Eastern Orthodox

[manualman]

Gurney, an excellent post with excellent examples of the way the “organism” approach has served the EO well and preserved the ancient faith. Refusing to allow any development of doctrine and rejecting any theological ideas not found in 1,000+ year old documents is sure way to avoid theological dead ends and pitfalls.

But it also isn’t very conducive to prophetic leadership in changing cultures. Isn’t it possible that the same ethic of suspicion towards being open to the logical implications of revealed truth (i.e. the fount of doctrinal development) impedes the EO from prophetically addressing the root problems of cultures they encounter? Neither Islam nor Communism was conquered from within by the prophetic voice of Orthodoxy. Russian and Greek society suffers from the same disease as Western countries in regards to sexual depravity and contraceptive mentality, yet is there a beacon like the Theology of the Body developing there as a response?

I know I sound critical and condescending (which would be foolishly arrogant, because I’ve not contributed a whit to what I see as the superiority of the papacy as a leadership model), but it’s not my intention to gloat or be smug. I just think that despite the problems and disadvantages inherent to the catholic model of church, that there are unrecognized upsides too. And that those upsides are rather of greater proportionate impact than the downsides.

The purpose of the Church is to witness the gospel to all the world. By marching out to new places and new cultures, meeting them on their own ground and relying on the Holy Spirit to provide the insights needed to speak the truth of the gospel in ways that would shatter the defensive walls like at Jericho, the members and leaders of the catholic church have certainly made mistakes and even colossal blunders along the way. But those were an unavoidable outcome (sinful humans, you know) of the attitude and actions needed to spread the gospel to the whole world. We’ve lost that momentum in recent decades, but I think it is merely a pause, not a sea change. We’ll see, I guess.

 

[dzheremi]

Gurney: Good points, questionable use of question marks.

I would question in general what the Orthodox don’t “get done” that would be helped by a Roman-style papacy. It seems to me as an outsider that they’ve got this Christianity thing down pat. Heck, even the real “Orthodox with a Pope”, the Coptic Orthodox, have managed to have a papacy for much longer than Rome has (Alexandria was the first to use the title), and to change less than possibly any other Christian body in the world. Are they prohibited from “getting things done”? Not if having a Pope is what guarantees that! They’ve got one.

Where the heck has “the Orthodox approach failed”? Manualman, are you aware that both the EO and the OO have growing missions in Africa? And that as far as evangelizing these places goes, it’s kind of hard NOT to do that when that’s where your church is based in the first place. (Alexandria is in Africa, and the EO have had a church there for centuries, too.) The ancient Christian churches in Nubia were aligned with Alexandria, and there is still a native population belonging to the Coptic church in Khartoum (further south, in Juba for instance, the population tends to be Catholic). Ethiopia is an entire history of Christianity in itself, being the second Christian kingdom in the world (just behind Armenia, in the 300s). In modern times, Coptic missions have flourished in Kenya, Tanzania and other places in East and Southern Africa. There are Coptic churches now in Mexico, Bolivia, and Brazil. All these places also have EO churches, as do Argentina, Chile, and other places. Basically the only place you won’t find an Orthodox church is the moon and that’s only because the Americans got there first.

 

[manualman]

Obviously EO has deep roots in Africa too. I’m not up to speed on the evangelistic outreach efforts, so thanks for setting me straight.

Would you go so far as to claim that EO global missionary efforts are, per capita, on a similar widespread basis as catholic? It doesn’t seem that way to me, but I admit the possibility that I’m misinformed.

 

[Volodymyr]

Obviously EO has deep roots in Africa too. I’m not up to speed on the evangelistic outreach efforts, so thanks for setting me straight.

Would you go so far as to claim that EO global missionary efforts are, per capita, on a similar widespread basis as catholic? It doesn’t seem that way to me, but I admit the possibility that I’m misinformed.

Orthodoxy grows in Africa rather fastly because it is seen as indigenous kind religion, not from colonial imposition, like Protestant and Catolic religions. In fact this is great sucess of Catolic missionarism - Spanish conquests, French conquests in 16-18 centuries. But now I read here that Spain and Franse must have missionaries sent to them because Catolicism is dead there - replaced by secularity and hedonism.

