Eastern Rite Theology vs Dogma

[jimmy]

jimmy,
I have to admit I am a little hurt by some of your posts and your apparant negative opinion of latin Catholics.

I was a little angry with many of those posts and I apologize. I was wrong. I should have reacted a little more sanely. I was a little angry that people insist on telling me that I must submitt to western constructs but I can’t. I apologize for hurting you.

 

[HailMary]

Eastern Christianity does not make this distinction. I understand sin perfectly fine. I would rather not discuss this. Let us just respect that we disagree.

Eastern Christianity DOES make a distinction since we are part of the Universal Catholic Church.

The *catholicity *of the Catholic Church is that we are free to study Eastern Catholicism and Western Catholicism to come to know Christ and His Church and they do not oppose each other.

St. Thomas > jimmy
and he is a Doctor of the CHURCH (the CATHOLIC CHURCH, NOT JUST THE WESTERN).

He *clearly *makes the distinction here.

 

[jimmy]

Eastern Christianity DOES make a distinction since we are part of the Universal Catholic Church.

The *catholicity *of the Catholic Church is that we are free to study Eastern Catholicism and Western Catholicism to come to know Christ and His Church and they do not oppose each other.

St. Thomas > jimmy
and he is a Doctor of the CHURCH (the CATHOLIC CHURCH, NOT JUST THE WESTERN).

He *clearly *makes the distinction here.

I know what St. Thomas has said regarding mortal/venial sin but I don’t agree. Let us respectfully disagree. It is not an essential matter. We both agree that all sin is an offense against God and that sin leads us to hell unless we repent of it. That is what is essential to the matter. There is room for disagreement on some of the details within the Church.

Is that meant to be a greater than sign? St. Thomas is greater than jimmy? I don’t deny that. He was far more intelligent and far more spiritual. I just disagree with his approach to matters. I tend to choose another universal doctors approach, St. Ephrem.

 

[jam070406]

I was a little angry with many of those posts and I apologize. I was wrong. I should have reacted a little more sanely. I was a little angry that people insist on telling me that I must submitt to western constructs but I can’t. I apologize for hurting you.

Apology accepted.

 

[HailMary]

I know what St. Thomas has said regarding mortal/venial sin but I don’t agree. Let us respectfully disagree. It is not an essential matter. We both agree that all sin is an offense against God and that sin leads us to hell unless we repent of it. That is what is essential to the matter. There is room for disagreement on some of the details within the Church.

You have your free will to disagree, but you are generalizing about the Church as a whole which is producing erroneous statements.

To qualify your statement about hell, prefix the word with “mortal” and you then be speaking in terms of the Catholic Church.

 

[jimmy]

You have your free will to disagree, but you are generalizing about the Church as a whole which is producing erroneous statements.

To qualify your statement about hell, prefix the word with “mortal” and you then be speaking in terms of the Catholic Church.

My terms are Catholic too, just not those of St. Thomas.

 

[HailMary]

My terms are Catholic too, just not those of St. Thomas.

What are your guidelines for receiving communion?

St. Paul declares (1 Cor. 11:29) that anyone who would receive the Eucharist unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself.

how do you define unworthily to the faithful w/o introducing the concept of mortal and venial sin!

Without this distinction, you open the door very wide for relativism for what sins are serious and what are not.

 

[jimmy]

What are your guidelines for receiving communion?

St. Paul declares (1 Cor. 11:29) that anyone who would receive the Eucharist unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself.

how do you define unworthily to the faithful w/o introducing the concept of mortal and venial sin!

Without this distinction, you open the door very wide for relativism for what sins are serious and what are not.

That is one reason why I don’t like St. Thomas’ definition, because I think his distinction opens the door for relativism. “Well, this sin isn’t mortal so it is ok. It won’t lead to hell.” or “I don’t need to confess that because it is only venial.” You must remember that the Church has not always made this distinction. You couldn’t say that since St. Ephrem or any of the other Church Fathers who didn’t teach this distinction left the door open for relativism.

 

[jam070406]

That is one reason why I don’t like St. Thomas’ definition, because I think his distinction opens the door for relativism. “Well, this sin isn’t mortal so it is ok. It won’t lead to hell.” or “I don’t need to confess that because it is only venial.” You must remember that the Church has not always made this distinction. You couldn’t say that since St. Ephrem or any of the other Church Fathers who didn’t teach this distinction left the door open for relativism.

But the bible does say there are sins that cause death and those that don’t.

 

[HailMary]

That is one reason why I don’t like St. Thomas’ definition, because I think his distinction opens the door for relativism. “Well, this sin isn’t mortal so it is ok. It won’t lead to hell.” or “I don’t need to confess that because it is only venial.” You must remember that the Church has not always made this distinction. You couldn’t say that since St. Ephrem or any of the other Church Fathers who didn’t teach this distinction left the door open for relativism.

how do you define unworthily to the faithful w/o introducing the concept of mortal and venial sin!

