Eastern Catholics, are we really Catholic?

[yeshua]

ByzCath,

I honestly believe this is a difficult question to answer. When someones states “I am an Eastern Catholic and this is what I believe” who am I to tell them no? Quite frankly, the fact is we don’t have a singular answer on what it means to be an “Eastern or Oriental Catholic.” Even simply saying “being faithful to the Magisterium and doctrines of the Church” can be sketchy considering how open to interpretation that statement truly is. If Melkite says to Ruthenian “we do not believe in the IC because my Bishop said so” and Ruthenian says to Melkite “you have to believe in IC because my Bishop says so” which member of the Magisterium is right?

Bearing this in mind, I stray heavily away from saying that X person is not a real Eastern or Oriental because of my premises of what constitutes one. However, I do believe it is far to say X person is not a representative of all Eastern and Orientals considering this large diversity in opinion.

Yes, we all find ourselves disagreeing with one vantage point or another, but that does not refute our given identities as an Eastern or Oriental. What is needed then, IMO, is an honest treatment of each person and their views and see what their context is, leaving this unfair judgment of who is Catholic or not behind. The fact is our communities are in communion with Rome, and I must give Rome the benefit of the doubt to know about these theological issues but still keep us in communion; our Catholicity is not in question, how we define it is.

Case in point, when people ask what is my religion I respond that I am a Maronite. Many of my fellow Catholics thinks that is putting my Oriental before my Catholic, and not being fair to my Catholicity. What they are ignorant of is that in my heritage, the title Maronite is meant to be all encompassing; stating Catholic after Maronite is almost redundant, because for us they are one in the same. So, our Catholicity doesn’t need to be reaffirmed, but how we define it certainly does as with our other Eastern and Oriental brothers.

ByzCath, the choice you made to be in a Latin Order does not, in my mind and apparently the Vatican’s, change your status as a Ruthenian so long as you believe yourself as one. We can still discuss the differences on what Eastern and Orientals believe, are supposed to believe, and our unique status in Christianity despite our differences. No one is under anathema here.

Peace and God Bless!

 

[ERose]

This has been something that has been on my mind for a long time and has come to a head with my entrance into the Carmelites.

I post now because of this thread Eastern Church teaching.

In it Ungcsertez strongly implies that a Ruthenian Catholic Priest who holds to the same view that I do, that we are Catholics first and bound to all the Teachings of the Catholic Church, is not truly eastern.

I have run into this because of my vocational discernment. Because I have chosen to enter a Latin Religious Order rather than follow a vocation within the eastern Church.

Other eastern Catholics seem to think I am a “sell out” and ignore the facts of my vocation and my discernment that have called me to where I am. They even ignore the fact that all of this has been done in concert with my Spiritual Father.

I think this is a back lash for the latinizations and the superior attitude of some Latin Catholics but these eastern Catholics do not realize that this just fuels those.

I am sorry but I just had to get this off my mind.

I praise God for you my friend for being willing to follow your calling. I agree with you. I think that it is sad that we, Catholics, do not see each other as brothers and sisters in the same Church with the same mission. To be honest I do not personally know anyone that is Eastern Catholic. I live here in the south of USA and all that is around here is Protestants and some Catholics of the Roman Rite.

But in my opinion it is a treasure to the Universal Church that we have such diversity in culture and worship and experience.

I go to a Roman Catholic Church but I view myself as just Catholic. People ask me what religion I am I tell them Catholic. Maybe the reason for that is were I live your are Catholic or Protestant. But I think that is what we should see ourselves as across the board anyway.

The only differences we should have is in worship and tradition. Dogma should be the same even though we may look at it in a different way based upon our cultural differences. But truth is truth. No matter how we preceive it at the end truth is truth.

 

[Peter_J]

As an Eastern Catholic I find the Roman Catholics are Catholics with a “funny” liturgy.

GregoryPalamas, I am shocked! freesmileys.org/smileys/shocked034.gif

Next you’ll be saying “Roman Catholics, are they really Catholic?” freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/seehearspeak.gif

 

[GregoryPalamas]

GregoryPalamas, I am shocked! freesmileys.org/smileys/shocked034.gif

Next you’ll be saying “Roman Catholics, are they really Catholic?” freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/seehearspeak.gif

Your idea takes my breath away. Let’s start such a thread.

CDL

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Ok, what is that different manner? If the dogma rests upon Thomistic and Augustinian theology regarding original sin and insists that Mary was conceived sinlessly and the East holds that original sin is not passed down physically but is a mystery and that Mary’s sinlessness is necessary but also a mystery how are these views the same?

Neither are they mutually exclusive, or both the same. Both have profound truths expressed different ways: the beauty of being Catholic.

 

[Jakub]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregoryPalamas forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
As an Eastern Catholic I find the Roman Catholics are Catholics with a “funny” liturgy.

I had to come out of the shadow lands and say great comment CDL…

I think it should be “liturgies”…I have 3 parishes within 15 miles of me and all are different and…

james

 

[Madaglan]

Being two distinct Persons, the Orthodox might say something like the procession is from the Person of the Father, but not from the Person of the Son if that is the correct phraseology to use , I don’t know about that.

