Eastern Catholics how/why is Union with Rome is worth being divided from all the other Orthodox Patriarchs?

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They are only heretics if they were catholic and then left, otherwise they are just misguided.
But even then only God can judge how much they knew with regard to their faith and what’s in their heart, that’s why I don’t like calling people who leave the Church (thanks for the distinction) “heretics”. My job is only to help bring them back to the church with as much love and knowledge as I can muster.
 
I get what your saying, but I disagree slightly. If a catholic willfully leaves the faith for protestantiam, they have embraced heresy and are therefore a heretic.
 
Btw, brother Coptsoldier, I wanted to affirm that your earlier point (Catholics can request a dispensation from the impediment of disparity of cult) is a definite plus (imo) for the Catholic side. Despite all the accusations of legalism,. the Catholic Church is very much in touch with the reality of people’s lives. Of course, the Catholic partner must promise to raise the children in the Catholic Faith. And who knows, as another poster had indicated, the marriage could become a blessing to the other party if he/she converts (especially if the other party is not Christian to begin with).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Nine-Two,

In my past debates (when I was still in the COC), I was the one actually pointing this out to the certain EO I was debating. Their response was that such a fact does not mean that being in communion with an orthodox/Orthodox patriarch is important or necessary. Such a fact is only used for the purpose of identifying who is Orthodox. Brother Aramis’ explanation was the first time I’ve ever heard that EO actually regard communion with their head bishop itself being important (though I realize he is not himself in the EO communion, but is a Catholic).

I hope you can understand part of the reason why I eventually felt led to the Absolutist-High-Low Petrine distinctions.

Blessings
Are you sure you’ve been paying attention?

This is exactly the reason the Kievan Patriarchate isn’t considered Orthodox - because of who their bishops are not in Communion with.

To be Orthodox you must be in Communion with a Bishop who is in communion with a Bishop who is listed in the Dyptychs of the other Orthodox Churches.
 
I get what your saying, but I disagree slightly. If a catholic willfully leaves the faith for protestantiam, they have embraced heresy and are therefore a heretic.
Yes, technically, they would be, but should we go around calling them “heretics”, i.e., in Corinthians we are told that love is the greatest virtue, i.e., if you have faith but not love. . . . etc., so although faith is very important, love is greater. I think we need to be reminded of that while we’re debating each other on these forums.

God bless!
 
Who says the two are mutually exclusive in the first place? I think it’s a greater love to bring a person true Christianity than to let them languish in error to whatever degree they have embraced it or been brought up with it unknowingly than it would be to let them think that it’s all six of one, half a dozen of the other, which seems to be the alternative offered by those who would rather not use a “bad” (but perfectly acceptable as a descriptor) word like ‘heretic’. Perhaps this is one of those differences between the East and the West again. I don’t know, but I do know that we still use that word when it fits: It’s not thrown around causally by any means, but that doesn’t mean it has no place in the modern world just because it might not be ‘nice’ to other people. There are still heresies in the world, and the proper word for someone who has embraced or introduced them is ‘heretic’. It doesn’t mean they’re bad people as people; it just means that they teach and/or follow something that is unacceptable. (And I do not agree with the other poster that said only those who were previously Christian or whatever can be heretics; there are instances of the fathers using the word “heresy” to describe beliefs that came to life outside of Christianity, such as John Damascene’s description of Islam as a heresy, or St. Basil’s description of Manichism, if my memory serves. The various gnostics, of which the Manicheans are one type, were not all Christian, yet gnosticism is most certainly a heresy.)
 
