Eastern Orthodox Christians: Do you reject Catholic miracles and supernatural claims as false or lies?

[StevieD]

It’s no big secret that the purpose of this forum is to convert non-Catholics into Catholics.

In Christ,
Andrew

What are you doing here then? And so frequently. Why reply to a question several times saying only that the answer to it is irrelevant. Mmmm, interesting!

 

[Harpazo]

Really? I never got that. What is your purpose, to be fair?

I recall you saying likewise back in your Anglican days. Further, I recall telling you the many times you questioned my motives for being here months back. I enjoy the discussions here from time to time, but more importantly to correct the misinformation out there about Orthodoxy from my RC friends on these fora. At times, people come here inquiring about Orthodoxy and I’d like to help give them the Orthodox perspective. I’ve never made any effort to hide that. You cannot deny that there are precious little RCs here who will give the Orthodox viewpoint and understanding, but hightail it straight to the polemical articles (the one by Jimmy Akin comes to mind) which take potshots at Orthodoxy without even looking at its substance. Marduk comes to my mind as an exception.

Generally, it’s too overwhelming to share things with them because of the barrage of posts from RCs who shoot down everyone and question your motives (which is understandable to a degree). This has been why I am hardly ever active on here. It can be too depressing to share something about Orthodoxy without being harranged by 10 people at the same time.

Maybe from now on I will just reply to simple inquiries over PM instead of posting in threads.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hindus have their documentation for their alleged miracles, as do Buddhists and Atheists (though they would call it science. ). Any supposed RC miracles is not something I think about. I do not expect you to accept Orthodox miracles, nor would your acceptance of them increase (or decrease) my faith that the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

In Christ,
Andrew

Not sure what your talking about, this has absolutely “Zero” to to do with what I asked you? Not that I don’t grasp what you are saying.

God Bless, Gary

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Perception is a funny animal. My observation since I came on here in 2007 is that Catholic bend over backwards (sometimes overly so!) to the Orthodox and try to understand and respect them A LOT. I see the Orthodox attacking Catholic positions, especially the papacy, right and left, and Catholics sit idly by and go along with it often times. I have actually felt like Catholics are too docile to Orthodox posters and don’t stand up to their assertions and accusations. As you said earlier in a post, Catholics tend to compliment Orthodox constantly and get disappointed when you guys don’t reciprocate. You said that today?

Catholics passionately get into the “wow, can we reunite with you guys (Orthodox) soon!” and “what will it take for us to become brothers again?” type threads have abounded on here. I don’t see many folks who stand up to Orthodoxy. Gabriel of 12 is an exception.

I don’t see how you have anything to fear on here? It’s pretty safe territory for Orthodox Christians. I don’t see why you claim it’s safer for PM’s seeing as how you’ve always been treated well on here, Andrew, and in my experience most of the time you have many people in agreement with you?

I recall you saying likewise back in your Anglican days. Further, I recall telling you the many times you questioned my motives for being here months back. I enjoy the discussions here from time to time, but more importantly to correct the misinformation out there about Orthodoxy from my RC friends on these fora. At times, people come here inquiring about Orthodoxy and I’d like to help give them the Orthodox perspective. I’ve never made any effort to hide that. You cannot deny that there are precious little RCs here who will give the Orthodox viewpoint and understanding, but hightail it straight to the polemical articles (the one by Jimmy Akin comes to mind) which take potshots at Orthodoxy without even looking at its substance. Marduk comes to my mind as an exception.

Generally, it’s too overwhelming to share things with them because of the barrage of posts from RCs who shoot down everyone and question your motives (which is understandable to a degree). This has been why I am hardly ever active on here. It can be too depressing to share something about Orthodoxy without being harranged by 10 people at the same time.

