Eastern Catholics, are we really Catholic?

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anamchrist said:
Funny, over and over the Vatican and the Popes have told us to be fully Eastern. Aren’t we supposed to follow our understanding of these doctrines? Since when are we obliged to Latin theology? We are called to be Orthodox in Union with Rome. Not Romans in Eastern vestments. We have our own theology and understanding of dogma. That is our right.
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Being fully Eastern does not mean abandoning the teachings of the Church and, thus, attacking the unity of the Body of Christ.
 
Ungcsertez said:
Go to any Ruthenian (and Hungarian) parish in the “Pyrohi Rust Belt” and look in the basement closets. I bet 99% of them have stacks of “Baltimore Catechist”, right next to the photo of Bishop Elko (dressed in mantiya, mitre, crozier and"'episcopal gloves")😉

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

U-C
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That’s a good thing, since we are supposed to have a common faith.
 
kitkatty said:
Well I can go an even better one,. The Byzantine Hungarian parish (to anyone to whom ethnicity matters) somewhere around 1970 there was even a May crowning. Can`t ever remember the Sacred Heart, orecious blood or any of that from that parish. My knowledge of those devotions came strictly from the Latin Church.
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…those Latin devotions continued on through the 1990’s in some parishes. The are captured for posterity in every parish anniversary book!

Hail Holy Queen entronded above, O Marija…!

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

U-C
 
Patchunky said:
Get that stuff outta our basement:mad:

We just cleaned it out to make room for the dough rolling machine:thumbsup:

www.patronagechurch.com
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Let’s say I as king of the world order all of it be removed and donated to the FSSP. I just now ordered my minions to remove Elko’s gloves, the statuary at Maria Pocs, the Roman cassocks with red piping on monsignori (whose titles of honrorary prelates of the Papal household I have stripped and replaced with mitred archpriest and archimandrite…). I have covered all old black and white photos of first communion classes, and ordered the Johnstown Orthodox to do the same. I have ordered the babbas to take those statues of the Infant of Prague home and give them to their Polish neighbors, and I uprooted all lawn statues and donated them to cemetaries.

Boom. Done. There ya go. Merry Christmas.

Now can you get on to the business of speaking in positive terms about what changes you feel need to be made now that I have ordered all of the dust gathering Baltimore catechisms (untouched in so many years which have not seen the light of day since someone was looking for a broom last) are are no longer haunting your dreams like basement monsters?
 
Ungcsertez said:
…those Latin devotions continued on through the 1990’s in some parishes. The are captured for posterity in every parish anniversary book!

Hail Holy Queen entronded above, O Marija…!

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

U-C
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Yeah. you wouldn’t want to pray the Hail Holy queen. That would just be blaphemous for an Eastern Catholic. :rolleyes: (notice my eyes rolling)
 
Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb. For thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.
 
East_and_West said:
Yeah. you wouldn’t want to pray the Hail Holy queen. That would just be blaphemous for an Eastern Catholic. :rolleyes: (notice my eyes rolling)
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…no problen with that :

Radujsja, Carice, prekrasna D’jivice, Radujtesja ludije, radujtesja vsi nynji, Se bo chista D’jivca sijajet na tronji.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese!

U-C
 
Mickey said:
Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb. For thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.
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…Amin’! Amin’! Amin’!

X.B.! B.B.!

U-c
 
Ungcsertez said:
…no problen with that :

Radujsja, Carice, prekrasna D’jivice, Radujtesja ludije, radujtesja vsi nynji, Se bo chista D’jivca sijajet na tronji.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese!

U-C
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Aw. I don’t speak slavic. All I got is:
Ave Maria gratia plena,
Dominus te cum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pronobis peccatoribus,
nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
 
Mickey said:
Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb. For thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.
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Thank you for that Mickey.
 
As a Byzantine Catholic kid in the 50’s, “catechism class” for me consisted of trapsing over to the church basement on Saturday mornings with my sisters for two-hour catechism sessions. The text for the first hour was, indeed, the Baltimore Catechism and we were taught from it by visiting Benedictine nuns. Hour #2, however, was referred to as Liturgical Catechism, which our pastor, a Benedictine heiromonk, would himself teach. At this point, the class would take a decidely Eastern spin as we would discuss the “nuts ‘n’ bolts” of Catholic worship in the Eastern tradition. We had a separate text for this portion of our catechism class entitled (coincidentally) Liturgical Catechism - I remember very little about the text itself except that it was, indeed, decidely Eastern and not Latin - it may have even been an Orthodox publication; I just don’t recall. All the hand-drawn illustrations were of priests in Eastern vestments, temples with iconastos, etc. For example, I especially remember, even after these many decades, the particular drawing in the book that illustrated the proper arrangement of the Precious Gifts on the diskos.