Who says the two are mutually exclusive in the first place? I think it’s a greater love to bring a person true Christianity than to let them languish in error to whatever degree they have embraced it or been brought up with it unknowingly than it would be to let them think that it’s all six of one, half a dozen of the other, which seems to be the alternative offered by those who would rather not use a “bad” (but perfectly acceptable as a descriptor) word like ‘heretic’. Perhaps this is one of those differences between the East and the West again. I don’t know, but I do know that we still use that word when it fits: It’s not thrown around causally by any means, but that doesn’t mean it has no place in the modern world just because it might not be ‘nice’ to other people. There are still heresies in the world, and the proper word for someone who has embraced or introduced them is ‘heretic’. It doesn’t mean they’re bad people as people; it just means that they teach and/or follow something that is unacceptable. (And I do not agree with the other poster that said only those who were previously Christian or whatever can be heretics; there are instances of the fathers using the word “heresy” to describe beliefs that came to life outside of Christianity, such as John Damascene’s description of Islam as a heresy, or St. Basil’s description of Manichism, if my memory serves. The various gnostics, of which the Manicheans are one type, were not all Christian, yet gnosticism is most certainly a heresy.)
Exactly.
 
I’m sorry :o things are so clear in my head, I forget others don’t live there too. I was referencing the whole biblical Jewish issue with defilement from foreign idols and nations (influences) all of which was completely unnecessary after David and the call to convert the nations, which was the entire point of being chosen. Jesus points out that our job is to be the illumination of the world, not living in fear of being defiled by it. It just seems like a parallel this excommunicating and rebaptising thing. (Unless I misunderstand.)

Take my opinion as you will. I have a non-practicing Protestant husband, who was raised in an anti-catholic home. It is not ideal, but I have no doubt at all that he is supposed to be my husband, because discussing religion with him brought me back to the Church. I have faith in the recommendations of St Paul and St Monica 🙂
🙂 I know Catholic families who all married non Catholics going back several generations. And all the non Catholics ultimately became not only Catholic, but all save one, became great Catholics. And to a key point, none of the non Catholics were made a propject by their Catholic spouse. When questions came up, the Catholic was able to answer their spouses questions. And ultimately the non Catholic couldn’t resist. Sometimes it took decades but it still happened. Keep up the faith. 👍
 
At least in the Orthodox way of looking at it, there is a greater difference between the Orthodox and the non-Orthodox than there is between the Roman Catholic and the Protestant (both being non-Orthodox themselves, as well as sharing certain presuppositions that make them alike in their approach to religion, as is natural since the Protestants came out of the Catholic Church, and not some other church). Perhaps that better explains what might seem to Catholics to be an unreasonable or inflexible stance on the part of the COC. 🤷
 
They are only heretics if they were catholic and then left, otherwise they are just misguided.
Actually it has to do with whether one is baptised or not…

2089 "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;****
 
Yes, technically, they would be, but should we go around calling them “heretics”, i.e., in Corinthians we are told that love is the greatest virtue, i.e., if you have faith but not love. . . . etc., so although faith is very important, love is greater. I think we need to be reminded of that while we’re debating each other on these forums.
God bless!
Agreed, in all things charity

Re: the term heretic, depending on one’s bible translation, consider that there are different words used in the following passage, but the Greek word behind those translations is the same word.

Tit 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αρετικὸ****ν ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

Open the link for the definition of that word in Greek. It’s heretic. A man who is a heretic. Okay, one asks… define heretic (see definition of heresy 2089 ). IOW, one who has been baptised, and embraces heresy, is condemned by God, because of heresy, if they die in heresy.

We can’t deny, we live in a society today where people don’t tell others truth because it might hurt their feelings, or it might look like we’re judging them, or it might be considered unloving towards them. When in fact I would suggest, by taking the following position we are actually breaking 2 huge commandments.

We’ve all heard the following sentiment or something like it…right?

“I wouldn’t do that myself but I won’t/can’t stop another from doing what they feel is right for them.”

that attitude/statement breaks both of the following commandments that Jesus said sum up the whole law and the prophets. Matthew 22:37-39 because when one knows the truth and won’t stand up for it, or one does nothing towards their neighbor’s good when they need correction, such a person obeys neither of those commandment and actually breaks them both. Let’s not forget there are sins of co-mission as well as omission.