Maybe from now on I will just reply to simple inquiries over PM instead of posting in threads.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Harpazo]

Perception is a funny animal. My observation since I came on here in 2007 is that Catholic bend over backwards (sometimes overly so!) to the Orthodox and try to understand and respect them A LOT. I see the Orthodox attacking Catholic positions, especially the papacy, right and left, and Catholics sit idly by and go along with it often times. I have actually felt like Catholics are too docile to Orthodox posters and don’t stand up to their assertions and accusations. As you said earlier in a post, Catholics tend to compliment Orthodox constantly and get disappointed when you guys don’t reciprocate. You said that today?

Perception is a funny animal indeed.

Catholics passionately get into the “wow, can we reunite with you guys (Orthodox) soon!” and “what will it take for us to become brothers again?” type threads have abounded on here. I don’t see many folks who stand up to Orthodoxy. Gabriel of 12 is an exception.

Perhaps, we are talking past one another here. A lot of people seem to have this idea stuck in their heads that because Orthodox do not believe in Sacraments outside the Church that it means we automatically think Catholics are graceless. That isn’t what we think at all and I would love it if people could get out of this mindset and look to what we really believe and teach, which is that although there are no Mysteries outside the Church, God can give His grace to whomever He so wills. There are those inside the Church who need it too!

Of course whenever Orthodox give the honest to goodness truth from our Church’s teaching, we get harangued and told that we have no charity, we don’t REALLY want unity and this and that, which is completely false. If we had no charity, we would be like the Unitarians and completely welcome everyone in to partake of our Mysteries without any care whatsoever as to whether they understand the faith or even the Sacraments for that matter. We’d abandon our centuries of tradition and teachings so we could make nice with everyone. It doesn’t work that way, I’m afraid. We do the same as the RC does to the Anglicans. Don’t you notice them frequently asking why they can’t receive the Eucharist at a RC Mass? Same principle applies.

I don’t see how you have anything to fear on here? It’s pretty safe territory for Orthodox Christians. I don’t see why you claim it’s safer for PM’s seeing as how you’ve always been treated well on here, Andrew, and in my experience most of the time you have many people in agreement with you?

I have nothing to fear on here, you are correct. But it is very taxing to present the Orthodox viewpoint when it is asked only for it to be smothered out by scores of zealous (though well-meaning, I’m sure!) RCs who think because they looked at Orthodoxy before entering communion with Rome that they somehow understand it so well as to give an accurate account to any inquirers (read: talk them out of considering it). Ultimately, it’s in God’s hands.

But, surely you feel the same way when someone says something inaccurate about Anglicanism or Catholicism and you try to correct it, only to be bombarded by a bunch of conflicting and confusing answers from people who know jack squat about it. Needless to say it can be frustrating and not too conducive to spiritual growth. I don’t have the energy for it anymore because no one wants real dialogue.

I will leave it at that. Have a blessed Holy Week, Scott.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Anna_Scott]

I recall you saying likewise back in your Anglican days. Further, I recall telling you the many times you questioned my motives for being here months back. I enjoy the discussions here from time to time, but more importantly to correct the misinformation out there about Orthodoxy from my RC friends on these fora. At times, people come here inquiring about Orthodoxy and I’d like to help give them the Orthodox perspective. I’ve never made any effort to hide that. You cannot deny that there are precious little RCs here who will give the Orthodox viewpoint and understanding, but hightail it straight to the polemical articles (the one by Jimmy Akin comes to mind) which take potshots at Orthodoxy without even looking at its substance. Marduk comes to my mind as an exception.

Generally, it’s too overwhelming to share things with them because of the barrage of posts from RCs who shoot down everyone and question your motives (which is understandable to a degree). This has been why I am hardly ever active on here. It can be too depressing to share something about Orthodoxy without being harranged by 10 people at the same time.

Maybe from now on I will just reply to simple inquiries over PM instead of posting in threads.

In Christ,
Andrew

Perception is a funny animal. My observation since I came on here in 2007 is that Catholic bend over backwards (sometimes overly so!) to the Orthodox and try to understand and respect them A LOT. I see the Orthodox attacking Catholic positions, especially the papacy, right and left, and Catholics sit idly by and go along with it often times. I have actually felt like Catholics are too docile to Orthodox posters and don’t stand up to their assertions and accusations. As you said earlier in a post, Catholics tend to compliment Orthodox constantly and get disappointed when you guys don’t reciprocate. You said that today?

