Eastern Orthodox

[anna_m]

This is a great thread everyone. I’m getting a lot from it…

My question to those posters who feel that the Orthodox haven’t done a great job in their countries in fighting sins like abortion or drugs or contraception through not having a papacy, are the Catholic countries doing any better? Take my wife’s homeland of the Philippines…homosexuality is RAMPANT there!

Take Mexico—biggest drug-dealing, crime-ridden cesspool of issues in North America. Predominantly Catholic. They also have legal gay marriage, etc.

Spain, France, etc. are super duper liberal, mostly agnostic or atheist, very secular and suspicious of religion in general despite many being nominally Catholic.

If you look at the Orthodox lands where the Orthodox Church is trying to make a resurrgenc after decades of Communist oppression compared to the Catholic Countries where theoretically the Pope’s universal teaching model should ensure good morals and strong theological dedication, I just don’t see much difference?

I can just bring you the same examples in Orthodox lands

There where a lot of reasons why the Communists have taken power at the beginning of 20th century in Russia. One of them - the Orthodox chirch which meddled in politics and was corrupt. People just got tired of being treated like trash.
Good morals?
I don’t know where you came from, but in my country where Orthodox chirch is an established chirch I can just bring you the same exaples as you did in Mexico etc. Believe me 70 years of Communism didn’t make our people worse
We also have gangsters and drug dealers in chirches. I don’t know how about other traditionally Orthodox countries, but in Russia the Orthodox chirch is some sort of mixture of religion, superstitious beliefs, intolerance and intrusions of parish priests’ opinions.
You know, 90% of orthodox christians here attend the chirch only once a year.- to consecrate Easter cakes and eggs,
The Orthodox chirch didn’t need to ensure good morals after 70 years of Communism, we had good morals all these 70 years. These 70 years weren’t that bad compared with 20 years of “democracy” we have now.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Russia doesn’t know what it wants to do. Personally I believe its allowing us to believe its accepted capitalism. And to some degree it is looking like the West.

Now we know they don’t want the Catholic Church there, there’s a moritorium on how many Catholics could be in Russia. The Pope wasn’t even allowed to step foot in the country but via media transmission, untill very recently.

Its wants to side with Red China and Islam with Iran. And anyone else who is against the West. So IMO the plan there is still World War with the USA and World Communism when they are capible. I fail to see anything but problems there.

Iraq is another story we seriously need to control that country totally for now. Thats a gateway for Iran to Israel and the start of WW-III IMHO.

All Diabolic interaction. To see it any other way is to believe there is no supernatural.

God wasn’t joking or “kinda” suggesting to consecrate Russia. God says bring me a Pure Lamb? So what you bring him a crippled deformed, underfed Lamb? Hey God, its the best I could do. Well there isn’t enough humility and to much Pride on mans part and pure disbelief in God.

Wake up and smell the coffee untill they get off there duffs in Rome and consecrate Russian and release that third secret we are headed to doom. And no-one is coming along to save the day. Who Obama? hahaha.

God said…I’ll give you World Peace. Just do this!. And what do we do?.. we consecrate the world, the homeless, the starving and poor. Everyone except Russia?

I never seen anything like it, you would think it was intentionally being done wrong on purpose. There is no rising Eastern Church, no growing Protestant Church, the harder you look the closer you see World Chaos? NO glowing catholic church to save the world. Theres Gods word spoken through the prophets and then its “Your move”. But of course the next post will say “but you don’t have to believe that”. Thats what they said to Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah and all the rest. Smart thinking!

Tell me where is sanity? Today its violence and threats of violence. No-where is peace taken serious. The Pope arrives at the Holy Land and everyone talks peace and blessings and the minute he leaves its back to bombing?

The UN? They have officially become the world Joke. The world is so close to being Communist I could slavery around the corner. Islam is allowed to promote its chaos untill Communism steps on them like bugs.

What religion is taken serious? Please we could get Oprah on TV and the world would take her just as serious as anyone else.

Consecrate Russia what couls it cost to have every Bishop at theri own Parish together with the Pope get this done. We need to insist it as world citizens. It doesn’t matter if your Catholic thats all the more reason you shoould want it done. “What do you have to lose”. All we hhave is to gain. How about the third secret who cares bad it is. Who cares if the catholics thenmselves don’t believe it and or whatever reason its not read.

The Bible is abundantly clear throughout. God sends prophets when man travels off course. Well thats what he did at fatima. No unexplainable Natural occurance happened without direct intervention by God, predicted THREE MONTHS IN ADVANCE?

And like fools we are thinking? “Should we consecrate Russia:shrug:”

Naw lets wait till its being done from a mortar hole that use the be the Vatican.

 

[JohnnyReb]

There I go again? What do you mean by that?