Orthodoxy spread throughout Russia from Europe by Asia to Alaska, Japan and China by efforts of monks. Of course Mongols and Communist have interfered with this Missionary efforts but many in Africa, Japan are surprised to growth of Orthodoxy there. I am just now reading in journal Tomas about Orthodox churches unde Bishop Serafim of Sendai and reconstruction after earthquake. You can read about growth Orthodoxy in sub-Sahara Africa at site of Patriarchate of Aleksandria and all Africa.

Only church in Antartika is Orthodox Church. But yes, not yet moon as above writer mentions.

Orthodoxy has enough organization to get accomplish works of God. Now Orthodox missionaries must be to reconvert people left by communists for 70 years without faith.
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/modules/gallery/thumb_large.php?id=964

 

[manualman]

Yes, I can see clearly from your picture how there would be little culture clash for EO outreach in Africa.

There’s plenty of truth about the evils of colonial domination, behavior rather universal to humanity, I fear. But beware the “Black Legend.” (look it up) I’ve traveled North and South America and you find a telling difference between lands settled by catholics and lands settled by protestants. In North America (British influence), there are virtually no remaining indigenous inhabitants or they are corraled in “reservations” in lands deemed worthless by the colonists. In South America, Phillipines, etc (lands colonized by catholic powers), vast numbers of indigenous peoples still occupy their homeland and the Spanish folks rather quickly intermarried with the locals. Biased historical accounts aside, the facts on the ground suggest that the English were far more barbaric and xenophobic than the Spanish.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is a great thread everyone. I’m getting a lot from it…

When it comes to morality and dealing with changing times, crises, and issues, I observe that the Catholics view the papacy in its universal teaching authority as the perfect means to make social changes and make a difference. The Orthodox, being an eucharistic ecclesiastical body focus on the spiritual father/priest being the main source of such social and moral education and difference-making. The Catholic Church focuses more on moral absolutes and detailing and chronicling every moral dilemna and sin and ethic in great detail and issuing rulings on every one of them to the entire world. The Orthodox focus on the theology handed down, traditional morality within a modern context, and trusting each priest to be a strong spiritual father and guide to each parishoner. Confession in Orthodoxy appears to be more didactic, guidance-oriented, personal, and a roadmap. Catholicism uses Confession more for penance, is more anonymous most of the time, and is more related to the sin and not so much the counseling side.

My question to those posters who feel that the Orthodox haven’t done a great job in their countries in fighting sins like abortion or drugs or contraception through not having a papacy, are the Catholic countries doing any better? Take my wife’s homeland of the Philippines…homosexuality is RAMPANT there! And it’s considered cute and funny. I saw blatantly flamboyant gay stuff all over TV, at the mall, around town, and frequently involved in conversations everywhere. Also cohabitation, drug use, out of wedlock births, all of these sins are just viral in the Philippines. My wife has nieces, two to be exact, who are already pregnant out of wedlock in high school. She has friends having kids out of wedlock, cousins, acquaintances, and it seemed that almost every person I met there with a baby wasn’t married? I also notice that, since they don’t have divorce, they just go their separate ways and cohabitate with someone new? The Philippines is 90% Catholic. Every single person I met there living deeply sinful lifestyles go to Mass every weekend. Something isn’t clicking.

Take Mexico—biggest drug-dealing, crime-ridden cesspool of issues in North America. Predominantly Catholic. They also have legal gay marriage, etc.

Spain, France, etc. are super duper liberal, mostly agnostic or atheist, very secular and suspicious of religion in general despite many being nominally Catholic.

If you look at the Orthodox lands where the Orthodox Church is trying to make a resurrgenc after decades of Communist oppression compared to the Catholic Countries where theoretically the Pope’s universal teaching model should ensure good morals and strong theological dedication, I just don’t see much difference?

 

[dzheremi]

Would you go so far as to claim that EO global missionary efforts are, per capita, on a similar widespread basis as catholic? It doesn’t seem that way to me, but I admit the possibility that I’m misinformed.