Aside:

The Father alone is the single first principle in the Trinity. He alone is source of divinity for the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[sodak]

If the Eastern rites are in Communion with Rome, then, can I, as a Roman Catholic, attend an Eastern Liturgy to fulfill my Sunday obligation? Or do I need permission?

I would love to do that.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

If the Eastern rites are in Communion with Rome, then, can I, as a Roman Catholic, attend an Eastern Liturgy to fulfill my Sunday obligation? Or do I need permission?

I would love to do that.

No permission needed. Come on by.

CDL

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This has been something that has been on my mind for a long time and has come to a head with my entrance into the Carmelites.

I post now because of this thread Eastern Church teaching.

In it Ungcsertez strongly implies that a Ruthenian Catholic Priest who holds to the same view that I do, that we are Catholics first and bound to all the Teachings of the Catholic Church, is not truly eastern.

I have run into this because of my vocational discernment. Because I have chosen to enter a Latin Religious Order rather than follow a vocation within the eastern Church.

Other eastern Catholics seem to think I am a “sell out” and ignore the facts of my vocation and my discernment that have called me to where I am. They even ignore the fact that all of this has been done in concert with my Spiritual Father.

I think this is a back lash for the latinizations and the superior attitude of some Latin Catholics but these eastern Catholics do not realize that this just fuels those.

I am sorry but I just had to get this off my mind.

**Put it this way: **​

**Even if the Church were not universal of its very nature, for the Church to be composed of a single rite only would be a very great impoverishment. How can the Church possibly be, & become, truly universal in every way, if its identity is the preserve of one part of it or of a group of these ? All that is in it is needed; not part only. Otherwise it is mutilated. **

**As for superior attitudes, from any quarter whatsoever; all they do is harm the Church, tear it apart, disable it, weaken it. If they did not, they would still be intolerable because such attitudes are not Christian. **

**I’m very sorry you’ve had the problems & difficulties you mention **

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Frankly,

I don’t understand why Eastern Catholics like the OP feels its necessary to defend the Catholicity of Eastern Catholicism if he doesn’t suspect that we aren’t Catholic. The title of this thread slightly annoys me.

CDL

 

[byzgirl]

Eastern Catholics are Catholics, but there does seem to be a difference in beliefs between the Roman and the Eastern Catholics. I am not sure how serious these differences are, but Roman Catholics believe, that for the most part, these differences can be reconciled by appeal to considerations and studies of differences which may arise from varying cultural, historical, and philosophical frameworks. However, Eastern Orthodox Christians generally seem to believe that the differences between East and Weat are more serious than the Latin Church is willing to admit.

I’m a cradle Catholic who was raised Latin Rite, and switched to Byzantine Rite as an adult (my brother is a Byzantine Rite priest). My understanding has always been that there are differences emphases on different doctrinal and theological understandings, but certainly not actual doctrinal differences (or there would certainly be a problem with unity). Whether or not some Eastern Christians feel that there are more ‘serious differences’ means little if there actually aren’t any.

I think that most of the ‘conflicts’ that certain Byzantine Catholics feel toward the Latin Rite, are due to cultural differences. Like the Orthodox, there’s too much ‘nationalistic’ feelings. The different ‘ethnic’ groups among Byzantine Rite Catholics can, I believe in older generation people, cause conflict that is really unnecessary. The Orthodox groups are prime examples of this.

I think Byzantine Catholics have a different angle they approach different theological ideas and doctrines, but not any that are outright differences or heretical in any way, shape, or form.

I LOVE the Byzantine Rite, and I also appreciate my upbringing in the Latin/Roman Rite. I understand myself (and all Byzantine Rite and other Eastern Rite Catholics) to be Catholic first.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Frankly,

I don’t understand why Eastern Catholics like the OP feels its necessary to defend the Catholicity of Eastern Catholicism if he doesn’t suspect that we aren’t Catholic. The title of this thread slightly annoys me.

CDL

I have a name. All this OP stuff slightly annoys me.

You can either use my username here, byzcath, or you can use my name Br. David.

I do not see any need to defend the Catholicity of Eastern Catholicism. I see the need to call out those who are hiding behind the title Eastern Catholic only to belittle those who they deem are not “Eastern” enough in their eyes. Those who are just as bad as all those big bad Latins who think the Latin Rite is superior.

 

[byzgirl]

Great comment, there, Br. David! There IS no reason why any one of us should be defending the ‘Catholicity of Eastern Catholicism’!!! It’s certainly, as you say, a sign of ‘a sense of superiority’ (where none actually exists) in certain individual(s) which harbor such feelings and opinions (that have no basis). The title of this thread caught my attention for the same reason…it annoys me to find Catholics, united under the Papacy, second-guessing the Church and its inclusion of the Eastern Rites. If anyone is heretical, the Church makes that call.

I think we have enough ‘convincing’ Protestants that we are Christians, let alone convincing other Catholics we are Catholic!

