Eastern Orthodox Christians: Do you reject Catholic miracles and supernatural claims as false or lies?

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Anna,

I’m struggling to make sense as to whether I believe them myself. Honestly, as you know, I’m struggling MIGHTILY to remain Catholic. I miss my Anglican parish a lot. And some of these supernatural experiences I have my own doubts about. Faith is a tough phenomenon to work through…

But in the case of the Orthodox, since they believe, by and large, that the Catholic Church is schismatic and thus devoid of sacramental charisms/graces, I would think they would have to reject these miracles as trumped-up or diabolical, wouldn’t they? I don’t say that to make them the “bad guys” but rather intellectually they’d have to reject them or else it would acknowledge that some type of godly grace and divine light shines down on Catholicism?

Gurney,
Very interesting question. I’m following the thread, though I am not EO or Catholic in Communion with the Roman Pontiff.

Peace,
Anna

P.S. These are two quotes from another one of your threads. I realize you are asking for EO responses, but hopefully you will forgive my adding this experience to the thread.

 

[Hesychios]

Personally I don’t think of the RC as devoid of Grace. In fact I don’t think of any particular Christian church as devoid of Grace.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No sacraments being valid definitely robs a communion of grace though, don’t you think, Michael? If the Eucharist, baptism, confession, holy orders, and other sacraments are empty pretending, then grace doesn’t flow…just small graces God gives us in other small ways. From the Orthodox view, the Catholics would have to have a serious deficit of graces thanks to having ‘invalid’ sacraments???

Personally I don’t think of the RC as devoid of Grace. In fact I don’t think of any particular Christian church as devoid of Grace.

 

[Hesychios]

No sacraments being valid definitely robs a communion of grace though, don’t you think, Michael? If the Eucharist, baptism, confession, holy orders, and other sacraments are empty pretending, then grace doesn’t flow…just small graces God gives us in other small ways. From the Orthodox view, the Catholics would have to have a serious deficit of graces thanks to having ‘invalid’ sacraments???

To me Grace is God.

To me it is not some created thing, so perhaps your understanding of Grace and sacramental validity and all that and mine are different.

If I thought Catholicism was devoid of Grace, I would fear for Catholics, but I don’t.

As to the original question, I am a natural sceptic, and sceptical about Orthodox phenomena as much as Catholic phenomena so I can’t help there. I have been this way all my life. For me I am not looking for signs, the sign of Jonah and the Gospels are sufficient.

I merely entered this discussion to pouint out that I don’t think Catholicism (and Anglicanism and Lutheranism) are devoid of Grace, beyond that I have no idea since I haven’t given it any serious thought.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna,

I’m struggling to make sense as to whether I believe them myself. Honestly, as you know, I’m struggling MIGHTILY to remain Catholic. I miss my Anglican parish a lot. And some of these supernatural experiences I have my own doubts about. Faith is a tough phenomenon to work through…

But in the case of the Orthodox, since they believe, by and large, that the Catholic Church is schismatic and thus devoid of sacramental charisms/graces, I would think they would have to reject these miracles as trumped-up or diabolical, wouldn’t they? I don’t say that to make them the “bad guys” but rather intellectually they’d have to reject them or else it would acknowledge that some type of godly grace and divine light shines down on Catholicism?

Gurney,

I guess I really didn’t realize the fallout of the “schism” which both sides claim the other caused.

As an Anglican, I hold the Catholic Church in high regard and would not rule out miracles among the Catholic faithful. Actually, I would not rule out miracles among the Protestant faithful, either.

Anna

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It appears you may be adding new things to the revelations from God revealed by Jesus?

Scripture and sacred Tradition reveals that “God prepared a body for me” (Hebrew 10:5), that Jesus is God incarnate. God also revealed that the Son of God is “born of a woman” (Gal. 4:4) “under the law”.

What you mistaken call a “new teaching” is never a new teaching but a revelation from God. The Church protects and defends this doctrine of Jesus that " Who, 3 though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. 7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance"… (Phil.2:6-7) with the doctrine of the “Immaculate conception”.

God cannot be born of a woman, if God did not place “emmity between (sin) satan and the woman” Gen. 3:15 so that from her virginity (her seed) will give a crushing blow to the serpents head, while bruising His heel.

The Church neither confirms nor denies that Mary died. The Church teaches that God is God of the living not the dead, because wether if we are asleep or awake, all are alive to Him (1Thes. 5:10)

You have no salvation without the revelation of Jesus being born of a virgin “woman” whom God made immaculate in her conception to become the ark of the Word of God made flesh. God protected and saved Mary in her conception. God did not make Mary “wonderwoman” her entire life.

