
Even now on the West of Ukraine in the Evangelical Churches , you can hear some times the sermons in Russian language.
The people who call themselves Ukrainians do not see it as a necessity to speak or to preach in their own language.

And if to talk about patriotism , I think from the pulpits , you can hear more about patriotism towards the Jewish nation.
Something like :
-…‘ its because of the Jews we have bread on our tables’…
-…‘ We are not thankful enough to the Jews for the riches and blessings we have’…
and many other statements.
I do not even mention about the morally destructive eschatological theories and one-sided interpretation of the Political events in the Palestine …

I love and respect the Jews , and believe that because of this nation God indeed has gave us a lot of blessings .

But I must learn how to love and respect my own nation , language , culture and identity.
Not to be shy and not to be afraid of it.
To respect the history , the flag and the anthem of my country.
There is nothing bad in this nationalism.

And if for example the Church which I attend on Sundays is thus nationalistic , it’s in my opinion does not diminish the ecclesiastical and spiritual value of this Church.

In my opinion , only the nationalism which promotes racism , and the hate to other nations is not acceptable nationalism.

It’s a shame that those who join the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church confuse authentic Ukrainian liturgical tradition w/ perceived
ethno-centric nationalism.

U-C

 

[Freshman88]

It’s a shame that those who join the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church confuse authentic Ukrainian liturgical tradition w/ perceived
ethno-centric nationalism.

U-C

indeed!

At the same time there there is nothing wrong with love of nation, culture and language.

Слава Українi! , Героям слава!

 

[Athanasiy]

Yourer joking, right? Whose saying this? the Catholics or the evangelicals? Or all Ukrainians?

That’s just absurd. Is there any kind of source you can provide for this? And again, is this the Catholics you speak of, or the evangelicals?

I’m really lost. What exactly are you trying to say?

I speak about the attitude of the Pastors and preachers of some Evangelical Churches even on the West of Ukraine , who till now do not speak Ukrainian , but are preaching , singing , and having service in Russian language.
Also I speak about ‘‘unusual form of patriotism towards the Israel and the Jews’’ among Evangelicals.
( again with all my love and respect towards the Jews. I mention this strange form of patriotism , because in the Evangelical Churches much attention is paid towards the end of the world sermons , and the events in Palestine are usually interpreted as the signs of the end of the world. I think the people , who had been at least once or twice on the divine service in the Baptist , Pentecostal , Charismatic Church in Ukraine - they know what I mean. )

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church vice versa , is teaching me to be Ukrainian .
And to love Ukraine .
The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is teaching me , that spirituality has a lot to do with loving your country , respecting your culture , tradition and identity.
Therefore I do not see in Ukrainian nationalism nothing negative .
Even if some one is not Ukrainian he can be the member of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

 

[Athanasiy]

I do not believe as Emmanuel mentioned , that if the one does not speak Ukrainian in the UGCC , he will go to hell ,
but there are the Ukrainians in Ukraine who live 30 – 40 years in Ukrainian speaking areas in their own country and do not speak Ukrainian.
Among them the Pastors of Evangelical communities , who preach about the high achievements in spirituality , not realizing the elementary thing - the necessity to learn the language of the country where they are from.

For example ;
You can see the Ukrainians in Charismatic Churches , who dance Jewish dances and play very Jewish music and they do not know nothing and do not want to know about their own spiritual , cultural , musical and folk traditions .

They are passionate to learn Jewish history in details , praising the Jewish heroes and at the same time deny their own national heroes who were fighting for the freedom of Ukraine and do not know their own Ukrainian history.

Oh yes , they praise the Jewish prophets , even applying some of their writings with some morally destructive eschatological theories , but do not see in their spirituality that Ukraine needs the prophets as well , among politicians , journalists , among the volunteer people of good will , in order to make the structural changes , and the social changes.

For example ; - They follow the events in Palestine with one – sided favoritism ( thinking that the state of Israel is the God’s Biblical Israel ) , and at the same time do not follow what is going on in the political , economic , social life of their own country.

• The simple Evangelical community member , ( who is not a theologist at all ) is even trying to learn ancient Hebrew , to understand some spiritual depths , and do not even try to learn Ukrainian ! His own mother’s language !

That’s the reason why I think that the Nationalism of the UGCC is very important and vital for Ukraine !
We need to begin to learn ( to begin to make the first steps ) of how to love , respect , and fight for our country !
Therefore I deny that Ukrainian Catholic Church is too nationalistic.
This nationalism is vital !
And again , it does not diminish the ecclesiastical and spiritual value of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church for the not - Ukrainians.

 

[wmlillie]

I do not believe as Emmanuel mentioned , that if the one does not speak Ukrainian in the UGCC , he will go to hell ,
but there are the Ukrainians in Ukraine who live 30 – 40 years in Ukrainian speaking areas in their own country and do not speak Ukrainian.

What about the UGCC in America? By this thinking then Ukrainians in America should speak and worship in English.

That’s the reason why I think that the Nationalism of the UGCC is very important and vital for Ukraine !
We need to begin to learn ( to begin to make the first steps ) of how to love , respect , and fight for our country !
Therefore I deny that Ukrainian Catholic Church is too nationalistic.
This nationalism is vital !