I would not make that kind of comparison to begin with because it is apples and oranges, so it is pretty nonsensical. There are all kinds of historical reasons why the size or quality of missions may vary. To use the example that I am familiar with (as Volodymyr dealt with the EO in Africa quite nicely), there are very few Coptic churches in South America. The first Coptic priest began to visit Bolivia only in 1997, and there was not a formal church there for several years after that. A similar situation happened in Mexico, where the first Mexican family was baptized into the church only in 2001. Both churches have grown quite a lot given their humble beginnings (approximately 450 native Bolivians attend at Santa Maria and San Marcos church in Bolivia, for instance). The future is wide open for Orthodox Christianity in all parts of the world.

Coptic Paschal Doxology in Johannesburg, South Africa (in Coptic, English, and the local language)

Preaching the Gospel in Zambia (with a little help There are over 70 languages in Zambia!)

A little bit of the work of the EO in Sierra Leone

The “Our Father” in Swahili, courtesy of the Russian Orthodox in Tanzania (with an introductory word from the Metropolitan of the Tanzanian Orthodox Church – Patriarchate of Alexandria)

I could go on, but I think the point is better captured “off-line”. People are out there working, not really relative to Rome (which is the “established” church in many of these places, for better or for worse).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

“I Support a Free Assyria” even though the Assyrian empire fell over 2,500 years ago! Personally, I support a liberated Babylonia and Tenochtitlan too!

I would not make that kind of comparison to begin with because it is apples and oranges, so it is pretty nonsensical. There are all kinds of historical reasons why the size or quality of missions may vary. To use the example that I am familiar with (as Volodymyr dealt with the EO in Africa quite nicely), there are very few Coptic churches in South America. The first Coptic priest began to visit Bolivia only in 1997, and there was not a formal church there for several years after that. A similar situation happened in Mexico, where the first Mexican family was baptized into the church only in 2001. Both churches have grown quite a lot given their humble beginnings (approximately 450 native Bolivians attend at Santa Maria and San Marcos church in Bolivia, for instance). The future is wide open for Orthodox missionaries in all parts of the world.

Coptic Paschal Doxology in Johannesburg, South Africa (in Coptic, English, and the local language)

Preaching the Gospel in Zambia (with a little help There are over 70 languages in Zambia!)

A little bit of the work of the EO in Sierra Leone

The “Our Father” in Swahili, courtesy of the Russian Orthodox in Tanzania (with an introductory word from the Metropolitan of the Tanzanian Orthodox Church – Patriarchate of Alexandria)

I could go on, but I think the point is better captured “off-line”. People are out there working, not really relative to Rome (which is the “established” church in many of these places, for better or for worse).

 

[manualman]

My question to those posters who feel that the Orthodox haven’t done a great job in their countries in fighting sins like abortion or drugs or contraception through not having a papacy, are the Catholic countries doing any better? Take my wife’s homeland of the Philippines…

That’s a great counterpoint! The problem of sexual deviancy and contraceptive mentality (FAR sub replacement child birth rates) is a global one today. It has penetrated both catholic and EO defenses quite thoroughly as far as I can tell. How did this happen? I dunno for sure, but something changed significantly between 1920 and 1970. The generations that came of age then utterly rejected the view of human sexuality that had predominated for centuries before that. The catholic argument is that the sudden societal acceptance of contraception is the trigger event that caused it. I believe that Humanae Vitae prophetically identified what would occur. HV was widely ignored globally by nearly everybody, but it laid the foundation for a further development by JP2 he called Theology of the Body. It’s not a magic overnight antibiotic for this infection, but I believe it is the long term cure. Frankly, everybody else is going to simply die out! I don’t think it is a coincidence that it comes from the catholic side of the house, either. We’ll see if I’m right, but it’s how my worldview expects problems to be resolved (and has seen them resolved in history). It’s emblematic of the way catholicism reflects on revealed truth and discovers implications contained in previously revealed truths (i.e. doctrinal development).

But for now, you’re right: it’s a plague across the board. Italy has about as fatally low a birth rate as Russia.

 

[dzheremi]

“I Support a Free Assyria” even though the Assyrian empire fell over 2,500 years ago! Personally, I support a liberated Babylonia and Tenochtitlan too!

Haven’t we been through this via PM? Anyway, I don’t find it funny, but yes, I do support a free Assyria. The massacre of Sayidat al-Najat Church (Syriac Catholic) is no joke. The fact that Christians make up a disproportionate percentage of the refugees from Iraq (something on the order of 60%, when they are less than 5% of the population) is no joke. The very real extermination and disappearance of one of the oldest churches in the world is no joke. The blood spilled by the ever-rising numbers of Assyrian/Syriac/Chaldean martyrs is no joke.