Fr. Gregory’s approach was to stress that we were, indeed, Catholics, just as Catholic as our buddies across the tracks at the Roman Catholic St. Cyril’s Church, but that we practiced our Catholicism different thn they did, more like our relatives in the “old country” did. He was always quick to point out “differences” to us, as well as the “whys” behind those differences. Case in point: on Palm Sunday, our Roman Catholic friends received palms: we Byzantine Catholics, instead, received pussywillows because palms just didn’t grow in the “old country” where our ancestors were from so, since they substituted pussywillows, so did we.

You must remember in all this that we were mere kids. Dogmatic or theological discussions re: the Immaculate Conception, purgatory, etc. would have gone right over our heads at that time. Our entire catechism program stressed two very basic concepts:
  1. We were Catholics, and we believed what all Catholics believe.
  2. We were different from the Roman Catholics because we were Byzantines, and that was something we should be proud of.
And at that grade-school level, that was sufficient for us!

BTW - I served at the altar for the previously-mentioned +Bp. Elko (IIRC, I believe I held the dikeron and/or trikeron)… there were no “episcopol gloves” in sight and he certainly wore an Eastern crown (no mitre!) when visiting our parish.
 
a_pilgrim said:
As a Byzantine Catholic kid in the 50’s, “catechism class” for me consisted of trapsing over to the church basement on Saturday mornings with my sisters for two-hour catechism sessions. The text for the first hour was, indeed, the Baltimore Catechism and we were taught from it by visiting Benedictine nuns. Hour #2, however, was referred to as Liturgical Catechism, which our pastor, a Benedictine heiromonk, would himself teach. At this point, the class would take a decidely Eastern spin as we would discuss the “nuts ‘n’ bolts” of Catholic worship in the Eastern tradition. We had a separate text for this portion of our catechism class entitled (coincidentally) Liturgical Catechism - I remember very little about the text itself except that it was, indeed, decidely Eastern and not Latin - it may have even been an Orthodox publication; I just don’t recall. All the hand-drawn illustrations were of priests in Eastern vestments, temples with iconastos, etc. For example, I especially remember, even after these many decades, the particular drawing in the book that illustrated the proper arrangement of the Precious Gifts on the diskos.

Fr. Gregory’s approach was to stress that we were, indeed, Catholics, just as Catholic as our buddies across the tracks at the Roman Catholic St. Cyril’s Church, but that we practiced our Catholicism different thn they did, more like our relatives in the “old country” did. He was always quick to point out “differences” to us, as well as the “whys” behind those differences. Case in point: on Palm Sunday, our Roman Catholic friends received palms: we Byzantine Catholics, instead, received pussywillows because palms just didn’t grow in the “old country” where our ancestors were from so, since they substituted pussywillows, so did we.

You must remember in all this that we were mere kids. Dogmatic or theological discussions re: the Immaculate Conception, purgatory, etc. would have gone right over our heads at that time. Our entire catechism program stressed two very basic concepts:
  1. We were Catholics, and we believed what all Catholics believe.
  2. We were different from the Roman Catholics because we were Byzantines, and that was something we should be proud of.
And at that grade-school level, that was sufficient for us!

BTW - I served at the altar for the previously-mentioned +Bp. Elko (IIRC, I believe I held the dikeron and/or trikeron)… there were no “episcopol gloves” in sight and he certainly wore an Eastern crown (no mitre!) when visiting our parish.
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Pilgrim, your experience in the fifties was much like mine in the sixties, though we didn`t have the benefit of our priest participating in our catechism classes. Teacher was a woman of the parish and I can remember her going out of her way to make sure we made a proper sign of the cross, explaining the symbolism of the finger positions and also the significance of the three-barred cross and we certainly were taught that there was a difference between us and the Roman Catholics but we were taught we were Catholics. I agreee Immaculate Conception,etc. theological differences would have been way over our heads.
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Let’s say I as king of the world order all of it be removed and donated to the FSSP. I just now ordered my minions to remove Elko’s gloves, the statuary at Maria Pocs, the Roman cassocks with red piping on monsignori (whose titles of honrorary prelates of the Papal household I have stripped and replaced with mitred archpriest and archimandrite…). I have covered all old black and white photos of first communion classes, and ordered the Johnstown Orthodox to do the same. I have ordered the babbas to take those statues of the Infant of Prague home and give them to their Polish neighbors, and I uprooted all lawn statues and donated them to cemetaries.

