Eastern Catholicism's Relationship with Western Theology and Tradition

  • Thread starter Thread starter Josephene
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Lets look at how this went…

Year 588, the Patriarch of Constantinople declares himself the 'Universal Patriarch ’ , in opposition to the Holy Father , who warned him and humbly kept the title of Patriarch of the West ,only having gotten rid of that title , in these times, when The Church faithfully carried out its mission to make disciples of all nations and is spread far and wide - Africa , the East …

That same year 588 is also noteworthy - Mohammed is 18 y.o !

OK I’m following for the sake of arguement, but what Mohammad turning 18 has to do with anything I’m not catching.

Wouldn’t that be about the same as saying in 588 etc etc etc happened, Oh, and it rained in China that day. :)🤷

Now if it said Mohammad was born that day, wrote the Quran, won an impossible battle, anything but that he turned 18. however…

What is the significance of Mohammad turning 18? Follow?
 
GaryTaylor said:
Lets look at how this went…

Year 588, the Patriarch of Constantinople declares himself the 'Universal Patriarch ’ , in opposition to the Holy Father , who warned him and humbly kept the title of Patriarch of the West ,only having gotten rid of that title , in these times, when The Church faithfully carried out its mission to make disciples of all nations and is spread far and wide - Africa , the East …

That same year 588 is also noteworthy - Mohammed is 18 y.o !

OK I’m following for the sake of arguement, but what Mohammad turning 18 has to do with anything I’m not catching.

Wouldn’t that be about the same as saying in 588 etc etc etc happened, Oh, and it rained in China that day. :)🤷

Now if it said Mohammad was born that day, wrote the Quran, won an impossible battle, anything but that he turned 18. however…

What is the significance of Mohammad turning 18? Follow?
Click to expand...
Apologies - had not realised that the comment was for clarification ; the connection between onset of Islam , esp. considering its role in The East ( Mohammed starting his mission, supposedly in 600 A.D , at age 30 ! ) and division in The Church seems relevant - thus the connection to the significant event of 588 and # 18 , for 6X3 ; may be irrelevant …may be not !

Peace !
 
Josephene said:
Not having followed at all the now deleted thread on this topic , hoping that sharing some perspectives would not tread unduly on any toes !

The current thread , on the adlimina visits in thissection of the forums also discusses some pertinent issues .

The Eastern Catholics are in an enviable position to be peacemakers , through justice …

And for that to happen , we may have to tread the history back to Constantinople and Hagia Sophia … …

This maginificent Cathedral was dedicated , in the year 360 ( 6x6 x10 ! ) , with an icon of our Lord , as a FEMALE! to equate Him, with the created wisdom , personified in the Old Testament !

Plagues , earthquakes etc follow !

Year 588, the Patriarch of Constantinople declares himself the 'Universal Patriarch ’ , in opposition to the Holy Father , who warned him and humbly kept the title of Patriarch of the West ,only having gotten rid of that title , in these times, when The Church faithfully carried out its mission to make disciples of all nations and is spread far and wide - Africa , the East …

That same year 588 is also noteworthy - Mohammed is 18 y.o !

Year 589 - the Council in Spain is led to make some reparation , ascribiing the rightful role of The Son , in sending forth the Spirit …

Sadly , instead of helping things along , by givinng honor to our Lord who had declared - 'if you have seen Me, you have seen The Father ’ and had called the Apostles ‘children’ atleast on 3 occasions , this truth also gets used for furthur divisions …

The Church , led by The Spirit of truth, meanwhile gets led into 'all truth ’ - including God’s goodness to our Mother , in granting Her the role in the New Creation , as the New Eve - including the privilege of being concieved in the mystery of Immaculate nature , by her holy parents …to be able to accept with total trust , the awesome , supernatural mystery of Incarnation - when we recognise how in the Jewish custom, a female is not even allowed in the holy of holies , gives us an idea of the extent of trust such an act would entail - to undo the lack of trust of our first parents !

And we are then led furthur , to the goodness of our Father , for our sake too , who rewards Her by not just ’ falling asleep ’ but assuming Her , into heaven ; by asking us to believe in same,with the certainity of a Dogma , we thus are being led more into grasping the dignity of our human nature , at a time when we could easily loose sight of same ; also to help us of the certainity of the Motherly help and love that many need and yearn for , in these times - since She is the enemy of our enemy !