…

 

[yeshua]

Would you people PLEASE stop it with all these mind and word games?! As i asked before, please state clearly, i say again, CLEARLY what distinguishes Eastern Catholics from Roman ones
other than liturgy.

Thanks.

**The same issues that separate Orthodoxy from Catholicism exist within the Catholic Communion. **

The sooner that people acknoweledge that fact and stop playing around with ideal fantasies about what should be reality or what is reality, then we can actually address these issues. However, please bear in mind that these are not simply issues of apologetics, these are people’s theological beliefs, all the way down to the most remote Lebanese village. Stop thinking that we are simply Eastern and Orientals infected with “the polemics of the Orthodox,” for some of us (and a good majority of EC and OC from the homelands of these churches), this was our raising and tradition, tradition that has been taught and preached long before these issues if “what is a Catholic” came to the table.

Pece and God Bless.

 

[jimmy]

But the bible does say there are sins that cause death and those that don’t.

Another reason why I don’t like the distinction is because it is very fuzzy. Sometimes you can’t simply call something mortal even though it is grave matter. You must also take into account free will and knowledge. Even if it is you who committed the sin
you can’t always even be sure that it is mortal.

Yes, I realize that 1John mentions a sin unto death but it seems to me that the only sin that is absolutely unto death is the sin against the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin.

Making absolute distinctions is not always accurate.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

You have to remember that we Easterners do not like legalities - we prefer Mysteries

Up until its time to start fighting about jurisdiction…

the “Legalist west” versus the “East of Sacred Mytery” is bit over-played and over-simplified.

Looking at the course taken by the first 7 Ecumenical councils, precision certainly does seem a concearn that loomed large in the East.

 

[HailMary]

Another reason why I don’t like the distinction is because it is very fuzzy. Sometimes you can’t simply call something mortal even though it is grave matter. You must also take into account free will and knowledge. Even if it is you who committed the sin
you can’t always even be sure that it is mortal.

Yes, I realize that 1John mentions a sin unto death but it seems to me that the only sin that is absolutely unto death is the sin against the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin.

Making absolute distinctions is not always accurate.

**1854 **Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

**The same issues that separate Orthodoxy from Catholicism exist within the Catholic Communion. **

…***Stop thinking that we are simply Eastern and Orientals infected with “the polemics of the Orthodox,” ***for some of us (and a good majority of EC and OC from the homelands of these churches), this was our raising and tradition, tradition that has been taught and preached long before these issues if “what is a Catholic” came to the table.

More than a few Maronites with whom I have interacted have not shared your vision of Eastern ideal. Call them latinized, call them disinterested in theological speculation or discourse, call them simply prayerful people if you like…

And that is all well and good.

But again, the insistence of some that their full on embrace of certain of modern EO schools as being the voice or view of the east comes off as contentious or contradistinctive as the “Latinized” folks being decried.

 

[jimmy]

**1854 **Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

HailMary, you know that I don’t find the CCC to represent my Maronite faith. It is a part of the tradition of the Church, in its western form.

Is there something wrong with me saying ‘It seems to me’? I could add ‘and the Holy Spirit’ but I don’t think that would further our discussions.

 

[jimmy]

More than a few Maronites with whom I have interacted have not shared your vision of Eastern ideal. Call them latinized, call them disinterested in theological speculation or discourse, call them simply prayerful people if you like…

And that is all well and good.

But again, the insistence of some that their full on embrace of certain of modern EO schools as being the voice or view of the east comes off as contentious or contradistinctive as the “Latinized” folks being decried.

yeshua specifically made the point that they do not simply accept EO views lock and stock because that is not their source. They have recieved their traditions from their parents in their village in the homeland.

 

[jam070406]

More than a few Maronites with whom I have interacted have not shared your vision of Eastern ideal. Call them latinized, call them disinterested in theological speculation or discourse, call them simply prayerful people if you like…

And that is all well and good.

But again, the insistence of some that their full on embrace of certain of modern EO schools as being the voice or view of the east comes off as contentious or contradistinctive as the “Latinized” folks being decried.

I concur. I’ve spoken to a Melkite priest that does not share Yeshua’s opinion.

 

[jimmy]

how do you define unworthily to the faithful w/o introducing the concept of mortal and venial sin!

Why couldn’t we simply follow the early Christian view?

yeshua, what was the tradition of the Maronites for confession of sins and etc before communion?

 

[HailMary]

how do you define unworthily to the faithful w/o introducing the concept of mortal and venial sin!

Why couldn’t we simply follow the early Christian view?

yeshua, what was the tradition of the Maronites for confession of sins and etc before communion?

You have yet to answer the question.