Eastern Orthodox fundamentalism/hyperdoxy

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Here’s a great, well balanced article written by an Eastern Orthodox person, talking about “internet Orthodoxy” and these fundamentalist types in Orthodoxy.

He writes, in part:

"WHY THIS ELITIST ATTITUDE?

It is a fact that the Eastern Orthodox Church has a rich spiritual tradition and heritage. But, one might ask, if Orthodox Christians drink from so deep a well, why are many filled with such an unChrist-like attitude? This is a good question—and to answer it I will put forth an opinion that may or may not be sound. Many Orthodox Christians, converts especially, are filled with an intellectual zeal for the Orthodox faith. This is often called “convert zeal” because of its frequency in new converts and Ortho-interested-almost-converts. People filled with convert zeal seek to “evangelize” the whole world—especially those in their former tradition—into Orthodoxy. A lot of the time it comes across as arrogant and elitist—especially when the people sought by the convert are resisting what he “knows to be the path to union with God.” But if he is following the path to union with God, and is drinking from the deep well, why is he so arrogant? Doesn’t this discredit him and the effectiveness of the Eastern Orthodox Christian path? No, it does not. It means only that he is a sinner who is still at the beginning of his journey."

 
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Well, to some people this kind of attitude may seem hostile, however I believe this strict-like attitude is what has helped to keep the Orthodox Church unchanged and protected from any reformation. I know that Orthodox clergy is very cautious and conscious about the Church tradition, while it seems Catholics tend to be more liberal, accepting and progressive in this regard. Nowadays, we can witness some Catholic cardinals approving of Same-Sex Unions, Charismatic Churches formations and so on. The Orthodox Church basically never changes and its flock is very scared of any possible dogma innovation.
 
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Spyridon said:
The people I’m critical of would have said something like “lol does the latin heretic need a bottle? Papist gonna cry?”
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Many thanks for the comments. As I stated above, people who write things like this are in Westboro Baptist territory. They exist, thankfully in a minority, in the EO, RCC, Protestant and secular realms. Everywhere, all times. Two options, avoid them and/or pray for them. This is not the stuff of Christianity. I think responsible Christians need to vocally discourage this for the public record. I go for ‘unity’ on this topic.

As for venerating Mary, I suggest the Orthodox have been doing that for awhile now, i.e. in many cases even before 1984! 😊 Also agree that Russia is at this time opening up to Christianity in a healthier, more genuine way than the West, including Rome and the Vatican. They are rediscovering their roots, their identity. But still they do have their own ethnic, nationalistic tendencies to contend with - I don’t think all of Russia is venerating Mary anymore than I believe the US is a good knight on a white horse, with a Bible and US Declaration of Independence in hand, making the world safe for democracy. On a good day maybe. Mixing religion and the state mission is always a bit of a shark tank - the state wins every time.

As for Bishop Ware whose name I see in some posts, I admire and respect him and have read his books 3 or 4 times now over a period of years, but I do detect a sort of liberal enlightened Anglicanism, very Western Hellenism vibe from time to time. I am fine with traditional Orthodox correcting him respectfully, firmly from time to time. It’s healthy and necessary. That is just the sort of trojan horse the EO does not need, the more dangerous for its learning, subtly and good intentions. You don’t spot and identify the foreign influence as easily you do with our above quoted Westboro Internet buddies. Some Orthodox just eat that enlightened learned Anglican/Catholic stuff for lunch. They get seduced by it. Just my two cents.
 
In Orthodox countries, anti-abortionists nothing can do about it. There’s even no consolidation of society against abortion.
In Ukraine in small clinics do 20 abortions a week, it’s happening everywhere.
In Greek Catholic Lviv, someone can still pray in front of the abortive clinic, and in other cities all have reconciled with this social evil.
And the paradox: where was/is the Byzantine spirituality (Russia, Serbia, Ukraine…)there rule cruel tyrants, the countries hit the record on coruption, and among the people- fornication, abortion, alcoholism, poverty.
 