I didn’t mean anything bad by it…I love you man.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Tell that to the Portuguese in my diocese!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You don’t have to sell me, Jharek! I hear ya. This cultus of Marian apparitions can get out of hand. I had a few folks into this stuff recently say here on CAF that we Catholics should offer up our good works to Mary so she can dispense them back to the faithful that need merit. My reaction:

In my area, Fatima is HUGE. The Portuguese here have beauty pangeants, a giant carnival that takes months of preparation, a parade that requires Visalia police to corner off half of the downtown area to accomodate the masses of people, a Mass for Fatima, weeks of rosaries for it, “feshtas” and all sorts of stuff. If your kid goes to the Catholic elementary school, you are required as per the school-parent contract to volunteer for the Fatima parade, carnival, and other Fatima events. My reaction at that time?

So when I hear some people say about the Orthodox, “I wouldn’t become Orthodox, it’s too ethnic!” I think, 'huh?"

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You are obligated to help out at the booths, walk/march in the carnival, and play along for days. Are you obligated to believe in it? Heck, I don’t think so but everyone does. I’ve never met ANYONE in my area that doubts it in the least. My area is staunchly Portuguese, Mexican, and some Italians with a tiny minority of Irish and Polish background folks. There are also some filipinos, etc. but not many.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yes, this is what really bothers me about it too. Although some of the actual Fatima messages I also find a bit disconcerting.

 

[dzheremi]

RE: Fatima et al., I don’t really understand the point of telling people that it’s not an obligation to believe in any given apparition if not doing so places you de facto outside of the common worship of your community. My home parish is also heavily Latino and so the devotion tends toward La Virgen de Guadalupe and…I dunno…I don’t necessarily disbelieve it, but I never practiced it. I don’t see it as a healthy thing to fixate on. And that’s kind of enough in and of itself to make a lot of people offended/uncomfortable, like how dare I question such-and-such a “revelation” or apparition or whatever. My reply was always “I dare because I can and the church says it doesn’t make me any less Catholic”…now I think back on it and it doesn’t seem like that is actually true, what with all the space carved out for popular “devotions” (sacred heart and whatnot) on EWTN, millions of books and tracts (and dollars) supporting the Fatima-miracle business, etc. All this stuff, while I suppose technically “extra”, does seem to take center stage a lot, and if you’re not on board, then…well…what’s wrong with you?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’re no troll, Jharek, but very UK in your use of “whilst!”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The problem with these apparitions is that they can usurp good theology. People get too into the whole apparitions thing, the local phenomena and they distance themselves from theological study.

 

[anna_m]

Russia doesn’t know what it wants to do. Personally I believe its allowing us to believe its accepted capitalism. And to some degree it is looking like the West.

Now we know they don’t want the Catholic Church there, there’s a moritorium on how many Catholics could be in Russia. The Pope wasn’t even allowed to step foot in the country but via media transmission, untill very recently.

True. We are regarded here as betrayers. For example, my mother in law said that we’ll be cursed and from a brain cancer (she had a friend who was catholic and died from brain cancer so now she believes every person converted to catholic chirch will die from that disease:shrug:. And that not to mention that many people here don’t even know that catholics are christians.

 

[Hesychios]

The problem with these apparitions is that they can usurp good theology. People get too into the whole apparitions thing, the local phenomena and they distance themselves from theological study.

I agree.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The problem with these apparitions is that they can usurp good theology. People get too into the whole apparitions thing, the local phenomena and they distance themselves from theological study.

I think a small touch from heaven from an approved apparition to those who cannot read or write or failed theology, confirms God has never forsaken them.

Miracles are for the unbelievers not the believers. Jesus came to save those who are sick and need of a physician, He did not come for those who are not in need of a physician.

An approved apparition is as simple the Gospel can ever get, without a degree in theology.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sometimes I wonder about that argument the Orthodox make that in many ways Catholics and Protestants are two sides of the same coin.

I went to a funeral today for a dear co-teacher of mine who died of cancer last week. Diane was a very special teacher and her funeral was very well-attended. Anyway, the music at this service wasn’t that far off from what I heard at the 5:30pm Vigil Mass this afternoon.

After going to the Serbian Orthodox Divine Liturgy, standing for 1.5 hours, keeping up with the high-speed chanted liturgy/theophanies, and all the incense and ritual, the Mass felt like a walk in the park!

Listening to the “once saved, always saved” sermon of that Baptist pastor made me squirm in my seat and my eyebrows curled as I almost lost consciousness…

 

[anna_m]

Yes, the situation here is quite close to the situation in 20’s: people are dissatisfied with the government, everything good we had left from former USSR is ruined too, huge stratification of society. And the saddest thing is that the Russian Orthodox Chirch keeps making the same mistakes as at the beginning of the 20th century. One of the many reasons people don’t go there is that it doesn’t have any social works and social life, there’s no such thing as “community” here, you can go to the same chirch for a year or more and you won’t hear any “hello” from people there. That’s why so many people feel themselves unwelcomed there.

 

[mardukm]

The only thing I can say is that the EO’s haven’t had a Reformation?

Ever heard of the Council of Jerusalem? You mean you are not aware of Protestant inroads to traditionally Orthodox lands to this very day? The MP has even had to use its influence on the secular government to restrict the rights of non-Orthodox in Russia. No centralized authority?

They haven’t changed their liturgy except in small ways? They’ve never had a Vatican II type situation either?

Ever heard of the Old Believers and the Old Calendarists?

