Eastern Catholics and Purgatory

[ConstantineTG]

But we don’t have to call it purgatory.

You’re right. Devoutchristian needs to prove that our beliefs are heretical before dismissing what we can or cannot believe in.

I don’t really get this wave after wave of Latins coming here telling us what we should believe in when they have absolutely no clue what we believe in.

 

[griego_catolico]

And that is canon number…

Canon 598 - All that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church and also proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, must be believed with divine and catholic faith; it is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore, all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatever which are contrary to these truths.
§2. Furthermore, each and every thing set forth definitively by the magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions that are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Canon 598 - All that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church and also proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, must be believed with divine and catholic faith; it is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore, all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatever which are contrary to these truths.
§2. Furthermore, each and every thing set forth definitively by the magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, **anyone who rejects propositions that are to be held definitively sets himself against **the teaching of the Catholic Church.

And can you please point to me which Eastern teaching is contrary to anything professed by Latin Catholics?

 

[griego_catolico]

And can you please point to me which Eastern teaching is contrary to anything professed by Latin Catholics?

The canon is from the Code of Canons of Eastern Churches, so you will have to rephrase your question.

You have as yet to cite a Church document that supports your position.

 

[Vico]

The Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches applies to you. It doesn’t matter how much you dislike it and try to rationalize it, the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches applies to you and you are bound to believe in Purgatory. There’s no in between position on orthodoxy.

ConstantineTG said before that he is Latin Catholic. So CIC applies for him.

For eastern Catholics, are you referring to the following canons?

CCEO TITLE 15 The Ecclesiastical Magisterium

Canon 598

§ 1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All Christian faithful are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

§ 2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

CCEO TITLE 27 Penal Sanctions in the Church

Canon 1436

§ 1. Whoever denies a truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or who calls into doubt, or who totally repudiates the Christian faith, and does not retract after having been legitimately warned, is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with a major excommunication; a cleric moreover can be punished with other penalties, not excluding deposition.

§ 2. In addition to these cases, whoever obstinately rejects a teaching that the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising the authentic Magisterium, have set forth to be held definitively, or who affirms what they have condemned as erroneous, and does not retract after having been legitimately warned, is to be punished with an appropriate penalty.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The canon is from the Code of Canons of Eastern Churches, so you will have to rephrase your question.

You have as yet to cite a Church document that supports your position.

Sure thing:
ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM:

for it is the mind of the Catholic Church that each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire

ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM:

History, tradition and abundant ecclesiastical institutions bear outstanding witness to the great merit owing to the Eastern Churches by the universal Church.(5) The Sacred Council, therefore, not only accords to this ecclesiastical and spiritual heritage the high regard which is its due and rightful praise, but also unhesitatingly looks on it as the heritage of the universal Church. For this reason it solemnly declares that the Churches of the East, as much as those of the West, have a full right and are in duty bound to rule themselves, each in accordance with its own established disciplines, since all these are praiseworthy by reason of their venerable antiquity, more harmonious with the character of their faithful and more suited to the promotion of the good of souls.

ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM:

All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement. All these, then, must be observed by the members of the Eastern rites themselves. Besides, they should attain to an ever greater knowledge and a more exact use of them, and, if in their regard they have fallen short owing to contingencies of times and persons, they should take steps to return to their ancestral traditions.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html
ORIENTALE LUMEN:

Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church

ORIENTALE LUMEN:

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

ORIENTALE LUMEN:

a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church(2) which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html
ORIENTALIUM DIGNITAS:

Inasmuch as this diversity of liturgical form and discipline of the Eastern Churches is approved in law, besides its other merits, it has redounded tremendously to the glory and usefulness of the Church. They ought not figure any less as subjects of Our charge. So much is this the case that it is in the best interest of all that their discipline not haphazardly borrow anything that would be ill-suited from Western ministers of the Gospel whom love for Christ compels to go to those peoples.

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13orient.htm

Your move. What belief of ours are contrary to Roman Catholic faith?

 

[ConstantineTG]

ConstantineTG said before that he is Latin Catholic. So CIC applies for him.

Am I under trial here?

 

[chaldobyzantine]

All of this debate and we have yet to see scripture cited supporting the existence of purgatory. Nor has much been attributed to any of the early church fathers. The argument for the existence of purgatory so far seems to be some Saints have seen it and it’s part of Roman Catholic doctrine.