Catholics passionately get into the “wow, can we reunite with you guys (Orthodox) soon!” and “what will it take for us to become brothers again?” type threads have abounded on here. I don’t see many folks who stand up to Orthodoxy. Gabriel of 12 is an exception.

I don’t see how you have anything to fear on here? It’s pretty safe territory for Orthodox Christians. I don’t see why you claim it’s safer for PM’s seeing as how you’ve always been treated well on here, Andrew, and in my experience most of the time you have many people in agreement with you?

Of course CAF is a Catholic Evangelism tool. That would be a given; but non-Catholics enjoy a great deal of freedom here. If that were not the case, I would not have spent the last two years discussing issues here.

I’ve taken both Catholic and Orthodox teachings very seriously. So, every post matters to me.

Harpazo, I would be very disappointed if you restricted your discussions to PM’s. You have a voice, and I am interested in what you have to say.

Gurney, I know you well and understand your intentions for this thread are not to put the Orthodox on the spot; but to simply find out what they believe about miracles within Catholicism. I’m Anglican, and I’m interested in the topic. I want to see what both sides have to say.

This is the best Internet forum I’ve found for discussion of ideas, agreements, and disagreements, among different faiths. Even if we continue with major disagreements, at least we can gain a better understanding of one another. That is at least one small step toward unity within Christendom, is it not?

Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well growing up, my dad always told me, “don’t talk religion and politics with folks and you’ll get along just fine!” Well most of the trouble I’ve gotten into has been talking one or the other! Perhaps we are talking through each other? You might be right.

I don’t think, exactly, that the Orthodox think us 100% graceless, but definitely if we have no Sacraments because our holy orders are junk, then we have no sanctifying grace, no means to be forgiven in confession, no Real Presence in the Eucharist, heck, not much of anything except what God would ordain to do to us outside the Church since, from the Orthodox viewpoint, we aren’t inside her.

I don’t expect you to say or do anything, Andrew, honestly. And I don’t see many Orthodox get “harangued” on here, seriously. It seems like CAF deals hardest with Catholic offenders than Protestants or Orthodox

Again, like I pointed out, I’m an odd botkin as a Catholic, perhaps I’m a hypocrite. Why? Because I don’t think Anglicans are invalid. I’m a pretty charitable guy. IMO the Orthodox, Catholics, and Anglicans have valid orders and grace that comes from sacraments.

In my personal opinion, the Catholics are far more energized to reunite than the East, but that’s just my opinion.

When people say things that are inaccurate about Catholicism or Anglicanism, I just try to charitably tell them the truth about it as I read it. Trust me, I don’t purport to be St. Augustine of Hippo here! (or St. John Chrysostom for you, Michael, )…

I think both sides have polemics and things can get heated. The child abuse Anselmian charge bugs me to no end and I hear that stuff a lot. You’re right when you say it’s in God’s hands, not ours. We can go all day and quote Catholic or Orthodox theologians and make great arguments, use the Fathers and quotes and councils and on and on but ultimately it’s faith and our gut. We choose to believe someone’s account of who the “real” Church is. For me, beyond not buying the Atonement stuff, I cannot accept that the Latin Church, guided for centuries that Christianized the barbarians and brought a proud and lovely liturgy and set of traditions across Europe and into the New World, that has the greatest, loudest, and most credible Christian leader in the world, is invalid and schismatic. It’s just not something my gut tells me I can buy? I’m open-minded so one never knows but at this point, the greatest moral, ethical, and Christian clarity in the world is coming not from Constantinople, but from Rome. That’s my fifty cents …but in believing that I don’t need to marginalize the Orthodox and think they’re invalid. See? I’m complicated LOL! My kids go to a Lutheran school! I’m ecclectic, dude!

Seriously, I hope you have a blessed holy week, too!

Perception is a funny animal indeed.

