Eastern vs. Western Couldn't you just switch?

[porthos11]

I was trying to understand what you meant when it was said a “calling” will not come in contravention of the Law established by the Church. You were saying that a married man would not receive a calling because Church law does not allow it. Does the married man actually not receive the calling or is not allowed to act on it?

God does not do anything that will contravene the laws established by his Church.

I brought the more seedy examples as a way to illustrate that a man who is not in communion with Church law, could still receive a calling…

I think you are opening a can of worms by saying that ordained priests could not have a vocation to begin with or that sacramentally married couples don’t have a vocation to begin with. That calls in to question the validity of the sacrament to begin with.

A vocation or lack thereof does not affect the validity of one’s ordination or marriage. A pedophile priest is indeed validly ordained even if it was against God’s will. A married man illicitly ordained is still a priest even though he doesn’t have a vocation to it. A careless couple who did not discern marriage properly but still properly exchange their vows with the full intention of faithfulness, fecundity and permanence indeed marry validly. They may end up miserable down the road, but they would be sacramentally married.

God, by virtue of the promise he made to St. Peter and the Apostles has promised to honour the laws his Church lays down and therefore would not contravene it. It also prevents people like married men from claiming “I have a vocation” and therefore do something stupid, like going Orthodox or Anglican or join faithless organizations like Call to Action.

 

[porthos11]

Hi all. Having just read this thread, I’m unsure where best to begin; but I guess I’ll begin with:

Does it follow that, back in those times and circumstances when married men weren’t permitted to become deacons, no married men had a call to the diaconate?

I would hold that as correct.

 

[Aramis]

Is it a God-given (revelation) that married men cannot be priest in the Latin rite or is that tradition? In all sincerity, I ask because priest in the Latin rite were allowed to be married at one time…

It’s a long standing discipline, but marriage does not render one invalid matter for ordination to the deaconate nor presbyterate.

It’s Capital T tradition that married men are not routinely ordained priests nor deacons, but HH Paul VI explicitly changed that for the deaconate, permitting married men of the Roman Rite to be admitted to the deaconate. He also granted an exception to the tradition for Married ministers of other churches who are invalidly ordained due to being non-catholic to be ordained to the Catholic priesthood. Popes John XXIII, JP II and Benedict XVI have continued to permit those exceptions. (HH JP I wasn’t in office long enough to matter.)

 

[Peter_J]

It’s a long standing discipline, but marriage does not render one invalid matter for ordination to the deaconate nor presbyterate.

It’s Capital T tradition that married men are not routinely ordained priests nor deacons, but HH Paul VI explicitly changed that for the deaconate, permitting married men of the Roman Rite to be admitted to the deaconate. He also granted an exception to the tradition for Married ministers of other churches who are invalidly ordained due to being non-catholic to be ordained to the Catholic priesthood. Popes John XXIII, JP II and Benedict XVI have continued to permit those exceptions. (HH JP I wasn’t in office long enough to matter.)

John XXIII came before Paul VI.

 

[theistgal]

Um - isn’t it even remotely possible that God might call a married couple to one of the Eastern Rite churches which ordains married priests, and then once they’ve established themselves there, call the husband to the priesthood?

 

[Peter_J]

Um - isn’t it even remotely possible that God might call a married couple to one of the Eastern Rite churches which ordains married priests, and then once they’ve established themselves there, call the husband to the priesthood?

Shhhhh…

 

[porthos11]

Um - isn’t it even remotely possible that God might call a married couple to one of the Eastern Rite churches which ordains married priests, and then once they’ve established themselves there, call the husband to the priesthood?

Absolutely. But if that happens, then the couple will change rites in the proper way, that is to first participate in the Eastern church for a required period of time, then canonically transfer after having proven that that church’s spirituality is indeed for them, then most likely they will need to live for a significant period in active service and life in the new Church. And probably only after many years will the husband be able to discern a call to the priesthood.

 

[Hasire]

I asked my philosophy professor about this some weeks ago. He is a Roman Catholic priest. He told me the reason why changing rites is a very difficult and hard process (and why very few Roman Catholics know about this). He told me the Latin Bishops’s fear that the people would transfer en masse to the Eastern Churches/Rites (That implies a few things…). Basically… to keep the Latin Church as a powerhouse.

 

[Nils]

Discussions about whether it is right or not aside: Does this mean that it is possible for married Latin Catholics who become Eastern Catholics to apply to the seminary? Did you ever hear about such case? Anyone who is canonist here?