Boom. Done. There ya go. Merry Christmas.

Now can you get on to the business of speaking in positive terms about what changes you feel need to be made now that I have ordered all of the dust gathering Baltimore catechisms (untouched in so many years which have not seen the light of day since someone was looking for a broom last) are are no longer haunting your dreams like basement monsters?
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didn’t bother to click on the link, did ya??🤷
 
Patchunky said:
didn’t bother to click on the link, did ya??🤷
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Wrong. I did.

What point are you getting at with the link?

Will we ever get back to the question of what revisions should be made or will we go the day recounting Balrimore Catechism stories?
 
Ungcsertez said:
So you feel that in order to be truly “Catholic”, we need to continue “Latinizations”, i.e. non organic Eastern practices?

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

U-C
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For church disciplines, of course not (kneeling, celibacy in priesthood and that kind of stuff) For church dogma, there is not any Latinizatinon, there is the one true church with papal infalibility and the Immacuate Conception was an infallible statement. I think Purgatory is up in the air but in my opinion it is in our best interest if it exists since the alternative is Hell so since I believe in a merciful God, I believe in Purgatory since there is the chance I might not be ready for Heaven when I die.
 
I’m confused with the question. Of course Eastern Catholics are Catholics.
 
a_pilgrim said:
As a Byzantine Catholic kid in the 50’s, “catechism class” for me consisted of trapsing over to the church basement on Saturday mornings with my sisters for two-hour catechism sessions. The text for the first hour was, indeed, the Baltimore Catechism and we were taught from it by visiting Benedictine nuns. Hour #2, however, was referred to as Liturgical Catechism, which our pastor, a Benedictine heiromonk, would himself teach. At this point, the class would take a decidely Eastern spin as we would discuss the “nuts ‘n’ bolts” of Catholic worship in the Eastern tradition. We had a separate text for this portion of our catechism class entitled (coincidentally) Liturgical Catechism - I remember very little about the text itself except that it was, indeed, decidely Eastern and not Latin - it may have even been an Orthodox publication; I just don’t recall. All the hand-drawn illustrations were of priests in Eastern vestments, temples with iconastos, etc. For example, I especially remember, even after these many decades, the particular drawing in the book that illustrated the proper arrangement of the Precious Gifts on the diskos.

Fr. Gregory’s approach was to stress that we were, indeed, Catholics, just as Catholic as our buddies across the tracks at the Roman Catholic St. Cyril’s Church, but that we practiced our Catholicism different thn they did, more like our relatives in the “old country” did. He was always quick to point out “differences” to us, as well as the “whys” behind those differences. Case in point: on Palm Sunday, our Roman Catholic friends received palms: we Byzantine Catholics, instead, received pussywillows because palms just didn’t grow in the “old country” where our ancestors were from so, since they substituted pussywillows, so did we.

You must remember in all this that we were mere kids. Dogmatic or theological discussions re: the Immaculate Conception, purgatory, etc. would have gone right over our heads at that time. Our entire catechism program stressed two very basic concepts:
  1. We were Catholics, and we believed what all Catholics believe.
  2. We were different from the Roman Catholics because we were Byzantines, and that was something we should be proud of.
And at that grade-school level, that was sufficient for us!

BTW - I served at the altar for the previously-mentioned +Bp. Elko (IIRC, I believe I held the dikeron and/or trikeron)… there were no “episcopol gloves” in sight and he certainly wore an Eastern crown (no mitre!) when visiting our parish.
Click to expand...
Every photo of Bishop Elko dressed in vestments or “choir” dress (with matiya) I ever saw, gloves were part of the attire. I’ll have upload those for exhibit A.

U-C
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Wrong. I did.

What point are you getting at with the link?

Will we ever get back to the question of what revisions should be made or will we go the day recounting Balrimore Catechism stories?
Click to expand...
The link is for a Ruthenian church in Baltimore:eek:
 
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