No one laughed at the Assyrian levies in WWI, and there was nothing to laugh about in Simele in 1933 in the wake of British treachery, either.

Martyrdom is hilarious, isn’t it?

I’m not laughing, and I don’t think anyone else should, either.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Dude, you know me by now. You need to look at what I said and calm down. Did I laugh at murder or ethnic cleansing, Jeremy? Show me where I did. I laughed at the term “Assyria” which nobody has used in millenia. You were making fun of my “questionable question mark usage” and I didn’t throw a rod. Do you seriously think that I’m mocking death squads and corpses? Thumbs down right back atcha.

Haven’t we been through this via PM? Anyway, I don’t find it funny, but yes, I do support a free Assyria. The massacre of Sayidat al-Najat Church (Syriac Catholic) is no joke. The fact that Christians make up a disproportionate percentage of the refugees from Iraq (something on the order of 60%, when they are less than 5% of the population) is no joke. The very real extermination and disappearance of one of the oldest churches in the world is no joke. The blood spilled by the ever-rising numbers of Assyrian/Syriac/Chaldean martyrs is no joke.

No one laughed at the Assyrian levies in WWI, and there was nothing to laugh about in Simele in 1933 in the wake of British treachery, either.

Martyrdom is hilarious, isn’t it?

I’m not laughing, and I don’t think anyone else should, either.

 

[dzheremi]

Dude, you know me by now. You need to look at what I said and calm down. Did I laugh at murder or ethnic cleansing, Jeremy? Show me where I did. I laughed at the term “Assyria” which nobody has used in millenia. You were making fun of my “questionable question mark usage” and I didn’t throw a rod. Do you seriously think that I’m mocking death squads and corpses? Thumbs down right back atcha.

I’m sorry, Gurney. Looking it over I guess I do sound fairly extreme. The difference, though, is that your use of question marks does not aid in the dispossession of native Christians of the Middle East like mocking Assyrian nationalism does. You probably know me well enough by now that you don’t have to guess that that’s one of my buttons. The Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans are under two layers of foreign imposition, with “Kurdistan” built atop their homeland by the far more politically successful Kurds, and the denial of very real Assyrian historical and contemporary claims is the kind of commentary I’m used to seeing from them, so I overreacted to what I perceived as a similar comment coming from a fellow Christian (without the malice that the Kurds show, of course, but it doesn’t dispossess the Assyrians any less). Again, I apologize.

Assyrians do definitely still use the term “Assyria” today, though I guess I should have just said that and left it at that. Even during Saddam Hussein’s trial, Hussein chastised the translator (a Kurd) at one point for referring to Assyrians as “Kurdish Christians”, and recognized that the Assyrians were a people of their own identity and history, and are the indigenous people of Iraq (AINA, the Assyrian International News Agency, reported this from the trial at the time). It is part of a constant attempt even on the part of other Iraqi minorities to belittle and attack and kill the Assyrian identity, just as happens to the Maronites (another traditionally Syriac-speaking people) in Lebanon and abroad. It is a way of trying erase the true Christian history of the Middle East, and to divide and further weaken the indigenous Christians so that it’ll be easier to dispose of them once and for all. Yes, it makes me mad and I’ll probably keep yelling about it…though I’ll try to do that less to you specifically.

Modern Assyrian Nationalism: Now with 150% more demonstrations, guns, and school graduations

 

[Wesley7]

Hello, I have some questions about the Eastern Orthodox religion. What is the main difference between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy? Does their bread and wine become the Body, Blood, Soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus during the Eucharist? Why did they separate from us? What makes us the “correct” Church as opposed to the Eastern Orthodox religions? Does it fulfill a Catholics obligation if he/ she were to go to an Eastern Orthodox mass? Thank you very much.

I recommend a short little book called Orthodoxy and Catholicism - what are the differences? by Fr. Theodore Pulcini.

Its a comprehensive guide to this very question. What are the differences?

Taking the time to learn about them goes a long way to clearing up misunderstandings.