The Immaculate conception reveals Jesus is God incarnate. This is not a new teaching, but a revelation from God.

The assumption of Mary protects the divine revealed doctrine of the “resurrection” and the hope of our salvation. If your adding things to these divine revelations then they are new to what God has revealed in time, thus becoming another gospel preached apart what God has revealed to his Catholic Church.

peace be with you

Then the new teaching of Immaculate conception of Mary leads to the new teaching of the Assumption of Mary because Mary cannot die because of her immaculate conception.
Is salvation dependant on these new teachings?
Salvation was enough without those new teachings!!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

One of the most profound miracles and apparations that continue to defy science and natural law is the apparation of the Virgen de Guadalupe, which converted 14 milliion aztec indians. I would like to read here any cause for objections of this revelation from heaven, although science continues to be stumped by the apparition and the witness (sign from heaven) of the “tilma”.

Also it would be interesting if the EO organize such committees to authenticate a miracle or saint, such as the Catholic Church, which applies a great scrutiny to miracles and saints inorder to authenticate them, from both natural law and scientific applications to disprove them. Thus we have “approved apparations** worthy of belief**”, never “anathematized”.

gurneyhalleck1;7769065]I’ve always been fascinated by Catholic supernatural phenomenon and the miracles the Catholic Church embraces, etc. Things like Fatima, the miracles of Padre Pio, Lourdes, the Dolorous Passion visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich, and so many other miracles by saints, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, exorcisms like the famous St. Louis Exorcism that inspired the famous Exorcist film, etc.

If the Catholic Church were illegitimate, devoid of grace, and no longer an instrument of active and powerful salvation used by God since the Great Schism, wouldn’t it necessitate that Orthodox reject these powerful and awesome miracles?

This thread is directed mostly to Orthodox, though Catholics can and should chime in, to find out if Orthodox believe in these miracles, reject them as figments of Catholic imagination, or just claim they’re false altogether?

The poll is really for Orthodox only (Orthodox not in communion with Rome)

 

[Mickey]

"If the saints have not always recognized demons who appeared to them in the form of saints and Christ Himself, how is it possible for us to think of ourselves that we will recognize them without mistake!”
St Ignaty Brianchaninov

 

[John_Carlton]

The Eastern Orthodox Church has been a nagging concept in my mind since converting to Catholicism from atheism. My options were, and in a sense, still are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. So I’ve read evenly material from both. Since both Churches coem from the same roots, for all intents and purposes, they tend to have a simmilar structure, from what I’ve read and been told. I have several books written by Orthodox Clergy. One, concerning the Virgin Mary, describes in detail the miracles prescribed to our Church, especially those scientifically verified, having no secular explanation.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Would “infallibility” or extreme scrutiny from authoritative offices from natural law, scientific laws including Psychological sciences suffice?

And when these all fail to disprove heavens work in the church followed by signs and wonders, could the Catholic Church exercise her God given authority to bind and loose these signs and wonders?

"If the saints have not always recognized demons who appeared to them in the form of saints and Christ Himself, how is it possible for us to think of ourselves that we will recognize them without mistake!”
St Ignaty Brianchaninov

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So Mickey, do you think many of these Catholic supernatural claims are really diabolical then? Just curious…

Blessings…

"If the saints have not always recognized demons who appeared to them in the form of saints and Christ Himself, how is it possible for us to think of ourselves that we will recognize them without mistake!”
St Ignaty Brianchaninov

 

[GaryTaylor]

What approved Miracles or Apparitions by the Catholic Church have in time produced the fruits of evil?

Very much on the contrary.

GT

 

[Harpazo]

I don’t believe in RC apparitions because it is not my faith anymore than I would expect a RC or Protestant, (or for the sake of argument) Buddhist to accept Orthodox miracles. I believe that’s all I have to say on the matter because I find the whole title of the thread to be somewhat inflammatory. I don’t understand why RCs care so much about what other religions or churches think about them. If you believe that your church is true, who cares what I think. Nothing I say would sway you anyway.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t believe in RC apparitions because it is not my faith anymore than I would expect a RC or Protestant, (or for the sake of argument) Buddhist to accept Orthodox miracles. I believe that’s all I have to say on the matter because I find the whole title of the thread to be somewhat inflammatory. I don’t understand why RCs care so much about what other religions or churches think about them. If you believe that your church is true, who cares what I think. Nothing I say would sway you anyway.