Perhaps, we are talking past one another here. A lot of people seem to have this idea stuck in their heads that because Orthodox do not believe in Sacraments outside the Church that it means we automatically think Catholics are graceless. That isn’t what we think at all and I would love it if people could get out of this mindset and look to what we really believe and teach, which is that although there are no Mysteries outside the Church, God can give His grace to whomever He so wills. There are those inside the Church who need it too!

I will leave it at that. Have a blessed Holy Week, Scott.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Hi Anna,

I’m struggling to make sense as to whether I believe them myself. Honestly, as you know, I’m struggling MIGHTILY to remain Catholic. I miss my Anglican parish a lot. And some of these supernatural experiences I have my own doubts about. Faith is a tough phenomenon to work through…

But in the case of the Orthodox, since they believe, by and large, that the Catholic Church is schismatic and thus devoid of sacramental charisms/graces, I would think they would have to reject these miracles as trumped-up or diabolical, wouldn’t they? I don’t say that to make them the “bad guys” but rather intellectually they’d have to reject them or else it would acknowledge that some type of godly grace and divine light shines down on Catholicism?

I’m trying to catch up with the thread… but one idea: would you find it interesting, Gurney, to expand this conversation to include the symmetrical case, i.e. Catholic opinions about Orthodox miracles?

On the case of Eucharistic miracles in the CC, and generally the validity of the Catholic Eucharist, one Russian EO acquaintance had this to say: “Don’t bring the devil to the cheasa!” (cheasa = chalice). And one ROCOR priest I know brought up the Catholic Eucharist, and made fun of it, how we Catholics drink the wine from our styrofoam cups, and throw the styrofoam cups with portions of unused wine into the trash. He might have confused it with some Protestant denomination, because I’m not aware of such practice in the CC. And he said, with a sly smile, “I’m not judging your Eucharist, I’m just asking!” So, when I found Joan Carrol Cruz’s book entitled “Eucharistic miracles”, which describes some 39 miracles in great detail, and some 150 other miracles passingly, more than half of which miracles happened in the CC after the Schism of 1054, I gave this book to the ROCOR priest, as a gift. I also gave him Fr. Robert J. Fox’s book entitled “Light from the East. Miracles of Our Lady of Soufanieh”, as a gift. I didn’t receive any comment or feed-back on these books. I’m not sure whether the priest who mocked the Catholic Eucharist even so much as opened these books I gave to him.

As a comparison, the Jesuit Catholic priest I discussed Orthodoxy with, said matter-of-factly, “their Eucharist is the Eucharist”. He meant that the Eucharist in the EO Church is the same Eucharist as the one in our CC. I also saw this acknowledged in some official Catholic document, that the CC regards the Eucharist in the EO Churches as the real body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Later on, I met an EO Archbishop (Abp. Paul) with the Society of Clerks Secular of Saint Basil (Basilian Fathers for short) - they derive their apostolic succession from the Russian Orthodox Church, and they were sent to America by Moscow Patriarch St. Tikhon, on the eve of bolshevik upheavals in Russia. This Archbishop told me that the ROC set up a commission to examine the validity of Catholic sacraments in the 18th century, and that they found the sacraments, and the Catholic Eucharist, valid. But today the Moscow Patriarch does not say anything one way or the other (valid or fake), as far as I know. Anyway, Archbishop Paul just asked me if I was in a state of grace, and showed me into the communion line, when it came to communion time in his Western Orthodox DL (they celebrate both rites, EO and WO).

But I think the Society of Clerks Secular of Saint Basil (see their homepage at www.reu.org) is an exception compared to mainstream EO today. Archbishop Paul, after traveling to Soufanieh, and praying in front of Our Lady of Soufanieh’s miraculous icon, says that he is not exactly eager to find himself on Jesus Christ’s wrong side on judgment day, seeing how Jesus Christ appeared more than once to Myrna Nazzour, and promised that if the clergy will not reunite our Churches, He will do it himself, and he will “rake it over the heads of those who stood in His way”. So, Archbishop Paul fully believes the apparitions, and the message of Soufanieh, and he doesn’t want to stand in the way of our Lord, and he also doesn’t want to find out how exactly will it feel when those who stood in our Lord’s way will have it “raked it over their heads”. Because, supposed our Lord meant the coals of hell when he talked about “raking it over”, it’s going to be hot for those who disobeyed him. As of a few years ago, the Basilian Fathers came into communion with the Catholic Church. They stay Orthodox, with their separate ecclesiastical structure, Church leadership, and Traditions. However, Catholics are allowed to Holy Communion in their churches, and they are allowed to Holy Communion in Catholic churches. One more victory for Our Lady of Soufanieh.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

