Eastern Catholics and Purgatory

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devoutchristian said:
Perhaps you wouldn’t have a problem if you didn’t arbitrarily classify Catholic teachings as “non-Eastern”
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Arbitrarily? :confused:

There are many things that are distinct between Latin, Byzantine, Antiochene, Alexandrian, and Chaldean, etc, theologies. You think that it is only a dichotomy between West and East?

You just have to admit that so-called “Catholic teachings” aren’t monolithic. Legitimate diversity exists, and has always existed - even in theology.
 
Denho said:
Legitimate diversity exists, and has always existed - even in theology.
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Of course it does. That does not, however, mean that different required beliefs are imposed upon Catholics of different rites.
 
devoutchristian said:
Of course it does. That does not, however, mean that different required beliefs are imposed upon Catholics of different rites.
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Ecclesiology works both ways. Our theology teaches us that our Liturgy contains our “required beliefs.” Our liturgy tells us that Mary died at her Dormition and the Eucharist is confected at the Epiclesis. Do you accept that you are therefore required to believe this since we are “in communion” with each other?

Also. We are not to speak of “Catholics of different rites.” We are Churches. Catholics are members of Churches, they worship according to a rite.
 
I don’t know how many people, if any in the EC churches, are attempting to make the case that everyone is required to believe in Purgatory, but I do know that there are more than a few Eastern Catholics who do believe in it, and to them it is now part of there tradition.
 
Seamus_L said:
I don’t know how many people, if any in the EC churches, are attempting to make the case that everyone is required to believe in Purgatory, but I do know that there are more than a few Eastern Catholics who do believe in it, and to them it is now part of there tradition.
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You cannot, despite the efforts of some, “invent” tradition. The very word tradition does not allow for this. It is inorganic and inauthentic. Rome, since many seem to think the opinion of Rome matters the most, has made it abundantly clear that the Eastern and Oriental churches are not to unnecessarily differentiate themselves from their Orthodox counterparts. Purgatory, as expressed in Scholastic terms, is not, has not, and will never be part of Eastern Tradition.
 
Denho said:
Our theology teaches us that our Liturgy contains our “required beliefs.”
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The Church dictates the required beliefs of Catholics.
Denho said:
Our liturgy tells us that Mary died at her Dormition and the Eucharist is confected at the Epiclesis. Do you accept that you are therefore required to believe this since we are “in communion” with each other?
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Pope Pius XII taught that Mary died, therefore that teaching is authoritative for all Catholics. The time to confect the Eucharist is a liturgical practice, not a belief.
Denho said:
Rome, since many seem to think the opinion of Rome matters the most, has made it abundantly clear that the Eastern and Oriental churches are not to unnecessarily differentiate themselves from their Orthodox counterparts.
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Source?
 
devoutchristian said:
The Church dictates the required beliefs of Catholics.

Pope Pius XII taught that Mary died, therefore that teaching is authoritative for all Catholics. The time to confect the Eucharist is a liturgical practice, not a belief.

Source?
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Lex orandi, my friend. The regard the West places on encyclicals, bulls, canons, and catechisms the East and Orient places on its Liturgy.

Scholastic manualists would lead you to believe the “moment of consecration at the words of Institution” was a dogma. Our Faith says it is the entire Anaphora and is accomplished at the Epiclesis. The Church of the East does not even include the Words of Institution in one of its anaphorae. Many of the West Syriac anaphorae use the second or third person:
When He willed to taste death on our behalf and to fulfill the Paschal feast, in the evening He took bread in His hands. He Blessed + + and sanctified + and broke and gave the group of His apostles, and said: Take, eat of it for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal.
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When he was prepared for the redemptive passion, in the bread which by Him was blessed + + +, broken and divided unto His holy apostles, He gave us His propitiatory Body for life eternal.
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When He prepared for the redemptive passion, he took bread and blessed + + and sanctified + and broke, and called it His Holy Body for eternal life for those who receive it.
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This might be problematic on those of the Latin Church who seek to impose a rigid scholastic view on “The Church.”