Ukrainian Nationalism might be vital for Ukraine, but is it healthy for the UGCC in America? Most members of the UGCC in America or Canada are no longer Ukrainian Citizens, so how do they celebrate their ethnic heritage while maintaining their American/Canadian identity?

Mike

 

[Athanasiy]

What about the UGCC in America? By this thinking then Ukrainians in America should speak and worship in English.

Ukrainian Nationalism might be vital for Ukraine, but is it healthy for the UGCC in America? Most members of the UGCC in America or Canada are no longer Ukrainian Citizens, so how do they celebrate their ethnic heritage while maintaining their American/Canadian identity?

Mike

Its important , for the citizen of the country to speak the language of the country.
And if the English speaking citizen , worships in Ukrainian in the Sunday Divine service it does not make him less respected citizen of the country.
He is Ukrainian - Canadian and Ukrainian - American , and he shouldn’t forget his language , traditions and roots.

 

[Emmanuel85]

I speak about the attitude of the Pastors and preachers of some Evangelical Churches even on the West of Ukraine , who till now do not speak Ukrainian , but are preaching , singing , and having service in Russian language.
…
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church vice versa , is teaching me to be Ukrainian .
And to love Ukraine .
The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is teaching me , that spirituality has a lot to do with loving your country , respecting your culture , tradition and identity.
Therefore I do not see in Ukrainian nationalism nothing negative .
Even if some one is not Ukrainian he can be the member of Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

Thank you for your comments. I am happy to hear that a Greek Catholic from our mother Church in Ukraine is open to seeing non-Ukrainians be a part of this beloved Church. As you rightly point it, Christian spirituality does teach one to love their country. This is a healthy form of nationalism.
However, as Soloviev pointed out, the gift of being a part of the Catholic Church is that we are part not only of the local oikoumene but also of the universal (hence, ‘catholic’) Church. This was one of his concerns with the Orthodox Churches, which tend to be heavily divided along nationalistic boundaries (even though that is not their identity nor mission, but tends to be the case). The Eastern Catholic Churches, unfortunately, have tended to follow suit. I remember someone who once mentioned to me that if the Catholic Church were to evangelize, this mission would fall to the Roman Church, since that is what they do. As we know, the Second Vatican Council proclaimed that the mission of Jesus Christ has not left the Eastern Churches exempt. Otherwise, they would not be Christian and should thus cease to exist.

 

[Emmanuel85]

I do not believe as Emmanuel mentioned , that if the one does not speak Ukrainian in the UGCC , he will go to hell ,
but there are the Ukrainians in Ukraine who live 30 – 40 years in Ukrainian speaking areas in their own country and do not speak Ukrainian.
Among them the Pastors of Evangelical communities , who preach about the high achievements in spirituality , not realizing the elementary thing - the necessity to learn the language of the country where they are from.

…

That’s the reason why I think that the Nationalism of the UGCC is very important and vital for Ukraine !
We need to begin to learn ( to begin to make the first steps ) of how to love , respect , and fight for our country !
Therefore I deny that Ukrainian Catholic Church is too nationalistic.
This nationalism is vital !
And again , it does not diminish the ecclesiastical and spiritual value of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church for the not - Ukrainians.

Thank you for your assurance that I am not going to hell because I don’t speak Ukrainian. Although, I must admit, it is a beautiful language and I hope to learn it one day!

I’m not sure I’m convinced that the burden of educating people in their country’s customs and traditions falls to the Church. Maybe I am wrong on this, but I would see it as more a concerted effort on the part of a wide range of organizations (such as schools, museums, cultural groups, and Church, etc.) rather than the Church alone. I would also think that the Church shouldn’t be primary, while the others come second, but that they should all work together. A good part of this ‘re-training’ would have to begin with the family from the time of childhood onwards. Does this sound reasonable?

I wish to highlight that my experience showed that some, not all, people are too nationalistic. They had their priorities wrong. They excluded people (including myself) on the basis of nationality and ethnicity, not realizing that these people were actually in the process of finding God in our Church. They include people from all races and walks of life, who just want to pray, love God, and serve others. I would want them to be in my Church with me.

 

[Emmanuel85]

Its important , for the citizen of the country to speak the language of the country.
And if the English speaking citizen , worships in Ukrainian in the Sunday Divine service it does not make him less respected citizen of the country.
He is Ukrainian - Canadian and Ukrainian - American , and he shouldn’t forget his language , traditions and roots.

Fair enough, but more often than not I have found fourth generation people who have forgotten their roots one way or another. My concern is this: where do these people fit in now? How can we make them feel welcome without throwing them into another culture they have never even heard about or experienced? This will be a great challenge, but I think we can do it!

 

[wmlillie]

Its important , for the citizen of the country to speak the language of the country.
And if the English speaking citizen , worships in Ukrainian in the Sunday Divine service it does not make him less respected citizen of the country.

Absolutely not, but you were you not alluding that this might be the case when talking about the Evangelicals in Ukraine.

there are the Ukrainians in Ukraine who live 30 – 40 years in Ukrainian speaking areas in their own country and do not speak Ukrainian.
Among them the Pastors of Evangelical communities , who preach about the high achievements in spirituality , not realizing the elementary thing - the necessity to learn the language of the country where they are from.