What I want to know is how or why it came to be accepted officially much after the division between East and West? What basis or foundations can we argue for its existence within scripture? In my option 1 Cor 3:15 seems to be the only possible foundation, but within its context it doesn’t convince me very much as solid evidence.

-God Bless.

 

[devoutchristian]

Sure thing:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13orient.htm

Your move. What belief of ours are contrary to Roman Catholic faith?

None of those say that you’re free to hold opinions contrary to the Church’s teachings.

 

[Vico]

Am I under trial here?

Not by me.

 

[twf]

No. Theosis teaches a continuing and ever increasing communion with God. There is growth even in heaven, and because God is infinite, the growth will never end. This growth is not brought about by pain and suffering because you are already in communion with God. Thus any further purification is achieved by growth in love with God and not by pain and/or suffering.

Purgatory certainly fits the Roman understanding of salvation. Whether it is consistent with Patristic teaching or not is beyond my pay grade though.

Really? Do you know of any Eastern Catholic Church that willfully remade their Church into the Roman Catholic Church, part of which is so that they won’t be persecuted by the Soviets. But also, like I said, they lost all their schools for the better part of a century. All the formation of their priests was done at Latin seminaries.

Constantine - let’s put aside purgatory for a minute, step back, and look at the more general premise of the necessity of suffering. I don’t understand how the East can reject the necessity of suffering (whether it is in this life or in the next) when Scripture is expliclitly clear on multiple occasions that all must suffer with Christ in order to share in His glory. We cannot expect to share in the resurrection without first sharing in the cross. I referenced several verses earlier in this thread - but there are literally dozens. Yes, deification is a very joyful experience, as we grow closer and closer to the Lord, but it can also be painful. How does the East explain suffering? For Latin Catholics, suffering is an opportunity to share in the cross of Christ, as St. Paul says in Col. 1:24.

 

[twf]

All of this debate and we have yet to see scripture cited supporting the existence of purgatory. Nor has much been attributed to any of the early church fathers. The argument for the existence of purgatory so far seems to be some Saints have seen it and it’s part of Roman Catholic doctrine.

What I want to know is how or why it came to be accepted officially much after the division between East and West? What basis or foundations can we argue for its existence within scripture? In my option 1 Cor 3:15 seems to be the only possible foundation, but within its context it doesn’t convince me very much as solid evidence.

-God Bless.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html has some interesting Scriptural and Patristic arguments. Please keep in mind that Purgatory as described by some Latin saints is not a binding concept…only that there is a purification of sorts after death and that the prayers of the Church can aid souls undergoing that purification.

 

[yawsep1569]

Really? Do you know of any Eastern Catholic Church that willfully remade their Church into the Roman Catholic Church, part of which is so that they won’t be persecuted by the Soviets. But also, like I said, they lost all their schools for the better part of a century. All the formation of their priests was done at Latin seminaries.

Well, I don’t want to get into a “most Latinized competition”, but I would suggest that the UGCC is not it. Aramis indicated that it might have been in the past, but it is certainly not the case today. I would suggest that my own church is a candidate for this “title”, having been dominated by the Portuguese for over 250 years. At least, the Maronites have had their own hierarchy for many centuries now. I have witnessed Syro-malabar priests wearing Latin vestments on multiple occasions even recently, as well as many other abuses. But let’s get back to purgatory.

The traditional Eastern objections to purgatory were over whether sins which have been forgiven need to be punished by God, and whether those who have died are cleansed by fire. We reject both propositions. Whether Eastern Catholics are able to reject such propositions is another matter, I suppose.

I think all Catholics are allowed to reject both these propositions:
catholic.com/quickquestions/are-catholics-to-believe-that-the-cleansing-fire-of-purgatory-is-real-physical-fire

 

[Maron_Ignatius]

The answer to the questions of do Eastern Catholics believe in purgatory is yes and no.

Eastern Catholics have to - after all they always have - believe in a state of transition/transformation/purification, they are not bound to believe it the way Latin Catholics do, also the name purgatory is more of a Latin name of this state. In the East it is at times referred to as theosis, final theosis, final purification, Sheol and I’ve seen a few other names for it, but just can’t remember as of this moment.

As St. John Chrysostum once wrote, “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and offer our prayers for them.”

 

[Maron_Ignatius]

The answer to the questions of do Eastern Catholics believe in purgatory is yes and no.

