Eastern Rite Theology vs Dogma

[yeshua]

I’d appreciate it if the thread would stay on track and reason the issues out, rather than devolving into ad hominum statements or the answer that “it’s complicated.” If it helps any, I’ll confess that I’m EO eek: ), converted from RC many years ago. Kinda’ puts the “newfound Latin Catholic observer” statement in a different light, but that’s OK-- I’ve been called lots worse.

Forgive me, I thought the recent purged removed those few Orthodox who had the gall to come and pontificate to us, rather than those people who exemplified the charity of Holy Orthodoxy, more often than not a charity not found amongst my fellow Catholics. This would explain my mishap in labeling. It’s too bad that this forum abstraction has seemed to leave the most tragic from every camp, myself included.

If you are a convert, it makes you no more credible to dictate the heritages of these people in question. Don’t walk in here and presume you have such an authority.

Don’t condescend to me, sir, nor my theology. Forgive me for derailing this thread, or what’s left of it, my condolences to my fellow Eastern and Oriental Catholics.

Peae and God Bless.

 

[jimmy]

Thats true but only the Church guidance is infallible.

We can think were being guided and be mistaken. The Church cannot.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t contradict and he comes to us infallibly through the Church. Jesus said so not the Church herself. This is why Jesus personally taught the apostles before sending them out into the world and why we have apostolic succession in the first place. Its entirely necessary to know Gods will for all of man kind. This does not mean were aren’t personally called to descern for ourselves.

The problem comes in with the accuser and his tricks to kill us. He wants to lead us astray any way he can because he hates us. This is also why the Church is infallible in its protection and why we must make it our point of reference because our interpretations cannot contradict with the Church any more than with the Holy Spirit Himself.

You speak like the Church is some entity that is apart from us. We are the Church. You speak like the Church legislates and we just follow. But the Church is more organic than that. We are part of the handing on of the faith. Augustine speaks of the fact that the Church will never apostasize. He mentions that there will never be a time when the whole church is in heresy. There will always be people who believe. He is including the people in it, not just the bishops. The Holy Spirit guides us and by guiding us He also guides the Church. There may be some sense in which the bishops are guided in an extraordinary way but there is no dichotomy as you have given the impression. The bishops are not another class within the Church. There is only the people of God and the bishops are part of this. The bishops have a specific authority but that authority is not to define and define and define some more. As pope Benedict has said the job of the pope is not to define new dogmas but to protect that which has been given to us.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Yes, he is our pope too, but he doesn’t hold the same place in the east that he does in the west. We accept him as first among equals but we do not believe in papal supremacy or papal infallibility.

Right there, let’s be clear this is your understanding and formulation.

To be sure, some hierarchs have expressed as much also - so you are not alone in the thinking.

But there is more to consider still. Fr J Steele of the Holy Cross Fathers writes:

There is, of course, volumes to be said about the specifics of the Petrine ministry which make is unique both in scripture and in history. This is not about sacramental equality, it is about authority which is a separate matter. The eucharist confected by any priest is sacramentally identical to that confected by a bishop or patriarch. But there are distinctions of authority. A patriarch is sacramentally identical to any other bishop, but his role is distinct.

The real question is whether Rome’s authority in relation to other patriarchs, or college of bishops, is analogous to the authority of a Patriarch to other bishops.

From a Western point of view it is not analogous. It seems we should look more specifically at the historical and specifically the scriptural evidence rather than to repeat dogmatic formulae.

Some interesting points.

But, to be clear, you are not offering the singular perspective of the East in saying that all of us who are Eastern share in your tacit rejection of Peterine ministry as offered at Vatican I. It would be remarkably unfair - a bit of a non sequitar - to just then dismiss out of hand those of us that share in the view of the Latins as “latinized” or inauthentic.

 

[jimmy]

Fear not, Rome is not out to change your traditions but you musn’t be afraid for them to change either or then to point to the unification with Rome as the cause.

Peace, I have to go.

Too bad they have been doing it for the past 800 years, ever since we came into communion. Look at the Jesuits the pope sent to update the Maronite Church after Trent. They changed our liturgical books and burned those which did not agree with them. We look for Rome to let us live our lives and faith as it is.

 

[bogoljub]

The progress of the Holy Spirit will be prevented by those who think they can define the faith, who think they can contain God in their mind.

Who said they come from God? So now the Latins have the right to say they have recieved revelations from God and can define Syriac or Greek theology?