So to your point, Lord help all of us deliver truth strongly but charitably. :cool:
 
At least in the Orthodox way of looking at it, there is a greater difference between the Orthodox and the non-Orthodox than there is between the Roman Catholic and the Protestant (both being non-Orthodox themselves, as well as sharing certain presuppositions that make them alike in their approach to religion, as is natural since the Protestants came out of the Catholic Church, and not some other church). Perhaps that better explains what might seem to Catholics to be an unreasonable or inflexible stance on the part of the COC. 🤷
I’m hearing Bette Midler sing From a Distance in my head… 😃

I would say that there are more similarities between Buddhists and Catholics than Catholics and Protestants, but that may only be because I have to constantly defend myself from certain Protestant members of my family.

Could, from the Orthodox perspective, we not say that the RCC, having schismed from the Orthodox Church, share certain presuppositions as well that would make them alike? (My understanding of Church history is not awesome, so feel free to tell me that I can’t say that.)
 
🙂 I know Catholic families who all married non Catholics going back several generations. And all the non Catholics ultimately became not only Catholic, but all save one, became great Catholics. And to a key point, none of the non Catholics were made a propject by their Catholic spouse. When questions came up, the Catholic was able to answer their spouses questions. And ultimately the non Catholic couldn’t resist. Sometimes it took decades but it still happened. Keep up the faith. 👍
That is the hope 🙂 It is kind of a weird position though, since everyone else in my family married Catholics… 😃
 
You mean Orthodoxy and Catholicism? Well, yes, they are also alike, albeit in more basic aspects (being liturgical instead ‘free form’ or whatever the alternative is, having ecclesiastical structure, etc). When I wrote that Catholics and Protestants are closer I mean that in matters of soteriology, Triadology (filioque), and other similar doctrinal matters, they follow similar propositions to similar ends, as the Protestants inherited these ideas often from the Roman Church from which they schismed.
 
You mean Orthodoxy and Catholicism? Well, yes, they are also alike, albeit in more basic aspects (being liturgical instead ‘free form’ or whatever the alternative is, having ecclesiastical structure, etc). When I wrote that Catholics and Protestants are closer I mean that in matters of soteriology, Triadology (filioque), and other similar doctrinal matters, they follow similar propositions to similar ends, as the Protestants inherited these ideas often from the Roman Church from which they schismed.
I often hear this claim from both EO and OO, but as far as I’m concerned, as a former Protestant now Catholic, the similarities the Orthodox refer to are superficial at best. Yes, Protestants use similar terminology when it comes to some of these doctrinal issues, but their understanding of those terms is completely foreign from the Catholic understanding. Catholics and Protestants tend to speak past each other. That being said, if you are referring to more traditional Lutherans or Anglicans, I would agree that there is a lot of common ground and similar propositions - but if you are looking at the bulk of the world’s “Protestants” today we are talking about Evangelicals and Pentecostals - and even finding a common theological language is nearly impossible. When a Pentecostal speaks of “justification” they mean something very different than when a Catholic does. No Evangelical or Pentecostal, unless a student of Church history, would have any idea what the “Filioque” even is, as creeds outside of Scripture are foreign to them.

Surely the common belief in the necessity of sacraments, the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, the institution of a Christian priesthood, the authority of bishops as successors of the apostles, the deification of man, the intercession of saints, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and a host of other issues, which Catholics and Orthodox agree on, at least in some basic sense, yet which Evangelicals and Pentecostals completely and fundamentally reject, would lead anyone to conclude that Catholics and Orthodox share more in common at the end of the day…
 
I often hear this claim from both EO and OO, but as far as I’m concerned, as a former Protestant now Catholic, the similarities the Orthodox refer to are superficial at best. Yes, Protestants use similar terminology when it comes to some of these doctrinal issues, but their understanding of those terms is completely foreign from the Catholic understanding. Catholics and Protestants tend to speak past each other. That being said, if you are referring to more traditional Lutherans or Anglicans, I would agree that there is a lot of common ground and similar propositions - but if you are looking at the bulk of the world’s “Protestants” today we are talking about Evangelicals and Pentecostals - and even finding a common theological language is nearly impossible. When a Pentecostal speaks of “justification” they mean something very different than when a Catholic does. No Evangelical or Pentecostal, unless a student of Church history, would have any idea what the “Filioque” even is, as creeds outside of Scripture are foreign to them.