Eastern Catholics have to - after all they always have - believe in a state of transition/transformation/purification, they are not bound to believe it the way Latin Catholics do, also the name purgatory is more of a Latin name of this state. In the East it is at times referred to as theosis, final theosis, final purification, Sheol and I’ve seen a few other names for it, but just can’t remember as of this moment.

As St. John Chrysostum once wrote, “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and offer our prayers for them.”

Let me rephrase that “they are not bound to believe it the way Latin Catholics do” they are not bound to have a Latin perspective; also I want to express that Latins can use an Eastern perspective, they are not bound to using a Latin perspective.

 

[griego_catolico]

ConstantineTG said before that he is Latin Catholic. So CIC applies for him.

That doesn’t surprise me. From my personal experience, those who identify themselves as “Orthodox in communion with Rome” were originally Latin Catholic (often of a particular generation), join an Eastern Catholic parish, become overzealous, and try to become “more Eastern” than those who were baptized Eastern Catholic.

They identify themselves as Orthodox, but won’t leave their Eastern Catholic parish due to position or benefits they may receive and do not want to “start over” at an Eastern Orthodox parish.

Again, this is based on my own personal experience.

As it has been stated in several online forums, OCIWR is very vocal minority, the eastern form of “cafeteria Catholicism”.

At the Eastern Churches Encounter which I attended, I was very happy to see that the youth want the authentic Catholic faith. They want none of this OCIWR agenda.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Let’s make the question more precise, because I think everybody is talking past each other here. Are Eastern Catholics bound to believe that sins which have been forgiven still necessitate punishment, and that this punishment and cleansing is accomplished after death by means of purgatorial fire?

It is not as if the East has traditionally rejected the existence of some intermediate state where the souls of the departed may be helped by the prayers of the faithful. What traditionally has been rejected is the belief that sin, even when forgiven, demands satisfaction (either through acts of propitiation in this life or through suffering the purgatorial fire after death), and that the bishop of Rome has the supreme authority to remit this punishment through indulgences.

 

[Aramis]

You’re right. Devoutchristian needs to prove that our beliefs are heretical before dismissing what we can or cannot believe in.

I don’t really get this wave after wave of Latins coming here telling us what we should believe in when they have absolutely no clue what we believe in.

Constantine, my friend, Think back to when you first encountered the UGCC teachings…

We Byzantines don’t teach Purgatory as such by that name.

But we accept the dogmatic definition pretty much as it is expressed in the Catholic Encyclopediaurgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

and in the CCC:
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

Note that the tradition of the cleansing fire is alien to the East, but is not stated as dogma, merely Tradition (capital T). Tormenting by demons, however… and a long hard road… Different symbologies for the same process/state

Posthumous Theosis (liturgically taught in the Byzantine DL in all Byzantine Rite Churches) is the dogmatic purgatory.

Refs:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

 

[Denho]

As it has been stated in several online forums, OCIWR is very vocal minority, the eastern form of “cafeteria Catholicism”.

At the Eastern Churches Encounter which I attended, I was very happy to see that the youth want the authentic Catholic faith. They want none of this OCIWR agenda.

:banghead:
If people just want a generic no-brand “Catholicism:” then the Eastern Churches should just pack up and call it a day. We either have distinct theology and spirituality or we don’t. If we have nothing to offer other than different vestments and funny music then it is all just a sham.

 

[devoutchristian]

Let’s make the question more precise, because I think everybody is talking past each other here. Are Eastern Catholics bound to believe that sins which have been forgiven still necessitate punishment, and that this punishment and cleansing is accomplished after death by means of purgatorial fire?

The fruitfulness of indulgences has been defined so yes to the first question and no to the second question.

It is not as if the East has traditionally rejected the existence of some intermediate state where the souls of the departed may be helped by the prayers of the faithful. What traditionally has been rejected is the belief that sin, even when forgiven, demands satisfaction (either through acts of propitiation in this life or through suffering the purgatorial fire after death), and that the bishop of Rome has the supreme authority to remit this punishment through indulgences.

To be even more specific, do the Orthodox object to the notion of a forgiven sin still necessitating purification, or do they merely object to the idea of satisfaction separated from sanctification (which is not what the Catholic Church teaches).

:banghead:
If people just want a generic no-brand “Catholicism:” then the Eastern Churches should just pack up and call it a day. We either have distinct theology and spirituality or we don’t. If we have nothing to offer other than different vestments and funny music then it is all just a sham.

Perhaps you wouldn’t have a problem if you didn’t arbitrarily classify Catholic teachings as “non-Eastern”