No, she isn’t. Rome has realized that there can be no ecumenical dialogue with the east if they continue to define dogmas. They will not define any new dogmas any time soon for this reason.

All the apostles were given the keys in Matt.18, so the bishops have the keys as well.

You misunderstand what tradition is. It is not simply fasting on certain days or performing certain acts. It is the faith handed down. Our tradition is given to us by our fathers, it is not given from Rome. So this has nothing to do with the pharisees. Look what Paul said to the Corinthians, he praised them for holding to the traditions handed on to them. Just like we have no right to change our tradition, Rome has no right to change our tradition.

God bless!

It is too easy to think we can do what we want the Holy Spirit will guide us ! He will guide us for sure if we make ourselfs pure vessels. But he is not given to everyone in every state !

I think everyone who is fair and true will see that many Popes were fallable ( like others) and made mistakes in many matters.

Only in the living Tradition and the “mind” of the Holy Fathers we can find truth and infallability! But we have to be worthy !

St. Maximus the great said:
Theology without ascesis is the Theology of Demons !

You only have to go to a rcc theologic university ( I was there for a while) and u will see that everyone can study theology.
Theology has become like a secular sience !
It is not important if u are a worthy vessel of Holy Theology or if u are faithful or how u live u only have to learn and make the tests - than u are a good theologian ??? From such theologians only some secular conceptions can come out - nothing more!

In CHRIST

 

[jimmy]

Right there, let’s be clear this is your understanding and formulation.

To be sure, some hierarchs have expressed as much also - so you are not alone in the thinking.

But there is more to consider still. Fr J Steele of the Holy Cross Fathers writes:

Some interesting points.

But, to be clear, you are not offering the singular perspective of the East in saying that all of us who are Eastern share in your tacit rejection of Peterine ministry as offered at Vatican I. It would be remarkably unfair - a bit of a non sequitar - to just then dismiss out of hand those of us that share in the view of the Latins as “latinized” or inauthentic.

I would never call you inauthentic, but you can’t deny being latinized.

 

[chrisb]

God bless!

It is too easy to think we can do what we want the Holy Spirit will guide us ! He will guide us for sure if we make ourselfs pure vessels. But he is not given to everyone in every state !

I think everyone who is fair and true will see that many Popes were fallable ( like others) and made mistakes in many matters.

Only in the living Tradition and the “mind” of the Holy Fathers we can find truth and infallability! But we have to be worthy !

St. Maximus the great said:
Theology without ascesis is the Theology of Demons !

You only have to go to a rcc theologic university ( I was there for a while) and u will see that everyone can study theology.
Theology has become like a secular sience !
It is not important if u are a worthy vessel of Holy Theology or if u are faithful or how u live u only have to learn and make the tests - than u are a good theologian ??? From such theologians only some secular conceptions can come out - nothing more!

In CHRIST

This ideas of individuals studying the ‘science of Theology’ is frightful to me.

It was once the teaching of the ‘whole’ of Christianity that the Saints were the ‘worthy vessel’ given ‘theological sight’ into the mysteries of our Faith (God-Seers).

I honestly believe we need to get back to this…

 

[jimmy]

God bless!

It is too easy to think we can do what we want the Holy Spirit will guide us ! He will guide us for sure if we make ourselfs pure vessels. But he is not given to everyone in every state !

I think everyone who is fair and true will see that many Popes were fallable ( like others) and made mistakes in many matters.

Only in the living Tradition and the “mind” of the Holy Fathers we can find truth and infallability! But we have to be worthy !

St. Maximus the great said:
Theology without ascesis is the Theology of Demons !

You only have to go to a rcc theologic university ( I was there for a while) and u will see that everyone can study theology.
Theology has become like a secular sience !
It is not important if u are a worthy vessel of Holy Theology or if u are faithful or how u live u only have to learn and make the tests - than u are a good theologian ??? From such theologians only some secular conceptions can come out - nothing more!

In CHRIST

I agree 100% boguljub, Theology apart from a spiritual life is dead. This is the essence of eastern Christian life. As Evagrios said, ‘he who prays truely is a theologian and he who is a theologian prays truely.’ You can only know God by becoming pure and having communion with God. It is experiential. God will guide you with His Spirit more as you grow in communion with God.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I would never call you inauthentic, but you can’t deny being latinized.

I most certainly can.

I won’t live up to ***Jimmy’s litmus test *** to be sure because I haven’t adopted wholesale certain arguments of Orthodox apologists from the last few centruies - it does not mean that I am Latinized.