 

[Bluegoat]

Only church in Antartika is Orthodox Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Here we go again with the Bluegoat a picture says a thousand words maneuvers!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ity_Church_at_Bellingshaussen,_Antarctica.jpg

 

[Bluegoat]

Here we go again with the Bluegoat a picture says a thousand words maneuvers!

It’s just so cute! Apparently they sent the logs from Siberia!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And they’re still frozen even after the voyage! BTW, I just left the Sharks-Canucks game. We actually look like we’ll win tonight! Tough to be them Canadians at hockey!

It’s just so cute! Apparently they sent the logs from Siberia!

 

[JohnnyReb]

This is a great thread everyone. I’m getting a lot from it…

When it comes to morality and dealing with changing times, crises, and issues, I observe that the Catholics view the papacy in its universal teaching authority as the perfect means to make social changes and make a difference. The Orthodox, being an eucharistic ecclesiastical body focus on the spiritual father/priest being the main source of such social and moral education and difference-making. The Catholic Church focuses more on moral absolutes and detailing and chronicling every moral dilemna and sin and ethic in great detail and issuing rulings on every one of them to the entire world. The Orthodox focus on the theology handed down, traditional morality within a modern context, and trusting each priest to be a strong spiritual father and guide to each parishoner. Confession in Orthodoxy appears to be more didactic, guidance-oriented, personal, and a roadmap. Catholicism uses Confession more for penance, is more anonymous most of the time, and is more related to the sin and not so much the counseling side.

My question to those posters who feel that the Orthodox haven’t done a great job in their countries in fighting sins like abortion or drugs or contraception through not having a papacy, are the Catholic countries doing any better? Take my wife’s homeland of the Philippines…homosexuality is RAMPANT there! And it’s considered cute and funny. I saw blatantly flamboyant gay stuff all over TV, at the mall, around town, and frequently involved in conversations everywhere. Also cohabitation, drug use, out of wedlock births, all of these sins are just viral in the Philippines. My wife has nieces, two to be exact, who are already pregnant out of wedlock in high school. She has friends having kids out of wedlock, cousins, acquaintances, and it seemed that almost every person I met there with a baby wasn’t married? I also notice that, since they don’t have divorce, they just go their separate ways and cohabitate with someone new? The Philippines is 90% Catholic. Every single person I met there living deeply sinful lifestyles go to Mass every weekend. Something isn’t clicking.

Take Mexico—biggest drug-dealing, crime-ridden cesspool of issues in North America. Predominantly Catholic. They also have legal gay marriage, etc.

Spain, France, etc. are super duper liberal, mostly agnostic or atheist, very secular and suspicious of religion in general despite many being nominally Catholic.

If you look at the Orthodox lands where the Orthodox Church is trying to make a resurrgenc after decades of Communist oppression compared to the Catholic Countries where theoretically the Pope’s universal teaching model should ensure good morals and strong theological dedication, I just don’t see much difference?

Well there you go again…I want to point out to, the Protestantism gets blamed by too many for such evils and wrongs as well. All countries have problems with this, ones that are predominantly Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant because of the big thing the effects us all…

SIN

We live in a world that is fallen and the consequences are all around us. The earth is groaning waiting the fullness of its redemption.

The ironic thing is that the United States, probably one of the most socially conservative nations in the developed world, is predominantly Protestant. Catholics are the largest single group, but as a whole, Protestants have always out numbered Catholics here.

 

[JohnnyReb]

I actually had a wierd dream the other night that I visited an Orthodox church. I felt so lost but at the end felt at peace. None the less, it was strange. There were icons in the church, incense, lots of color, everyone stood the whole time…most people in the church did not receive the Eucharist…lots of bowing and kneeling and prostrating.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There I go again? What do you mean by that?

Well there you go again…I want to point out to, the Protestantism gets blamed by too many for such evils and wrongs as well. All countries have problems with this, ones that are predominantly Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant because of the big thing the effects us all…

SIN

We live in a world that is fallen and the consequences are all around us. The earth is groaning waiting the fullness of its redemption.

The ironic thing is that the United States, probably one of the most socially conservative nations in the developed world, is predominantly Protestant. Catholics are the largest single group, but as a whole, Protestants have always out numbered Catholics here.