Eastern Catholics, are we really Catholic?

[GregoryPalamas]

Peter,

As a Byzantine Catholic I fully appreciate this last post of yours.

CDL

 

[PetersKeys]

Accept and believe “Filioque” in the way the Church of Rome understands it not the way the Eastern Churches understand it. The Filioque procession of the Holy Spirit (HS) is differently understood. In the East, the word for procession (proceed) used in the Constantinopolitan Creed was the Greek word ekporeutai (para tou Patros ekporeutai)which connotes procession of the HS from a single source, principal, or cause–in this case, the Father. In the West, the word used was the Latin procedit (qui a Patre procedit)which does not imply what the Greek word implies. The perfect equivalent of procedit is the Greek word proienai, which was used by St. Epiphanius of Salamis (374 AD) & in the Council of Seleucia (in the Antiochian patriarchate, 410 AD). The West always believe that both the Son and the HS derive their eternal existence from the same, one cause, the Father. The word procedit does not have that specific meaning but a more generic one allowing the expression of “who proceeds from the Father and the Son” possible without making the Son an another principal source of the HS’s eternal existence.

Wouldn’t the holy spirit HAVE to proceed from also the son since the Son has the same substance of the Father. If the holy spirit didn’t also proceed from the Son then its saying the Son dosen’t have the same qualitys of the Father(which would not make Christ equal with his Father).

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But secondly, I truly regret that you have decided to escalate the situation with the offensive title “Eastern Catholics, are we really Catholic?” Clearly, there’s no parity between questioning someone’s “easternness” (or “westernness” as the case may be) and questioning whether someone is “really Catholic”. I only hope that there’s not going to be any further escalation after this.

No offense intended, especially if one reads my post.

A subject title is not a post, it is a title that is used to get someone’s attention to get them to enter the thread and read the posts and reply on them, not just on the title.

Some Eastern Catholics seem to feel that Catholic Dogma does not apply to them, maybe because it is not expressed in Eastern Theological terms. A few here have shown that, as well as some on other forums and some that I know personally.

It is a fact and I believe it is something that we need to talk about.

Just because someone may take offense at something is no reason not to discuss it or bring it up. If that was the case then we couldn’t really talk about anything.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Wouldn’t the holy spirit HAVE to proceed from also the son since the Son has the same substance of the Father. If the holy spirit didn’t also proceed from the Son then its saying the Son dosen’t have the same qualitys of the Father(which would not make Christ equal with his Father).

This is not a thread on the filioque, if we do not wish to discuss the original topic then maybe it is time for the thread to be closed, not closed because some do not like the topic but because there is no more to discuss on it.

 

[Mickey]

This has been something that has been on my mind for a long time and has come to a head with my entrance into the Carmelites.

I post now because of this thread Eastern Church teaching.

In it Ungcsertez strongly implies that a Ruthenian Catholic Priest who holds to the same view that I do, that we are Catholics first and bound to all the Teachings of the Catholic Church, is not truly eastern.

I have run into this because of my vocational discernment. Because I have chosen to enter a Latin Religious Order rather than follow a vocation within the eastern Church.

Other eastern Catholics seem to think I am a “sell out” and ignore the facts of my vocation and my discernment that have called me to where I am. They even ignore the fact that all of this has been done in concert with my Spiritual Father.

I think this is a back lash for the latinizations and the superior attitude of some Latin Catholics but these eastern Catholics do not realize that this just fuels those.

I am sorry but I just had to get this off my mind.

I think there is nothing wrong with where you are. Eastern Catholic Churches are under Rome. You are not a sell out.
God bless.

 

[Peter_J]

A subject title is not a post, it is a title that is used to get someone’s attention to get them to enter the thread and read the posts and reply on them, not just on the title.

That’s certainly true, and in fact I don’t know anyone who would deny it. But I think my point is still valid, namely that this particular thread’s title is offensive. (In much the same way, I would consider it offensive if a Latin Catholic started a thread titled “Latin Catholics, are we really Catholic?” – even if he/she later said that no offense was intended.)

-Peter.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Wouldn’t the holy spirit HAVE to proceed from also the son since the Son has the same substance of the Father. If the holy spirit didn’t also proceed from the Son then its saying the Son dosen’t have the same qualitys of the Father(which would not make Christ equal with his Father).

An understanding of Greek will help you here. Also a quick reading of John 15 will help you see that Jesus said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. One must also note that the creeds, written by councils, indicate the same thing as Jesus did in John 15 that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I think there is nothing wrong with where you are. Eastern Catholic Churches are under Rome. You are not a sell out.
God bless.