what a fascinating post, Joseph! Thank you! It’s encouraging to know that SOME Orthodox accept us. I know that there is a mixed bag with the predominant view being “heck if I know” and some saying “no!” and some minorities saying “absolutely.” I like the latter!

I’m trying to catch up with the thread… but one idea: would you find it interesting, Gurney, to expand this conversation to include the symmetrical case, i.e. Catholic opinions about Orthodox miracles?

On the case of Eucharistic miracles in the CC, and generally the validity of the Catholic Eucharist, one Russian EO acquaintance had this to say: “Don’t bring the devil to the cheasa!” (cheasa = chalice). And one ROCOR priest I know brought up the Catholic Eucharist, and made fun of it, how we Catholics drink the wine from our styrofoam cups, and throw the styrofoam cups with portions of unused wine into the trash. He might have confused it with some Protestant denomination, because I’m not aware of such practice in the CC. And he said, with a sly smile, “I’m not judging your Eucharist, I’m just asking!” So, when I found Joan Carrol Cruz’s book entitled “Eucharistic miracles”, which describes some 39 miracles in great detail, and some 150 other miracles passingly, more than half of which miracles happened in the CC after the Schism of 1054, I gave this book to the ROCOR priest, as a gift. I also gave him Fr. Robert J. Fox’s book entitled “Light from the East. Miracles of Our Lady of Soufanieh”, as a gift. I didn’t receive any comment or feed-back on these books. I’m not sure whether the priest who mocked the Catholic Eucharist even so much as opened these books I gave to him.

As a comparison, the Jesuit Catholic priest I discussed Orthodoxy with, said matter-of-factly, “their Eucharist is the Eucharist”. He meant that the Eucharist in the EO Church is the same Eucharist as the one in our CC. I also saw this acknowledged in some official Catholic document, that the CC regards the Eucharist in the EO Churches as the real body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Later on, I met an EO Archbishop (Abp. Paul) with the Society of Clerks Secular of Saint Basil (Basilian Fathers for short) - they derive their apostolic succession from the Russian Orthodox Church, and they were sent to America by Moscow Patriarch St. Tikhon, on the eve of bolshevik upheavals in Russia. This Archbishop told me that the ROC set up a commission to examine the validity of Catholic sacraments in the 18th century, and that they found the sacraments, and the Catholic Eucharist, valid. But today the Moscow Patriarch does not say anything one way or the other (valid or fake), as far as I know. Anyway, Archbishop Paul just asked me if I was in a state of grace, and showed me into the communion line, when it came to communion time in his Western Orthodox DL (they celebrate both rites, EO and WO).

But I think the Society of Clerks Secular of Saint Basil (see their homepage at www.reu.org) is an exception compared to mainstream EO today. Archbishop Paul, after traveling to Soufanieh, and praying in front of Our Lady of Soufanieh’s miraculous icon, says that he is not exactly eager to find himself on Jesus Christ’s wrong side on judgment day, seeing how Jesus Christ appeared more than once to Myrna Nazzour, and promised that if the clergy will not reunite our Churches, He will do it himself, and he will “rake it over the heads of those who stood in His way”. So, Archbishop Paul fully believes the apparitions, and the message of Soufanieh, and he doesn’t want to stand in the way of our Lord, and he also doesn’t want to find out how exactly will it feel when those who stood in our Lord’s way will have it “raked it over their heads”. Because, supposed our Lord meant the coals of hell when he talked about “raking it over”, it’s going to be hot for those who disobeyed him. As of a few years ago, the Basilian Fathers came into communion with the Catholic Church. They stay Orthodox, with their separate ecclesiastical structure, Church leadership, and Traditions. However, Catholics are allowed to Holy Communion in their churches, and they are allowed to Holy Communion in Catholic churches. One more victory for Our Lady of Soufanieh.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

what a fascinating post, Joseph! Thank you! It’s encouraging to know that SOME Orthodox accept us. I know that there is a mixed bag with the predominant view being “heck if I know” and some saying “no!” and some minorities saying “absolutely.” I like the latter!

