Eastern Orthodox influencing Lutherans?

[AugustTherese]

Are you sure you’re not thinking of the Wisconsin Synod? They are vehemently anti-Catholic

“In the centuries after Luther’s death, Lutherans accepted this confessional statement without reservation or qualification. In the 1860s, however, doubts about this confessional statement were raised within Lutheranism. They arose from the Iowa Synod, which refused to grant doctrinal status to the teaching that the Papacy is the Antichrist. They listed this teaching under the category of “open questions.” The Missouri Synod took the lead, at that time, in defending the view of the Lutheran Confessions that the prophecies of Antichrist have been fulfilled in the Papacy.” - WELS (What We Believe, Doctrinal Statements, Statement on the Antichrist)

Doctrinal Statements – WELS

Here is what the LCMS ‘vehemently’ professes to believe about the ‘Pope of Rome’:

“As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)”

Which seems more ‘anti-Catholic’ based upon not mere opinion and/or anecdotal evidence, but upon substantiated confessional statements?

 

[AugustTherese]

The LCMS recognizes all Trinitarian church bodies as Christian churches

“We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists." - Brief Statement of LCMS, Of Justification, Adopted 1932 (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

I’m confused. Which one is it?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

The LCMS recognizes all Trinitarian church bodies as Christian churches

“We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists." - Brief Statement of LCMS, Of Justification, Adopted 1932 (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

I’m confused. Which one is it?

Where does it say Catholics are condemned?
How does the language differ in intent to the anathemas of Trent?

 

[AugustTherese]

Where does it say Catholics are condemned?

I am referring to you quoting, “The LCMS recognizes all Trinitarian church bodies as Christian churches.” And, then via the same website, stating, “We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists.”

I am asking you which is it? Does the LCMS confess the Catholic Church as a “Christian church” as you quoted, or, is She apostate, as I quoted?

 

[AugustTherese]

How does the language differ in intent to the anathemas of Trent?

There is an extreme difference. The anathemas of Trent, out of love for those who fall into heretical error, promulgate what is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, prompting an actual grace of repentance for those who have fallen into that error.

The LCMS confesses to believe that the Catholic Church is in ‘apostasy’ and that the ‘Pope of Rome’ is the ‘very anti-Christ’.

 

[Vanny]

I read something about it in a book explaining Eastern Orthodox doctrine as I’m investigating the EO.
I think it said something(I’m repeating from a google search I just did) that Lutherans made contact with the then Patriarch of Constantinople. They sent friendly correspondence back and forth but eventually the Patriarch ended the correspondence politely as the EO could not agree with some of their doctrinal points.
The book I recently read was “Know the Faith” by Father Shanbour and I think it was in there but can’t remember I’m not at home now.
I’m just a layperson far from any kind of an expert of theology just repeating what I had seen/read and remember.

 

[Vanny]

Yes I remember reading that the Filioque and other things were an issue.
The dialogue was cordial but ended then.

 

[Casilda]

Sorry I brought it up. I will just discuss this with my Lutheran friends from now on.

 

[steido01]

That’s about the sum of it. Jeremias couldn’t bring himself to agreement with ‘western’ Christians, and politely said something to the affect of “Dudes, you’re right on some things, you’re confused on others, we don’t understand what you western folk mean on still others, and please don’t write to us about theological issues - only as friends.”

That’s paraphrased, but the friends bit is accurate.

 

[JonNC]

I am referring to you quoting, “The LCMS recognizes all Trinitarian church bodies as Christian churches.” And, then via the same website, stating, “We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists.”

And I asked a question, where does it say Catholics are condemned?

I am asking you which is it? Does the LCMS confess the Catholic Church as a “Christian church” as you quoted, or, is She apostate, as I quoted?

The question was answered

 

[AugustTherese]

And I asked a question, where does it say Catholics are condemned?

Not only did you not answer my question, a closed-ended yes or no question, with another question, but your question has nothing to do with what I am asking you. This is commonly known as ‘Burden of Proof Reversal’; you are dodging my question by asking me an irrelevant question because you, and other readers (those unbiased) I would hopefully presume, can see the apparent contradiction in what I have have presented from the LCMS website, and you choose not to answer it.

 

[JonNC]

There is an extreme difference. The anathemas of Trent, out of love for those who fall into heretical error, promulgate what is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, prompting an actual grace of repentance for those who have fallen into that error.

The LCMS confesses to believe that the Catholic Church is in ‘apostasy’ and that the ‘Pope of Rome’ is the ‘very anti-Christ’.

If there is a condemnation of one group or another, it is from the Catholic Church against non Catholics, most particularly in Unam Sanctum.

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[JonNC]

Not only did you not answer my question, a closed-ended yes or no question, with another question, but your question has nothing to do with what I am asking you.

And your question has nothing to do with my comment to the poster. The fact is that the LCMS does not state that Catholics are condemned. Even the quote you provided doesn’t.

This is commonly known as ‘Burden of Proof Reversal’; you are dodging my question by asking me an irrelevant question because you, and other readers (those unbiased) I would hopefully presume, can see the apparent contradiction in what I have have presented from the LCMS website, and you choose not to answer it.

I’m not dodging anything. I’ve been on this forum for a decade, and have had this debate numerous times.
There is no more contradiction there than the contradictions between Unam Sanctum and some things said in the Catholic Catechism, #817 and following.

 

[steido01]

Oh, friend — please don’t be discouraged! Asking a true question is never an issue. It’s only when folks give false answers, or ask false, leading questions.

 

[pablope]

We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion

AugustTherese:

JonNC:

The LCMS recognizes all Trinitarian church bodies as Christian churches

“We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists." - Brief Statement of LCMS, Of Justification, Adopted 1932 (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

I’m confused. Which one is it?

Where does it say Catholics are condemned?
How does the language differ in intent to the anathemas of Trent?

From this statement…We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion…when the statement says we are in apostasy…does it not mean we are condemned?

 

[AugustTherese]

The fact is that the LCMS does not state that Catholics are condemned.

I do believe the poster who used that word, said he (or she) was paraphrasing.

The LCMS response? Paraphrased, “There can be no talks until Rome admits that it is and always has been wrong on all issues, and that all Catholics are damned beyond Redemption.”

Okay, so you do not like the word ‘condemned’. Explain to me how an apostate is not self-condemned!

 

[pablope]

AugustTherese:

There is an extreme difference. The anathemas of Trent, out of love for those who fall into heretical error, promulgate what is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, prompting an actual grace of repentance for those who have fallen into that error.

The LCMS confesses to believe that the Catholic Church is in ‘apostasy’ and that the ‘Pope of Rome’ is the ‘very anti-Christ’.

If there is a condemnation of one group or another, it is from the Catholic Church against non Catholics, most particularly in Unam Sanctum.

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

well…again…taking out of context this papal bull…and applying for yourself…and you fuel your hatred for the pope…going on to use it as the basis to call him the very anti-Christ in your confessional statement.

Question…can you name someone that is subject to the pope that has been led to eternal damnation?

 

[AugustTherese]

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff

And, every canonized Saint was subject to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[ATraveller]

“Know the Faith” by Father Shanbour

The description and reviews on Amazon make mention between the two denominations. Thank you.

 

[JonNC]

From this statement…We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion…when the statement says we are in apostasy…does it not mea we are condemned?

By the statement of the LCMS that I posted it obviously does not mean Catholics are condemned.
On the other hand, Unam Sanctum seems pretty clear that Catholics don’t think we have a chance of salvation