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People say that Kosovo is the stronghold of Orthodoxy, there are many authentic monasteries there, there is the stronghold of Orthodox religion, there is the unusual energy at every step, but let’s be honest and see the truth.
Kosovo will never be Serbian, since there are big differences between the Serbs and the Albanians, the difference is that Serbian carpenters earned by planing the coffins, and the Albanians by planing the baby cradles.
Do you understand the demographic difference?
The Serbs had had the power, money, technology, the media, had everything except one thing: - they have no children. Their women did not want to give birth, so only one pregnancy out of five wore to the end, and the rest ended in gynecological offices.(abortions)
At the same time Albanian women in Kosovo had six, eight, or even ten children.
When on TV you see Kosovo, the Serbs almost always in front of cameras, the trembling, toothless old ladies in headscarves on the heads which satisfy the sobbing shrivelled in their hands. When you see Albanians from Pristina or Prizren, then invariably the same picture: - a crowd of young, joyful, warlike young men, waving red flags with a black eagle. In fact, mothers who have many kids have not only quantitative but also qualitative advantage: there is the youth against old age, against the momentum of inertia, strength against weakness, the future against the past.
In the Orthodox civilization into the dustbin of discarded abortion millions of unborn.

There are many peoples which have disappeared from the face of history. Obviously , some nations will disappear and in their place will come the other once- the Muslims.
Interestingly, in the last few years of Serbs in the world accused of genocide, but they committed to autogenocide.( as well as Russians and Ukrainians) and implement it in the future. Today they are losing Kosovo, then, will come to Belgrade. You see, the nature abhors a vacuum. Who chooses the rule of death, he refuses to live. The question is - can this civilization survive if its destroys itself by abortion, alcoholism,economic inequality and off-scale corruption?
Poverty is one of the reasons why young people do not want to have children today, but in the Orthodox civilization, there is no consolidation of the society to resist such vices as alcoholism and abortion.
 
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Mary888 said:
I am Romanian
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Have you been to the Romanian Orthodox Monastery in Sighisoara ? Does it not have a metal plate on the wall saying that the Roman Catholic Austrians came in 1500’s or 1600’s and burned down the whole monastery? And as well burned down many of the Orthodox Churches in the area? And I thought that this plate was signed by the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew?
E adevărat, nu-i așa?
 
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I have never been to that monastery but I know the Austrian Empire did destroy a lot of Orthodox churches in the name of Catholicism and tortured people to convert them and I even heard they mistook Orthodox people for Muslims. Then the Jesuits came and checked up on the catholicism on Catholic Hungarian noblemen who were fighting against Orthodox people and priests. The Jesuits befriended many priests and some of them declared communion with Rome and thus joined the Greek Catholic Church. In my church even the ecumenists view this as a betrayal of Orthodoxy. Whether the Jesuits were tricksy or not it is not certain. But they did stop the violence done by Catholic noblemen in the name of catholicism and they did convince without the use of force bishops and priests to come in communion with Rome.
The Austrian Empire did this in the name of Rome but apparently not ordered by the Pope. It is also true that the Pope accepted the token - territories being declared Catholic - but it is also true that the Jesuits stopped the violence and the Pope did not stop the Jesuits. I don’t know if he sent them or what the history books say about this.
 
What is with the internet Orthodox obsession of bringing up sins of the past?

You don’t see me rambling on about the Massacre of the Latins - it’s totally irrelevent.

Sinful men living hundreds of years ago committing heinous acts “in the name of catholicism” proves nothing except that men are sinful - it proves no more than Orthodox fundamentalists in Russia TODAY going around violently assaulting “uniates” and “heretics.”
 
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During the period of independence only in Ukraine was destroyed by abortion the whole population of a multimillion-country.
 
@Athanasiy I would appreciate if you didn’t hijack my thread and turn it into a screed against abortion…

This has nothing at all to do with abortion. It’s neither here nor there.
 
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My knowledge of Slavic languages helps me to make some comparisons.
I am also fluent in Romanian which I have been studying intensively and dedicatedly for more than 2 years.
Studying Polish I try to read books in Polish and Romanian spiritual heritage I studied when dealing with people, and visiting monasteries.
I have visited some monasteries, few in Bukovina and Putna monastery in Suceava.
Sometimes the knowledge of language helps to understand the essence of spiritual problems.
Romanian Moskvo-Filia and West phobia has its reasons , which can be explained by historical factors, and to a certain extent by ignorance of the clergy, аnd it has a place in Moldova, Bukovina and Transcarpathia, also the problems of mass labour migration and secularization of society lead clergy to worrying concerns about the future.
 
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I know what the OP is talking about here…I’ve noticed this as well. It’s quite disconcerting and certainly a turn off for me. In fact this anit-Catholic rhetoric is a big reason why I never did convert to Orthodoxy. I don’t need anyone disliking me b/c of my ethnicity and my ties to Roman Catholicism. It’s part of the reason I’m staying where I am at for the foreseeable future.