Thanks for the kind words.

I just forgot to say this: that business with our Lord raking it over the heads of those who stand in his way, refers to the laity, too. Archbishop Paul, who is a tough bada** Navy veteran (spent 20 years in the Navy, was a test pilot for Navy airplanes), told me the message several times, and the message is this:

The clergy should reunite our Churches. Reunification should start with the day of the Feast (Pascha). If the clergy refuses to do the job, it’s up to the laypeople to reunite our Churches. If both the clergy and laypeople fail to do it, our Lord will reunite it himself, and will rake it over the heads of those who stood in his way.

Archbishop Paul is not the guy who shakes easily in his boots. He is really a tough bada**, and owns several guns and rifles - just in case that someone would try to rob his church, or his home. But with this “raking over” business, he takes it dead seriously.

Regarding the Pope, he said “I’m not going to kiss his you-know-what. However, if the Lord wants me to kiss his you-know-what, then I will be more than happy to kiss his you-know-what. If Jesus Christ wants to drive a Chevrolet, I want him to drive a Chevrolet!”

He might have been talking about the Holy Father’s** ring**, or who-knows-what?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Beware of bishops packing fire-arms! LOL…

Thanks for the kind words.

I just forgot to say this: that business with our Lord raking it over the heads of those who stand in his way, refers to the laity, too. Archbishop Paul, who is a tough bada** Navy veteran (spent 20 years in the Navy, was a test pilot for Navy airplanes), told me the message several times, and the message is this:

The clergy should reunite our Churches. Reunification should start with the day of the Feast (Pascha). If the clergy refuses to do the job, it’s up to the laypeople to reunite our Churches. If both the clergy and laypeople fail to do it, our Lord will reunite it himself, and will rake it over the heads of those who stood in his way.

Archbishop Paul is not the guy who shakes easily in his boots. He is really a tough bada**, and owns several guns and rifles - just in case that someone would try to rob his church, or his home. But with this “raking over” business, he takes it dead seriously.

Regarding the Pope, he said “I’m not going to kiss his you-know-what. However, if the Lord wants me to kiss his you-know-what, then I will be more than happy to kiss his you-know-what. If Jesus Christ wants to drive a Chevrolet, I want him to drive a Chevrolet!”

He might have been talking about the Holy Father’s** ring**, or who-knows-what?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Beware of bishops packing fire-arms! LOL…

They (the Basilian Fathers) have missions in Guatemala, where they give loans to the peasants and help them acquire land, so they can produce their own bananas, instead of working for the big land owners. As more people acquire land, the big land owners have a shrinking pool of workforce to hire for their banana orchards, less people to exploit, paying them ridiculously low salaries. So, the big land owners are really mad with the Basilian Fathers… And Archbishop Paul told me, “They have been known to shoot at us. And we have been known to shoot back at them!”

 

[Mickey]

So Mickey, do you think many of these Catholic supernatural claims are really diabolical then? Just curious…

Blessings…

I do not believe in them Scott. The Orthodox Church has a long Tradition of teaching Her children not to trust visions or apparitions. The Devil can appear as an angel of light. He is sinister and the master of deception. Many of the holy Elders taught/teach that it is better to reject a vision that may be truly be divine…so as not to chance accepting something that may be diabolical.

I believe that even the RCC states that it is not necessary to accept the “approved apparitions”.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t understand why RCs care so much about what other religions or churches think about them. If you believe that your church is true, who cares what I think. Nothing I say would sway you anyway.