I would like to see more evidence presented on your part wiht sources to demonstrate that your understanding is the definative understanding to be held if you are going to offer it as such.

 

[HailMary]

That is a dead EC. It is basically latins playing dressup. It is vanity. You like insence and priests with beards and you like an old liturgy but that is all vanity if it doesn’t come with eastern theology.

And this coming from the guy who can’t make the distinction between mortal and venial sin (if my memory serves me correctly).

Perhaps your, for lack of a better word, primitive, understanding, of sin can be *developed *if you did a better job of respecting the Western theologians: start with St. Thomas.

 

[Joab_Anias]

You speak like the Church is some entity that is apart from us. We are the Church. You speak like the Church legislates and we just follow. But the Church is more organic than that. We are part of the handing on of the faith.

It is an organic entity but in its final declarations it is infallible. Thus we will always have those on the fringe of decent and they must overcome that tendancy and ascend to the infallibility of the Church as it speaks for all of us.

I am not acustomed to Eastern Churches WANTING to be a part with Rome. As you do your voice is then definitly a part of it and heard and considered.

One more reply and I am off to work.

 

[fulloffaith]

Would you people PLEASE stop it with all these mind and word games?! As i asked before, please state clearly, i say again, CLEARLY what distinguishes Eastern Catholics from Roman ones
other than liturgy.

Thanks.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Too bad they have been doing it for the past 800 years, ever since we came into communion. Look at the Jesuits the pope sent to update the Maronite Church after Trent. They changed our liturgical books and burned those which did not agree with them. We look for Rome to let us live our lives and faith as it is.

It is detrimental to my personal spirituality to focus on accusations as such. I must say this remark leaves me flabbergasted and discouraged but I wont take the bait to start pointing fingers like you do.

Rome is encompassing. When you say you want Rome to let you live your life then I say Go Live it and leave us to the same. Like all prodigal sons, once they have squandered their inheritances they are welcomed home. I know I was.

Be aware though that its YOUR own bishops who make up a part of Rome so what you are in dissent from is their judgment also.

What pride and arrogance costs us is respect for anyone but ourselves.

Your in my prayers. G’ Night.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Would you people PLEASE stop it with all these mind and word games?! As i asked before, please state clearly, i say again, CLEARLY what distinguishes Eastern Catholics from Roman ones
other than liturgy.

Thanks.

Its the Christian way to speak in parables.

 

[fulloffaith]

Its the Christian way to speak in parables.

Thank you for bringing us so much closer together, Anias

 

[wannabee]

You have to remember that we Easterners do not like legalities - we prefer Mysteries

 

[jimmy]

Would you people PLEASE stop it with all these mind and word games?! As i asked before, please state clearly, i say again, CLEARLY what distinguishes Eastern Catholics from Roman ones
other than liturgy.

We are distinguished by theology, tradition and spirituality. I think that LakaYaRabb and Woodstock have posted on other threads some conciliar and canon quotes that mention this. To tell the truth, in essentials we agree, on non-essentials there is freedom. The essential aspect of original sin that we agree on is that all men need a savior. Since Adam we are all fallen and we all need a savior. The essential aspect of the Immaculate Conception is Mary’s purity and freedom from sin. We all agree that Mary never sinned but we do not agree on details. In the details there is freedom.

This might be my most sane post on this thread. The others were a little reactionary, although they are pretty much true.

 

[jimmy]

And this coming from the guy who can’t make the distinction between mortal and venial sin (if my memory serves me correctly).

Perhaps your, for lack of a better word, primitive, understanding, of sin can be *developed *if you did a better job of respecting the Western theologians: start with St. Thomas.

Eastern Christianity does not make this distinction. I understand sin perfectly fine. I would rather not discuss this. Let us just respect that we disagree.

 

[jimmy]

I most certainly can.

I won’t live up to ***Jimmy’s litmus test ***to be sure because I haven’t adopted wholesale certain arguments of Orthodox apologists from the last few centruies - it does not mean that I am Latinized.

I would like to see more evidence presented on your part wiht sources to demonstrate that your understanding is the definative understanding to be held if you are going to offer it as such.

It is irrelevant. We are both Eastern Catholic. You have come to your view of how things are and I have come to my view.

 

[jam070406]

jimmy,
I have to admit I am a little hurt by some of your posts and your apparant negative opinion of latin Catholics.