If anyone is interested, the book Becoming Orthodox by Peter Gilquest pretty much sums up the whole Protestant convert issue that has affected (for good AND ill) the Orthodox Church. It really is a good book and I’m not trying to discredit it at all but it is one of the reasons why there are alot of protestant converts in the Antiochian Orthodox Church here in America.

And yes, I’ve noticed a similar vibe from the Rad Trad forums as well…it’s equally off-putting and it’s a reason why I stopped attending the Latin Mass community a number of years ago.

sigh…it’s tough sitting on a fence!
 
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Don’t worry too much that says Russia Today, because it is propaganda and only propaganda like a robot who is brainwashing the people.
 
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Read Аleksandr Solzhenitsyn, read a book about the Gulag. (The Gulag Archipelago)
The Gulag, the reign of criminals on different ranks, this is the spirit of Russia.
Orthodoxy is just a tool, a good weapon that Putin’s Russia can fight.
 
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The prison zone in Russia was based on" self-organization " of prisoners divided into small communities. This is clearly seen in the different descriptions of the Gulag, where there were these small communities, in most cases under the control of criminal authorities. Prisoners, and especially political prisoners who were not part of these communities, survived with great difficulty. The Almighty camp administration relied on these criminal networks to control the prisoners.
This system is built on fear, on servility, this system is completely opposite to the Western one.
 
People in the West who find themselves under the influence of Russian propaganda have the impression that the real power is no longer dependent on their vote or on institutions, and that there is someone who pulls the strings. In the West, many people believe that everything is controlled by the global financial backstage, Wall Street or something else. This is a very dangerous mindset, because it leads to the displacement of politics. That is why, by the way, the Russian media as I can focus on this and encourage conspiracy theories outside their borders. To export conspiracy theories they do not need to put much effort, they live in it. But there is also a macchiavel calculation — discrediting the parliamentary system and democratic institutions. If it no longer makes sense to vote and support a policy, once they are all corrupt, General demobilization begins. And this-help for any dangerous demagogue, no matter left or right views.
In the same way their propaganda machine is working against the Vatican, against the spiritual, moral, and legal values of the West.
 
Do you understand that Putin’s regime has no convictions?
The Putin’s regime can use Eurasianism, Orthodoxy, Liberalism, Stolypin ideas. But the government uses them, as did the Bolsheviks — they were instruments of the struggle for victory over the enemy. Whether it be internal enemies or external enemies. For KGB officers who are in power, the idea is only a tool in the fight to destroy the enemy, nothing more. And this you have in the West not understand. They believe that Putin protects traditional values. Many right-wingers believe that Russia is a defender of Christianity, not realizing that these conservative ideas are used by absolutely cynical people who do not care about values. The basis of this regime is cynicism.
 
Spyridon said:
“+ClanLcps What better rebuttals i need than the fact that half of US Roman-catholic priests in USA die of HIV.”
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😱😱

Dude, is this an actual fact? That’s scary.
“Tis_Bearself said:
As long as the Romanian Orthodox still let me and half my parish in for their fish fries and Romanian Festivals (awesome chicken paprikash and wine bar), I’m not going to let a few crazy Internet trolls bug me.
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Haha.
Mary888 said:
This is not an explanation, but many of the ones I tried to talk to from US are converts from diverse neo-protestant sects including Mormons. They learn a lot of stuff in catechism, many of which I will probably never have the capacity to memorize.I was admonished for it (justly so I must admit yet I did not receive a revelation from hurry and learn all that stuff after being floored by them). One told me that what is wrong with the Catholic Church is that it’s being founded by Latins who are proud people (and somehow incapable of sanctity) and when I asked what about Latin saints (Constantine, Elena and many others) they had to say those are acceptable because they are before the Schism but they did not retrieve the absurdity that they said about Latin people. I am Romanian, I am partially Latin, I doubt I will ever be a saint, it’s true our church is eccumenical and there are places here where Orthodox and Catholic bishops serve together. Tere is some nationalist proud poetry about us being Latin and Orthodox and thus somewhat special and I consider that out of touch also. We have many local saints who…
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Excellent post, thank you Mary! I was going to quote the entire thing but it was beyond the character limit.
 
dallas_r said:
Dude, is this an actual fact? That’s scary.
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NO it’s not an actual fact. It’s a calumnious slanderous lie. Which is why I quoted it in the specific context which I did…
 
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