 

[malphono]

I asked my philosophy professor about this some weeks ago. He is a Roman Catholic priest. He told me the reason why changing rites is a very difficult and hard process (and why very few Roman Catholics know about this). He told me the Latin Bishops’s fear that the people would transfer en masse to the Eastern Churches/Rites (That implies a few things…). Basically… to keep the Latin Church as a powerhouse.

That would only be partially true, and these days, I’d say not even so in majority. The real reason why there is a process for transferring Churches is basically to protect the East and Orient from just such an unwanted influx. Someone cannot just walk into an Orthodox church and say “I’m here, I want to join” without having to go through a catechetical period. No Orthodox priest that I’ve ever known or heard of would go along. This is quite the same same type of thing.

 

[theistgal]

I asked my philosophy professor about this some weeks ago. He is a Roman Catholic priest. He told me the reason why changing rites is a very difficult and hard process (and why very few Roman Catholics know about this). He told me the Latin Bishops’s fear that the people would transfer en masse to the Eastern Churches/Rites (That implies a few things…). Basically… to keep the Latin Church as a powerhouse.

Your philosophy professor sounds a bit paranoid. It’s not at all a “difficult and hard process” to change rites.

 

[malphono]

Discussions about whether it is right or not aside: Does this mean that it is possible for married Latin Catholics who become Eastern Catholics to apply to the seminary? Did you ever hear about such case? Anyone who is canonist here?

I’m not a lawyer (perish the thought, but I do know a few on a first-name basis), but I can say this:

Theoretically it’s possible (absent any specific restriction that may have been incorporated in the terms of transfer), but it would take time. Let’s say someone who is 19 and married decides he wants to transfer Churches. OK, fine. Now, let’s assume that the bishops agree to the transfer without restriction, and then the person says he’s looking to be ordained a priest. Well, that’s nice but he’s going to have to wait, probably about 20 years. The basic idea is that a person would have to be part of the Church for some years before even being considered to be a candidate for ordination.

 

[Hasire]

Your philosophy professor sounds a bit paranoid. It’s not at all a “difficult and hard process” to change rites.

Well, he’s a philosopher after all lol
But does have its logic, he’s a canonist. In fact he has the Canon Law’s cathedra in my university.

 

[Tomdstone]

If you’re a married man and you’re a canonically a member of the Latin church, you can be assured you do NOT have a calling to the priesthood at that particular time.

No. I don’t believe that this is true. I know of a case where a married Latin Catholic man who converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church and studied in the Eastern Orthodox seminary and then was ordained as an Eastern Orthodox priest. He then converted to Eastern Catholicism and was accepted as an Eastern Catholic priest. So it is not true that he did not have a calling to the priesthood.

 

[Peter_J]

You open an interesting can of worms …

 

[porthos11]

No. I don’t believe that this is true. I know of a case where a married Latin Catholic man who converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church and studied in the Eastern Orthodox seminary and then was ordained as an Eastern Orthodox priest. He then converted to Eastern Catholicism and was accepted as an Eastern Catholic priest. So it is not true that he did not have a calling to the priesthood.

I’d take this as proof that this man did not have a calling. A true calling will not cause a person to leave the Catholic Church in the first place. He may have received a calling later after his canonical status changed, but I seriously doubt it.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

What if the man is a convert/revert to the Catholic Church and didn’t fully discern his vocation to marriage?

Or converted to the Catholic Church, Latin Rite, having no idea that any other Rite existed - not something usually taught or even mentioned in RCIA.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

God does not do anything that will contravene the laws established by his Church.

I could be mistaken, but I think the OP’s point was that it doesNot contravene the laws of His Church.

And it is permissible for a married man to become a priest in the Catholic Church, definitely in the Eastern Rites/Churches, but also, and more rarely, in the Latin Rite.

If all that’s needed is a simple official document authorizing a one-time permanent Rite change that’s standing in the way of a man called to the priesthood, it shouldn’t be that big of a deal as the entire Church is His Church, not just one part. God shouldn’t be limited to only one part of His Church’s current discipline especially if it doesn’t conflict with the other part.

It will be great for the entire Church when the Latin Rite changes the discipline in the matter of married priests back to how it was in early Church.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I’d take this as proof that this man did not have a calling. A true calling will not cause a person to leave the Catholic Church in the first place. He may have received a calling later after his canonical status changed, but I seriously doubt it.

Apparently the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, disagreed with your opinion re: his calling to the priesthood.

 

[porthos11]

Apparently the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, disagreed with your opinion re: his calling to the priesthood.

Yes, obviously.