As to Rome, She has said in the Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches:
In every effort of liturgical renewal, therefore, the practice of the Orthodox brethren should be taken into account, knowing it, respecting it and distancing from it as little as possible so as not to increase the existing separation, but rather intensifying efforts in view of eventual adaptations, maturing and working together. Thus will be manifested the unity that already subsists in daily receiving the same spiritual nourishment from practicing the same common heritage.26
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devoutchristian said:
That wasn’t talking about theology.
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From the same:
  1. The Eastern heritage is more than just liturgy
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Certainly, the tendency to reduce the specific heritage of the Eastern Churches to just its liturgical dimension should not be encouraged. The attraction exerted by the sacredness of the rites, the intense emotion arising from the poetic dimension of the texts, has possibly led to an excessive emphasis of the exterior or emotional aspect, an easy place of refuge for those who deny the liturgy its necessary link with life. This is what has sometimes led the same Eastern Catholics to perceive only the liturgical patrimony as being specifically their own, conforming themselves instead, for the other aspects of spirituality, to the Western sensibility considered as common to the Universal Church. Rather, the value of Eastern*** theologies*** and spiritualities, understood as part of the undivided heritage of the Universal Church, is a fairly recent discovery, as is the emergence of the importance of particular disciplines.
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The practice of the Eastern liturgy without its entire heritage flowing into it, as into its highest expression, would** risk reducing it to pure superficiality**.
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From UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO from Vatican II:
  1. What has just been said about the lawful variety that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in theological expression of doctrine. In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God’s truth. It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage. In such cases,** these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting**. Where the authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we** must recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture, and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy**. They derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a** full vision of Christian truth**.
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All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church. We thank God that many*** Eastern children of the Catholic Church, who preserve this heritage, and wish to express it more faithfully and completely in their lives, are already living in full communion with their brethren who follow the tradition of the West***.
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  1. After taking all these factors into consideration, this Sacred Council solemnly repeats the declaration of previous Councils and Roman Pontiffs, that for the restoration or the maintenance of unity and communion it is necessary*** “to impose no burden beyond what is essential”***.[38]
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Seamus_L said:
I don’t know how many people, if any in the EC churches, are attempting to make the case that everyone is required to believe in Purgatory, but I do know that there are more than a few Eastern Catholics who do believe in it, and to them it is now part of there tradition.
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Another he said, she said claim. C’mon Seamus, substantiate for once. All this, “I know someone, I heard someone, etc.” business doesn’t really prove anything.
 
devoutchristian said:
None of those say that you’re free to hold opinions contrary to the Church’s teachings.
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Again, please tell me if our non-acceptance of Purgatory is contrary to Church teaching. You haven’t proven any of your claims.
 
twf said:
Constantine - let’s put aside purgatory for a minute, step back, and look at the more general premise of the necessity of suffering. I don’t understand how the East can reject the necessity of suffering (whether it is in this life or in the next) when Scripture is expliclitly clear on multiple occasions that all must suffer with Christ in order to share in His glory. We cannot expect to share in the resurrection without first sharing in the cross. I referenced several verses earlier in this thread - but there are literally dozens. Yes, deification is a very joyful experience, as we grow closer and closer to the Lord, but it can also be painful. How does the East explain suffering? For Latin Catholics, suffering is an opportunity to share in the cross of Christ, as St. Paul says in Col. 1:24.
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Sure, we suffer in this world, but there is no evidence that there is any suffering in the next life. The suffering of Christ on the cross happened in this life, that is why he put on flesh, to partake of our lives so that we can partake in His.
 
Maron_Ignatius said:
The answer to the questions of do Eastern Catholics believe in purgatory is yes and no.

Eastern Catholics have to - after all they always have - believe in a state of transition/transformation/purification, they are not bound to believe it the way Latin Catholics do, also the name purgatory is more of a Latin name of this state. In the East it is at times referred to as theosis, final theosis, final purification, Sheol and I’ve seen a few other names for it, but just can’t remember as of this moment.