They’ve maintained pretty solid morality

What’s your point? All Christians struggle with sin, from the one belonging to the most free church baptist church, to the one belonging to the most centralized ecclesiastical organization.

despite having no catechism and central authority and theologically speaking they’ve maintained solid ground? I can’t see where the “headless” aspect has hurt them?

The “headless” idea is a myth. The fact is, for most of its existence, the “head” of the Eastern Orthodox Churches has been a secular ruler, which replaced the role of the Pope in the ecclesiastical arena. I think the Holy Spirit preserved the EO faith that way, but it is simply a myth that they did not have centralized Church leadership during this whole time away from her sister Church.

The OO have had a different experience, and a different socio-historical dynamic. The centralizing force for the OO was not a head bishop or a secular ruler, but the natural insular and conservative attitudes that result from being a subjugated people under an outside power. Even the worst situations can be used by God for the benefit of those who love Him.

As societies become more democratic, the concept and need of central Church leadership will become more obvious to our Orthodox brethren.

Please don’t anyone think I’m proposing any sort of Absolutist Petrine model.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

They believe, just as Catholics do, that in the celebration of the Eucharist, the elements of bread and wine are changed to the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. I’ve never heard the Orthodox speak of the “body, blood, soul, and divinity” of our Lord-just body and blood.

True. I think this more specific theological language was borne out of unique circumstances in the Latin Church regarding heresies regarding the most holy Eucharist.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Montalo,

mostly it was the idea of the pope unilaterally adding something to the Creed, forbidden by the 3rd Ecumenical Council which forbade any changes and Anathemized those who did so

Just to add to brother dvdjs’s great response, It is not true that the Schism of 1054 resulted from the issue of filioque.

Filioque was begun to be professed in the Latin Creed at Rome in 1014 (it was pretty much universal in the rest of the Latin Church. At this time, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE thought that the Pope was making a unilateral addition to the UNIVERSAL Creed of Christianity, but only to the LOCAL Latin Creed.

It was not until 1054 that the matter came to a head. Cardinal Humbert, in his PERSONAL Bull of excommunication, had simply affirmed to Patriarch Cerularius that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Apparently, Patriarch Cerularius had modified the contents of the original Bull when he spread the word of the excommunication, and changed the wording to say that the Latins accused the Easterns of REMOVING filioque from the Creed. I’m of the opinion that it is POSSIBLE that Patriarch Cerularius may not actually have changed the wording, but simply related how he interpreted the matter while giving liberal quotations from the Bull of Excommunication in his own encyclical to the Eastern Churches. And it simply appeared as if he changed the wording of the Bull when relating it to the other Eastern Churches.

But you can see how, when and where the myth actually began that the Pope made a UNILATERAL change in the UNIVERSAL Creed of the Church. But that never happened.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[GaryTaylor]

Now we know they don’t want the Catholic Church there, there’s a moritorium on how many Catholics could be in Russia. The Pope wasn’t even allowed to step foot in the country but via media transmission, untill very recently.

True. We are regarded here as betrayers. For example, my mother in law said that we’ll be cursed and from a brain cancer (she had a friend who was catholic and died from brain cancer so now she believes every person converted to catholic chirch will die from that disease:shrug:. And that not to mention that many people here don’t even know that catholics are christians.

Yes I familiar with this, Theres not one more more catholic in Russia than there was 100 years ago.

Whats the fear of the Catholic Church, and lack of concern of the ROC?

Obvious dichotomy existing wouldn’t you say. I’m sure the TRUTH of Christianity is the issue

History my be a great indicator?

God Bless, Gary

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yes, thanks for asking

Ever heard of the Council of Jerusalem? You mean you are not aware of Protestant inroads to traditionally Orthodox lands to this very day? The MP has even had to use its influence on the secular government to restrict the rights of non-Orthodox in Russia. No centralized authority?

Again, yes, and I don’t see it as a big deal or a major point of contention
Ever heard of the Old Believers and the Old Calendarists?

I made my point
What’s your point? All Christians struggle with sin, from the one belonging to the most free church baptist church, to the one belonging to the most centralized ecclesiastical organization.

For a long time, the entire Church operated this way with the Emperor playing a key role. I seem to remember a council called Nicaea with Constantine involved AND the bishops with the pope signing off on it…
The “headless” idea is a myth. The fact is, for most of its existence, the “head” of the Eastern Orthodox Churches has been a secular ruler, which replaced the role of the Pope in the ecclesiastical arena. I think the Holy Spirit preserved the EO faith that way, but it is simply a myth that they did not have centralized Church leadership during this whole time away from her sister Church.

The OO have had a different experience, and a different socio-historical dynamic. The centralizing force for the OO was not a head bishop or a secular ruler, but the natural insular and conservative attitudes that result from being a subjugated people under an outside power. Even the worst situations can be used by God for the benefit of those who love Him.

As societies become more democratic, the concept and need of central Church leadership will become more obvious to our Orthodox brethren.

What’s your point?
Please don’t anyone think I’m proposing any sort of Absolutist Petrine model.

Blessings,
Marduk