J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Wow! I didn’t know that. Doesn’t that seem like an odd name for a Bishop to take - especially a Patriarch?
- Status
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
Wow! I didn’t know that. Doesn’t that seem like an odd name for a Bishop to take - especially a Patriarch?
**There is an Egyptian saint Shenouda who is venerated by Orthdox and Catholics alike.
Is this any odder than “Jesus” or “Christos” used in some cultures as a baptismal name?**
**There is an Egyptian saint Shenouda who is venerated by Orthdox and Catholics alike.
Is this any odder than “Jesus” or “Christos” used in some cultures as a baptismal name?**
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
The Hispanic culture is the only one I know that has Jesus as a common baptismal name (I think).
But, that is still different than a Bishop taking that name upon assuming his see. I can just imagine how the Orthodox would react to a Pope Jesus or a Pope SonofGod.
A
Aramis
Guest
I’ve met 7 or 8 children named Isa.
It means “Strong Willed” in the Germanic languages.
In Arabic, it’s a Prophet’s name.
I’ve met children of both genders named Isa.
As to the Vacant See of the Latin Patriarchate of Alexandria: Latin Patriarchates are merely glorified Archdioceses. It’s been vacant for years, since the see impeded dealings with the non-Catholic Christians.
It means “Strong Willed” in the Germanic languages.
In Arabic, it’s a Prophet’s name.
I’ve met children of both genders named Isa.
As to the Vacant See of the Latin Patriarchate of Alexandria: Latin Patriarchates are merely glorified Archdioceses. It’s been vacant for years, since the see impeded dealings with the non-Catholic Christians.
A
Alexius
Guest
The Arabic name for Jesus. I know of two cultures who use the name “Jesus” as a Christian name: Hispanic and Middle Eastern (Arab). I have known both Muslims and Christians named Isa.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
S
scapularkid8
Guest
Possibly a practice arising from the time when Spain was under Islamic control?
B
btdn
Guest
Jesus is a prophet in the Qur’an.
D
DL82
Guest
A Spanish friend named Jesus told me that it dates back to when the Christians liberated Spain. The Muslims who converted to Christianity usually took Christian names. Special permission was given for Muslims called Muhammad (which is common for the first-born in Muslim families) to change their name to Jesus - the founder of one faith for the founder of the other. The tradition has just stuck.
The name ‘son of God’ (with a small s) can mean a whole range of things. We are all adopted sons of God. The angels are referred to in the Old Testament as the sons of God, so is the nation of Israel. There are saints with names like Seraphin, Blessed (as in Benedict, as in Benedict XIV) Pius, Spirit (Spyridon) * Innocent, Undying* (the translation of St Athanasius) and many other seemingly blasphemous names. We are all God’s children though.
"1. Pope Shenouda III (the name means “Son of God” btw.)
- Pope Theodore II
- Patriarch Antonius Naguib
- Patriarch Gregory III
- Latin patriarch: defunct."
B
btdn
Guest
Hrmm. In thinking you got it backwards, I got it backwards myself. I take it that is how it got into Spanish usage, not the other way around.
Or maybe I have it backwards again.
S
scapularkid8
Guest
Yes I know, that’s why they use the name Isa as a first given name. That’s where I “hypothesized” that the practice of using Jesus/Isa/Yasue3 as a first name was transferred from the Muslim Spaniards to the Catholic Christian Spaniards and that’s why it’s the only two cultures that we see it as a given name. (not sure if I was fully understood on that, just clarifying
)
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
Jesus is a prophet in the Qur’an.
The entity called “jesus” in the Coran bears no reslemblance to the Jesus of Christianity, who is God Incarnate risen from the dead.
The entity called “jesus” in the Coran bears no reslemblance to the Jesus of Christianity, who is God Incarnate risen from the dead.
M
malphono
Guest
Just my “2 cents” as it were, and I do hope no one will jump down my throat.
I am not literate in Coptic, but I do know that there are Egyptian Copts who bear the surname “Shenouda”. It is, of course, not very likely that this has anything to do with converted (i.e. former) Muslims. Perhaps Isa Almisry can enlighten us further on the origins of the name itself.
I am not literate in Coptic, but I do know that there are Egyptian Copts who bear the surname “Shenouda”. It is, of course, not very likely that this has anything to do with converted (i.e. former) Muslims. Perhaps Isa Almisry can enlighten us further on the origins of the name itself.
A
Alexius
Guest
Possibly, but it is also a name used among Arab Christians…
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
- the Greek/Eastern Orthodox Pope
- The Coptic Archbishop under the Vatican
- The Melkite Patriarch (a personal union of sorts with him as patriarch of the Melkites in Antioch) under the Vatican.
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
Nothing much to say, except that “surnames” in Egypt are actually your grandfather’s name.
There are actually Muslims who have the name: in the Libyan Desert all the way to Chad are villages where the Muslims retain Christian customs like the names and even Crosses. I posted in NCRF a story of a Muslim from such a village who came looking for a Bible when he found out that the Cross was a symbol for the Christians and the Bible was there book.
M
malphono
Guest
Thank you, Isa, for weighing-in. I appreciate your comments and insights.
Yes, I believe that is indeed correct, at least in some instances. A similar practice has existed in the Levant from time immemorial, and there, at least, ( – btw, along with not being literate in Coptic, I am also only partially familiar with Egyptian customs. While some are similar to those of the Levant, even those customs that are similar often differ in many respects --), behind the somewhat fluid surnames is the actual family name (i.e., the “beit”). In some families, the surname is that of the “beit” while in others it derives from the given-name of the grandfather, (or father, or great-grandfather, etc., thus giving rise to a familial spur that I will call a “sub-‘beit’” for lack of a better term off hand).
Let’s look at two examples from present-day Egypt: the President is Moubarak, but doesn’t his son also use that same surname? On the Coptic side we have Boutrous-Ghali. On the surface, the name would seem to be a combination of patronymic and family (“beit”) but of course I could be wrong.
Anyway, I am curious about the actual derivation and meaning of the name “Shenouda” be it a given-name or a surname. I’m also interested to know the proper Coptic pronunciation: is the “ou” a dipthong, (“Sh-NAW-da”) or is it the equivalent of a long vowel, (“She-NOO-da”)?
As an aside, thanks for the story about non-Christians and the retention of certain customs: it’s almost amazing after so many hundreds of years. The story was very edifying and even encouraging, and I don’t doubt that it’s based in fact. Also very interesting that it took place in a rather remote region.
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
Yes, in Egypt, more so in the past century some ancestor is retained as the patriarch (and namesake) of the family. Also, names of origin (city/tribe) are also common enough.
The last one is the one in modern Eg. Arabic Sha-nu-da(h).
In Coptic it should be Sheh-NOO-dee.
Doesn’t have to be so remote: a family in my old parish converted to Orthodoxy and became active members when the old grandmother, who was life-long Orthodox, had to be buried. They were hooked by the funeral service. Yes, these dry bones can live. Alleluia!
- Status