As St. John Chrysostum once wrote, “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and offer our prayers for them.”
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Definitely! But Purgatory is more than what we believe in about prayers for the dead. As I said over and over again, we do that and we do not contest that. But purgatory has extended that belief, even stretching all the way to indulgences. And I’m glad we do not practice indulgences.
 
Denho said:
From the same:
  1. The Eastern heritage is more than just liturgy
Certainly, the tendency to reduce the specific heritage of the Eastern Churches to just its liturgical dimension should not be encouraged. The attraction exerted by the sacredness of the rites, the intense emotion arising from the poetic dimension of the texts, has possibly led to an excessive emphasis of the exterior or emotional aspect, an easy place of refuge for those who deny the liturgy its necessary link with life. This is what has sometimes led the same Eastern Catholics to perceive only the liturgical patrimony as being specifically their own, conforming themselves instead, for the other aspects of spirituality, to the Western sensibility considered as common to the Universal Church. Rather, the value of Eastern theologies and spiritualities, understood as part of the undivided heritage of the Universal Church, is a fairly recent discovery, as is the emergence of the importance of particular disciplines.

The practice of the Eastern liturgy without its entire heritage flowing into it, as into its highest expression, would risk reducing it to pure superficiality.

From UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO from Vatican II:
Click to expand...
  1. What has just been said about the lawful variety that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in theological expression of doctrine. In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God’s truth. It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage. In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting. Where the authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we must recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture, and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy. They derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a full vision of Christian truth.
Click to expand...
All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church. We thank God that many Eastern children of the Catholic Church, who preserve this heritage, and wish to express it more faithfully and completely in their lives, are already living in full communion with their brethren who follow the tradition of the West.
Click to expand...
  1. After taking all these factors into consideration, this Sacred Council solemnly repeats the declaration of previous Councils and Roman Pontiffs, that for the restoration or the maintenance of unity and communion it is necessary “to impose no burden beyond what is essential”.[38]
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I also want to add:
“All in the Church must preserve unity in essentials. But let all, according to the gifts they have received enjoy a proper freedom, in their various forms of spiritual life and discipline, in-their different liturgical rites, and even in their theological elaborations of revealed truth,” (UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO, no. 4).
 
devoutchristian said:
Perhaps you wouldn’t have a problem if you didn’t arbitrarily classify Catholic teachings as “non-Eastern”
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Latin Teaching ≠ Catholic teaching
Catholic teaching is the common subset of Latin, Byzantine, Coptic, Ethiopian, Syrian, Chaldean, and Armenian Teachings, plus the dogmas (which all share).
 
devoutchristian said:
To be even more specific, do the Orthodox object to the notion of a forgiven sin still necessitating purification, or do they merely object to the idea of satisfaction separated from sanctification (which is not what the Catholic Church teaches).
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We reject any sort of thinking whereby God punishes the sinner in the intermediate state for forgiven sins. The sole punishment due for sins is the fire of hell, and this fire’s purpose is neither to correct nor to heal the sinner.
 
I’ve read this entire forum for reasons too numerous to mention.
One, I have a headache.
Two, a simple question started it all.
Three, I read it and still can’t decide if there was any final and/or mutual consensus.
Four, It makes me think that when religion becomes this dissected, it ceases to be religion.Maybe, I don’t know; I can’t think for reading this forum that became a argument.
Five, I just wanted that same simple answer, not that there are many out there, but they do exist, sometimes…
Six, and I wonder if there should be a six, this forum is a wonderful example of why it has been so profoundly tempting to avoid joining - as I like to call them - a four-walled organized religion. And I do not mean that to be disparaging. Yet my devout and Christian faith is stronger than ever. And not to throw a wrench into this argument, but Jesus uses the word Kingdom far more often than He mentions the word Church. That’s a thought to ponder. Perhaps for me, the world is His kingdom; a stepping stone of hope into the everlasting kingdom when I die. Whatever it takes, whatever He wants, however way He wants to do it, I am willing. And without so much analysis.:ouch:
 
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