Surely the common belief in the necessity of sacraments, the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, the institution of a Christian priesthood, the authority of bishops as successors of the apostles, the deification of man, the intercession of saints, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and a host of other issues, which Catholics and Orthodox agree on, at least in some basic sense, yet which Evangelicals and Pentecostals completely and fundamentally reject, would lead anyone to conclude that Catholics and Orthodox share more in common at the end of the day…
The Protestants that I know preach, and I think this is standard fare for most Protestants given the influence of televangelism, that God abandoned Christ on the cross. That Jesus was cursed and the Trinity was in effect broken, until the resurrection. I have way more in common with the Orthodox, I think than with any theology that effectively denies the Godhood of Christ, the oneness of the Trinity or the mercy of the cross. Modern evangelical Protestantism has many terms in common with Catholicism, but far more theology in common with Gnosticism…
 
At least in the Orthodox way of looking at it, there is a greater difference between the Orthodox and the non-Orthodox than there is between the Roman Catholic and the Protestant (both being non-Orthodox themselves, as well as sharing certain presuppositions that make them alike in their approach to religion, as is natural since the Protestants came out of the Catholic Church, and not some other church). Perhaps that better explains what might seem to Catholics to be an unreasonable or inflexible stance on the part of the COC. 🤷
That is an unjustified overgeneralization of Orthodoxy. There are very, very many Orthodox who rightly understand that the CC is closer to them than any of the Protestant bodies (notwithstanding the liturgical/magisterial Protestants, though there are certainly gradations even in that group, some more Catholic than others).

Blessings
 
When I wrote that Catholics and Protestants are closer I mean that in matters of soteriology, Triadology (filioque), and other similar doctrinal matters, they follow similar propositions to similar ends, as the Protestants inherited these ideas often from the Roman Church from which they schismed.
As far as soteriology, soteriology is what split the Protestants from the Catholics. The EO Council of Jerusalem even utilized the arguments of the Latin Church against the Protestants who came to their land, so there is no justification in that claim.

Filioque has historically never been a theological problem between OO’s and Catholics – unless you are here speaking for the EO, or OO who have been unduly influenced by EO.

To what other doctrinal matters are you referring? The Sacraments? That can’t be it. Invocation of the Saints? That can’t be it. Veneration of images? That can’t be it. Hierarchical ecclesiology? That can’t be it.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
That is an unjustified overgeneralization of Orthodoxy. There are very, very many Orthodox who rightly understand that the CC is closer to them than any of the Protestant bodies (notwithstanding the liturgical/magisterial Protestants, though there are certainly gradations even in that group, some more Catholic than others).

Blessings
How on earth would you know? You are an apostate from Orthodoxy, and hence your ability to speak on it is to be taken no more seriously than my own ability to speak regarding Roman Catholicism as an apostate from that church – something which you have frequently taken me to task for here when you felt I was speaking out of turn. Well, physician, heal thyself, and leave alone.

Edit: Do not bother replying to any more of my posts, Mardukm. I will not see any of your replies, as you are on my ignore list now.
 
How on earth would you know? You are an apostate from Orthodoxy, and hence your ability to speak on it is to be taken no more seriously than my own ability to speak regarding Roman Catholicism as an apostate from that church – something which you have frequently taken me to task for here when you felt I was speaking out of turn. Well, physician, heal thyself, and leave alone.
In what world does one exist wherein one cannot speak of one’s experience of Orthodox Christians unless one is in the Orthodox Church? Any person who speaks to any Orthodox can get a gauge of what Orthodoxy is. You alone are not the sole determinant of what Orthodoxy is, brother.

And btw, I have a lifetime of experience being Orthodox. You have - what - 4 or 5 years (less?)? So do not dare to even begin to lecture me on what the mind of the Orthodox Church is.

You have a habit of going off in huff whenever anyone challenges you on any little thing. That’s OK. Know that you are still my brother in Christ, and I will always be willing to dialogue with you, and correct you if necessary.

Blessings
 
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