In Christ,
Andrew

Do you believe we live between two supernatural worlds. And the history of mankind is the war of good and evil? Prophets of the Bible and their prophecies are 2/3 complete and accurate you do understand this? So its a foregone conlusion God choose’s and sends souls to warn and instruct mankind. The fact they are disbelieved and ridiculed is also no different than Bible periods.

While theres documentation in the Catholic Church and is or isn’t in other churchs also doesn’t distract from the truth.

GT

 

[Harpazo]

Do you believe we live between two supernatural worlds. And the history of mankind is the war of good and evil? Prophets of the Bible and their prophecies are 2/3 complete and accurate you do understand this? So its a foregone conlusion God choose’s and sends souls to warn and instruct mankind. The fact they are disbelieved and ridiculed is also no different than Bible periods.

While theres documentation in the Catholic Church and is or isn’t in other churchs also doesn’t distract from the truth.

GT

Hindus have their documentation for their alleged miracles, as do Buddhists and Atheists (though they would call it science. ). Any supposed RC miracles is not something I think about. I do not expect you to accept Orthodox miracles, nor would your acceptance of them increase (or decrease) my faith that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

How on earth is it inflammatory? It’s a simple question about faith. And incidentally I think you’re putting words in Catholics’ mouths. Catholics believe that the Orthodox have valid orders, an abundance of grace and sacramental validity so most Catholics I know would believe the majority of Orthodox miracles. I do believe the reverse is not the case as the Orthodox do not recognize the sacraments and orders and sanctifying grace within Catholicism. What is inflammatory? It’s a simple opinion question. If you say “no, I don’t” then we say “ok.” It’s not that we “care so much” about what you think about us, it’s just theological and supernatural discourse that we have in here so where’s the harm? Going on your angle here, since Catholics don’t believe in Orthodoxy and Orthodox don’t believe in Catholicism, what would be the point of this entire forum altogether? Why exchange ideas, talk, debate, and speculate? What’s the point of any of it from your logic?

I don’t believe in RC apparitions because it is not my faith anymore than I would expect a RC or Protestant, (or for the sake of argument) Buddhist to accept Orthodox miracles. I believe that’s all I have to say on the matter because I find the whole title of the thread to be somewhat inflammatory. I don’t understand why RCs care so much about what other religions or churches think about them. If you believe that your church is true, who cares what I think. Nothing I say would sway you anyway.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But again, don’t put words in our mouths expecting anything. You might be surprised that most Catholics WOULD believe in your miracles as we accept your orders, validity, and graces!

Hindus have their documentation for their alleged miracles, as do Buddhists and Atheists (though they would call it science. ). Any supposed RC miracles is not something I think about. I do not expect you to accept Orthodox miracles, nor would your acceptance of them increase (or decrease) my faith that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Harpazo]

But again, don’t put words in our mouths expecting anything. You might be surprised that most Catholics WOULD believe in your miracles as we accept your orders, validity, and graces!

I’m not putting words in anyone’s mouth. And I am entirely aware of the idea that modern RCs have in regards to our Mysteries. It’s a nice sentiment, but it’s always tough to have a conversation about this because RCs accept us to reciprocate and it is something we cannot do. Then there a hurt feelings, tears, fist fights, etcetera, etcetera.

That’s all fine and dandy, but it doesn’t bother me one way or another whether someone outside of Holy Orthodoxy has an opinion or not as to our miracles (or our orders). We just generally do not discuss various miracles or dwell on them. They just happen and we give thanks to God and keep going on with our spiritual path. It seems like everyday there is some miracle that is commemorated. Perhaps, we just don’t put the emphasis on them that some RCs do.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Harpazo]

How on earth is it inflammatory? It’s a simple question about faith. And incidentally I think you’re putting words in Catholics’ mouths. Catholics believe that the Orthodox have valid orders, an abundance of grace and sacramental validity so most Catholics I know would believe the majority of Orthodox miracles. I do believe the reverse is not the case as the Orthodox do not recognize the sacraments and orders and sanctifying grace within Catholicism. What is inflammatory? It’s a simple opinion question. If you say “no, I don’t” then we say “ok.” It’s not that we “care so much” about what you think about us, it’s just theological and supernatural discourse that we have in here so where’s the harm? Going on your angle here, since Catholics don’t believe in Orthodoxy and Orthodox don’t believe in Catholicism, what would be the point of this entire forum altogether? Why exchange ideas, talk, debate, and speculate? What’s the point of any of it from your logic?

It’s no big secret that the purpose of this forum is to convert non-Catholics into Catholics.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Really? I never got that. What is your purpose, to be fair?

It’s no big secret that the purpose of this forum is to convert non-Catholics into Catholics.

In Christ,
Andrew