Granting too , for The Church , in these confusing times, the gift of Dogma of papal infallibilty , again empowering us with the trust needed that by taking in these essential guidelines to walk the narrow path confidantly , we are spared much !

Thus, we come to the issues of holiness in marriage , priestly celibacy - both may be even requiring heroic holiness , in our times !

And the Church trustingly tell us - we can , esp. so , if we embrace with trust the Dogmas of our faith too , to empower our nature , in The Spirit .

Thus , in union with The Lord’s will , offering up all thoughts, words and deeds, including adlimina visits, or even the failings and call for mercy , all of it to become powerful occasions for for the infilling of The Spirit , all through The Church ,…

for the cause of unity …and all the tremendous fruit that can come from same , as has been partially witnessed by efforts of esp. Pope John Paul11 , in the fall of communism !

Thus , the Cardinal’s words can be seen for what it is - a privileged invitation to be strong and very fruitful members …this esp. important for those of the East may be , whose mission has been thwarted for various reasons , down through the centuries - it might have been the error of falling into the caste system mentality for some , that prevenetd them from having been faithful to the Lord 's mission and now have a chance to make up for all that , by shedding away destructive old traditions, without fear that we are being subjected to the same caste system discrimination , that instead , we are led more into all truth , to strenghten all !
Code: 
 Blessings !
Click to expand...
Wow, is this the official teaching of your Church? In what magisterial documents may I find more details?
 
Cavaradossi said:
Wow, is this the official teaching of your Church? In what magisterial documents may I find more details?
Click to expand...
Well, as can be inferred , the Dogmatic parts in there are the teachings of The Church , for all , esp. so for Catholics ; the obsevations on the historical events are just that , in efforts to help to find the path back !

Peace !
 
Josephene said:
Not having followed at all the now deleted thread on this topic
Click to expand...
… the following is nonetheless concluded:
Josephene said:
Thus , the Cardinal’s words can be seen for what it is - a privileged invitation to be strong and very fruitful members …this esp. important for those of the East may be , whose mission has been thwarted for various reasons , down through the centuries - it might have been the error of falling into the caste system mentality for some , that prevenetd them from having been faithful to the Lord 's mission and now have a chance to make up for all that , by shedding away destructive old traditions, without fear that we are being subjected to the same caste system discrimination , that instead , we are led more into all truth , to strenghten all !
Click to expand...
In summary:
  • The mission of the Eastern Churches was thwarted
  • The reason provided was a “caste system mentality”
  • The result was that these Churches were “prevented” from being faithful to the Lord’s mission
  • The Eastern Churches can make up for this failure by “shedding away destructive old traditions”
Thus, it is clearly concluded that the married priesthood is/was a “destructive” tradition.

Further, it is concluded that the Eastern Churches have lived in failure and error for hundreds of years, simply because of a self-imposed sense of inferiority, entirely through their own fault.

The Cardinal has offered the means by which to cure all of this, that is, by the Eastern Churches shedding their rightful traditions and disciplines, most prominently, the married priesthood.
 
The mention of the 'destructive traditions ’ was not about married clergy per se but about the history of walking away from The Church , based on dissidence over such a rather peripheral issue , into a system that have traditions that are destructive ; those destructive traditions vary depending on the history of the particular Church - caste system influence only one of them : for others , it may be the reluctanace to accept the Dogmas , even for fear of appearing disloyal to the Orthodox traditions , whereas embracing same could be what gives the protection against undue temptations , to become disloyal so easily !

Peace !
 
Josephene said:
The mention of the 'destructive traditions ’ was not about married clergy per se but about the history of walking away from The Church , based on dissidence over such a rather peripheral issue , into a system that have traditions that are destructive ; those destructive traditions vary depending on the history of the particular Church - caste system influence only one of them : for others , it may be the reluctanace to accept the Dogmas , even for fear of appearing disloyal to the Orthodox traditions , whereas embracing same could be what gives the protection against undue temptations , to become disloyal so easily !
Click to expand...
So the Eastern Catholic Churches have been systematically disloyal …
 
ByzCathCantor said:
So the Eastern Catholic Churches have been systematically disloyal …
Click to expand...
Let us not ignore parts of that sentence ; it says ’ protection againts temptations to become disloyal .’ : as to the Churches or persons being disloyal , The Lord alone is the judge and thankfully , as a reverse of that , there are possibly many in Orthodox and other churches, who already do or would cherish the Dogmas of The Church , to varying levels or are not against same and thus are in better communion than we might judge !
 