We are not “under” Rome. Never have been, never will be. Please, use language with a bit more precision.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

That’s certainly true, and in fact I don’t know anyone who would deny it. But I think my point is still valid, namely that this particular thread’s title is offensive. (In much the same way, I would consider it offensive if a Latin Catholic started a thread titled “Latin Catholics, are we really Catholic?” – even if he/she later said that no offense was intended.)

-Peter.

I started such a thread in the Traditional forum precisely to show that this thread’s title is indeed offensive.

CDL

 

[Mickey]

We are not “under” Rome. Never have been, never will be. Please, use language with a bit more precision.

CDL

Whatever do you mean? The Pope of Rome is the highest authority of the Eastern Catholic Churches. You must accept all the dogmas and doctrines of the Latin Catholic Church. Please explain?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Whatever do you mean? The Pope of Rome is the highest authority of the Eastern Catholic Churches. You must accept all the dogmas and doctrines of the Latin Catholic Church. Please explain?

The pope is the patriarch of the West. We are in communion with him because we love him. We did not come in under the influence of the ultramontanist movement. He is our spiritual father but not our boss.

CDL

 

[bobzills]

Its confusing because it looks like some of the teachings between East and West Catholics are different.

 

[Mickey]

The pope is the patriarch of the West. We are in communion with him because we love him. We did not come in under the influence of the ultramontanist movement. He is our spiritual father but not our boss.

Are you telling me that you are permitted to disobey specific doctrines? Can you ignore directives and/or promulgations that come from Rome? I am confused.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Are you telling me that you are permitted to disobey specific doctrines? Can you ignore directives and/or promulgations that come from Rome? I am confused.

We obey the pope because we love God and the Church. We don’t obey him out of fear of disobeying a law. I wish all Catholics had the same loyalty.

CDL

 

[ERose]

An understanding of Greek will help you here. Also a quick reading of John 15 will help you see that Jesus said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. One must also note that the creeds, written by councils, indicate the same thing as Jesus did in John 15 that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

CDL

I think this topic is outside the scope of this thread. If you start another thread on this subject I would be more than happy to get involved with this debate. Again.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I think this topic is outside the scope of this thread. If you start another thread on this subject I would be more than happy to get involved with this debate. Again.

I thought it should have been closed a couple of days ago. For that matter I won’t debate this topic. It’s like debating with a sibling who loves mom or dad more. It’s silly.

CDL

 

[Mickey]

We obey the pope because we love God and the Church. We don’t obey him out of fear of disobeying a law. I wish all Catholics had the same loyalty.

I did not say that you obeyed the Pope out of any type of legalistic fear. You obey out of love, respect, and because you agree with all the Church of Rome teaches. Hence, David is perfectly fine as an Eastern Catholic in a Latin order.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I did not say that you obeyed the Pope out of any type of legalistic fear. You obey out of love, respect, and because you agree with all the Church of Rome teaches. Hence, David is perfectly fine as an Eastern Catholic in a Latin order.

Since I don’t know how an anonymous forum can determine that one way or another it doesn’t really matter, does it. I don’t understand why this thread exists nor why it hasn’t been closed.

CDL

 

[Mickey]

Since I don’t know how an anonymous forum can determine that one way or another it doesn’t really matter, does it. I don’t understand why this thread exists nor why it hasn’t been closed.

Can determine what? Why do you become so angered?

 

[dessert]

I started such a thread in the Traditional forum precisely to show that this thread’s title is indeed offensive.

CDL

Hi CDL, I have greatly admired your knowledge, valued your opinion and received great advice from you. Please stop and take a breath. It seems you are in shock and maybe a little sad to hear what you have heard from brother David. He says brother because he still wants to feel like we are all family, and we are. Maybe he was just expressing his own questions out loud and is searching an avenue for himself. If his own are rejecting him then he came here to let out a little hoping not to be cast off by us. He will grow and be different as he clears his own soul to prepare for God’s grace filling of the spirit, for his vocation. It must have been hard for him to make this decision. I was surprised myself to hear.
Many people (family) have come on this forum asking questions such as Am I really married if My spouse is not catholic and am I going to hell if I took birth control so let’s just let a question go and bear some fruit which I think can happen if we give it some time and nurturing. I understand how you feel but he is going through a change right now and in a month or 4 he will look back and we want him to know he received the love and understanding that only you can give. By the way that was a beautiful statement you made about loving the pope, thank you I’ve never heard that before from anyone. Blessings