Why create trouble where none exists?

Byzgirl

I have a name. All this OP stuff slightly annoys me.

You can either use my username here, byzcath, or you can use my name Br. David.

I do not see any need to defend the Catholicity of Eastern Catholicism. I see the need to call out those who are hiding behind the title Eastern Catholic only to belittle those who they deem are not “Eastern” enough in their eyes. Those who are just as bad as all those big bad Latins who think the Latin Rite is superior.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I have a name. All this OP stuff slightly annoys me.

You can either use my username here, byzcath, or you can use my name Br. David.

I do not see any need to defend the Catholicity of Eastern Catholicism. I see the need to call out those who are hiding behind the title Eastern Catholic only to belittle those who they deem are not “Eastern” enough in their eyes. Those who are just as bad as all those big bad Latins who think the Latin Rite is superior.

I didn’t know that I had walked into a pissing contest.

Protestants follow their conscience.

I’m going to start that new thread.

CDL

 

[natsclem]

ByzCath,
…
Case in point, when people ask what is my religion I respond that I am a Maronite. Many of my fellow Catholics thinks that is putting my Oriental before my Catholic, and not being fair to my Catholicity. What they are ignorant of is that in my heritage, the title Maronite is meant to be all encompassing; stating Catholic after Maronite is almost redundant, because for us they are one in the same. So, our Catholicity doesn’t need to be reaffirmed, but how we define it certainly does as with our other Eastern and Oriental brothers.
…

How come that the term Maronite is synonymous with the term Catholic? What’s your linguistic authority?

The Maronites are members of one of the Syriac Eastern Catholic Churches with a heritage reaching back to Maron in the early 5th century.

Maronite as a term is specific; Catholic is generic.

 

[natsclem]

Can we get back on track with this thread or maybe it has run its course.

This thread is not about the filoque nor is it out the Eastern Orthodox.

It is about Eastern Catholics and why some Eastern Catholics seem to see themselves as something other than Catholic.

If the poster of “Eastern Catholics, are we really Catholic?” intends to get answer in the form of yes or no, we, who are not Easterns, are necessarily excluded to post comments because we don’t know if Eastern Catholics really believe the Catholic doctrines that we normally believe without distinguishing them into dogmatic teachings or merely theological opinions.

In my humble opinion, proclaiming to the world that I am a Roman Catholic because I love the Pope does not make me Roman Catholic in the fullness of its meaning unless the faith that I have conforms to the teachings of the Catholic Church and to the practices of the Latin Rite.

The set of beliefs that the Eastern Catholics understand and hold is the qualifier whether they are really Catholics or not. What makes them Eastern is the manner of expressing that same faith.

We need to know if what distinguishes the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches still holds in you. In other words, for the sake of objective assessment, we need to discuss the specifics–the Filioque, Immaculate Conception, Infallibility, etc.

 

[natsclem]

First, I do not see the Thomistic and Augustinian views of original sin as being dogmatic in themselves. So this is how we view the sinlessness of Mary as being different. This is why the West needed the dogma released as it was, we did not need it yet we still believe that Mary was born sinless and lived in a sinless life.

You believe Mary was born sinless…

so, do you mean…others, including you and me, are born with sin?

 

[natsclem]

I do not see any need to defend the Catholicity of Eastern Catholicism. I see the need to call out those who are hiding behind the title Eastern Catholic only to belittle those who they deem are not “Eastern” enough in their eyes. Those who are just as bad as all those big bad Latins who think the Latin Rite is superior.

Dear Br. David,

I don’t see any big deal in being Latin or Eastern. The big deal is…do we possess the fullness of Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

I belong to the Latin Rite but the irony is I don’t know how to write, speak, and understand enough Latin to understand a single Catholic doctrine written in Latin. What makes me Catholic is that I believe all that the Catholic Church teaches me (in English Language) to believe to be saved.

In reality, I am not a Latin Catholic but a Filipino Catholic who understands the Catholic Faith in English and Filipino Languages.

 

[natsclem]

Dear Br. David,

You believe Mary was born sinless…

so, do you mean…others, including you and me, are born with sin?

I hope you’re not referring to actual sin. We could not have sinned on the day we are born.

Or, do you mean that like Mary we are all born sinless? In other words, we are all immaculately conceived…!

We should be clear on this…to assess whether your faith is really Catholic.

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church about original sin:

By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings. Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”. As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”). Catechism of the Catholic Church, 416-418

In other words, Original Sin as passed on was not committed but contracted by Adam’s descendants. As passed on it is not like actual sin which is committed but a deprivation of original holiness/justice as consequence of Adam’s disobedient/sinful act.

In Decree on Original Sin, the Council of Trent says that:

If anyone asserts that the transgression of Adam injured him alone and not his posterity,[7] and that the holiness and justice which he received from God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has transfused only death and the pains of the body into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul, let him be anathema, since he contradicts the Apostle who says: By one man sin entered into the world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Being Catholic means we should have the same understanding of this doctrine with the Catholic Church. If not, we are not Catholic.