In Christ,
Andrew

Good point.

 

[Mickey]

God can give His grace to whomever He so wills. There are those inside the Church who need it too!

“The true miracle in the Christian tradition has only one purpose: to extend the Grace of God in creation, and God cannot extend his Grace without the faith on behalf of his creatures. Therefore there can be no miracle without faith."
Archbishop of Tiberias Alexios

 

[Mickey]

I just forgot to say this: that business with our Lord raking it over the heads of those who stand in his way, refers to the laity, too. Archbishop Paul, who is a tough bada** Navy veteran (spent 20 years in the Navy, was a test pilot for Navy airplanes), told me the message several times, and the message is this:

The clergy should reunite our Churches. Reunification should start with the day of the Feast (Pascha). If the clergy refuses to do the job, it’s up to the laypeople to reunite our Churches. If both the clergy and laypeople fail to do it, our Lord will reunite it himself, and will rake it over the heads of those who stood in his way.

The Church will surely be united one day. But it cannot be through compromise. It was bishop Mark of Ephesus and the Orthodox laity who refused the compromises of Florence.

St Mark of Ephesus pray for us!

 

[Mickey]

Of course. But I do not judge who may or may not have faith. I cannot read hearts.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Any miracle which allows followers to regain the vision of God and continues to do so for decades would be “impossible” to be of evil and foolish to think so.

The fact that miracles happen, and the mystical realm is well documented and confirmed is just a witness to its truth.

Also the ridiculous childish debate that “our churchs miracles” are real and your’s are not is just that, more nonsense and drival.

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a corner on the market in the catagory of miracles. And there’s little to none in the Orthodox Church with confirmation or research. Thats more Mohammad thinking, It is, because we say it is.

There have been facinating accounts of miracles through Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox. Should we say Zeitoun Egypt is the work of satan? Why not? What makes it different. No words were spoken, there were no Seers there? It was not predicted beforehand. How do we know it wasn’t staged? Look at Egypt today, what are its fruits?

Miracle of the Sun at Fatima predicted beforehand then happened on schedule? Never has that happened in history. Never mind it bought a Quarter Million followers to fatima last May and has contined to do so since 1917… They have regained their faith through the Miracle and intercession of the Blessed Mother their. The specifics of what happened become contrary to the fact thousands are bought back to the church yearly. How one can allude to the fact evil is in play is astounding and you will need support the ridiculous statement with fact and proof. Which you simply cannot do.

When Christians reduce themselves to this type of ignorance it makes one wonder what they accually think about the Prophets and Miracles of the Bible. Then the fact if that one clearly understand we are in Gods Kingdom which is very much linked to the supernatural in good and evil. Almost all the Prophets were laughed at, ridiculed, and disbelieved. Nonetheless their words have came true and continue to do so.

I guess it really depends on where you stand in faith and what you as an individual actually believe. None of which has any affect on those who have been in some way touched, blessed or gifted by God. And all those who have been bought back to God by intercession of God in real time. There are numerous real victorys which relate directly to the mystical intervention in many different ways by God.

The incapacity to fully comprehend and accept it is all thats missing here. Its better to say I am skeptical, than its evil and I don’t believe it, when in fact the truth is your not of knowledge, and just don’t know or are not sure.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Mickey]

I guess it really depends on where you stand in faith and what you as an individual actually believe.

Your own Church does not demand that you believe these things. It has nothing to do with the strength of your faith.

If you want to accept those apparitions—you may.

Here is a wonderful quote from the Catholic saint John of the Cross:
“All visions, revelations and impressions of heaven, however much the spiritual man may esteem them, are not equal in worth to the least act of humility.”

 

[Hesychios]

Your own Church does not demand that you believe these things. It has nothing to do with the strength of your faith.

If you want to accept those apparitions—you may.

Here is a wonderful quote from the Catholic saint John of the Cross:
“All visions, revelations and impressions of heaven, however much the spiritual man may esteem them, are not equal in worth to the least act of humility.”

An excellent point my brother.