Josephene said:
Let us not ignore parts of that sentence ; it says ’ protection againts temptations to become disloyal .’ : as to the Churches or persons being disloyal , The Lord alone is the judge and thankfully , as a reverse of that , there are possibly many in Orthodox and other churches, who already do or would cherish the Dogmas of The Church , to varying levels or are not against same and thus are in better communion than we might judge !
Click to expand...
So a celebate priesthood is necessary “protection [against] temptations to become disloyal”. Very intriguing.

Yet, the Orthodox (with married priests among their clergy) may be doing a better job of embracing the dogmas of the Church. Equally intriguing.

And yes, the Lord alone is judge, and we can be thankful of that (or so we hope).
 
:
Please reread the part of the sentence below -

" for others , it may be the reluctanace to accept the Dogmas , even for fear of appearing disloyal to the Orthodox traditions , whereas embracing same could be what gives the protection against undue temptations , to become disloyal so easily ! "

Peace !

Hope that would answer again , the issue you are raising , unless it is intentionally wanting to misrepresent words ; if not, pay attention to the mention about the Dogmas as protection !
 
Josephene said:
:
Please reread the part of the sentence below -

" for others , it may be the reluctanace to accept the Dogmas , even for fear of appearing disloyal to the Orthodox traditions , whereas embracing same could be what gives the protection against undue temptations , to become disloyal so easily ! "

Hope that would answer again , the issue you are raising , unless it is intentionally wanting to misrepresent words ; if not, pay attention to the mention about the Dogmas as protection !
Click to expand...
I truly have no intention of intentionally misrepresenting anyone.

However, this still seems to strongly suggest that the Eastern Catholic Churches are guilty of some kind of systematic error, and/or that their traditions and disciplines have or can lead to such. This IMHO very much misrepresents the witness and character of my Church.

You must understand how this sounds to an Eastern Catholic (or fellow Orthodox Christian, for that matter). In charity, please try to see that what you suggest here is potentially hurtful to fellow Catholics who, in many cases, have suffered greatly to remain faithful to the Catholic Church.

Yet, perhaps I am incapable of understanding your point, and will leave it at that. 🤷

S’Bohom!
 
Josephene said:
:
Please reread the part of the sentence below -

" for others , it may be the reluctanace to accept the Dogmas , even for fear of appearing disloyal to the Orthodox traditions , whereas embracing same could be what gives the protection against undue temptations , to become disloyal so easily ! "

Peace !
Click to expand...
Hope that would answer again , the issue you are raising , unless it is intentionally wanting to misrepresent words ; if not, pay attention to the mention about the Dogmas as protection !

Please remember that dogmas are a western solution to western theological problems.
 
Josephene said:
:
Please reread the part of the sentence below -

" for others , it may be the reluctanace to accept the Dogmas , even for fear of appearing disloyal to the Orthodox traditions , whereas embracing same could be what gives the protection against undue temptations , to become disloyal so easily ! "

Peace !

Hope that would answer again , the issue you are raising , unless it is intentionally wanting to misrepresent words ; if not, pay attention to the mention about the Dogmas as protection !
Click to expand...
Please remember that dogmas are a western solution to western theological problems.
 
Cristiano said:
Please remember that dogmas are a western solution to western theological problems.
Click to expand...
This isn’t completely true. The dogmas that are currently divisive between the East and West are, in fact, Western solutions to Western theological problems, as you say. But not all dogmas are. In fact, the central dogmas of our Faith are actually Eastern solutions to Eastern problems. The Creed itself, recited every Sunday at the Mass/Divine Liturgy/Qurbono, etc. was actually drawn up at an Eastern Council in response to Eastern issues. It was then slightly revised at yet another Eastern Council, responding once again to Eastern theological issues. The West did little more than put their stamp of approval on the final product. 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top