Easterners, what do YOU believe about the Papacy?

[Peter_J]

Did I embarrass you Peter?

What am I not getting here?

If an Orthodox -]because/-] becomes an Eastern Catholic, he is becoming a part of the “One, Holy Catholic Church”.

Otherwise he might as well stay in “Holy Orthodoxy”.

Well as I said before, an Orthodox can become Eastern Catholic anytime he/she wants to – but not very many of them do.

I think what’s being discussed here is some kind of “Byzantine Protocol” that would entail all the Orthodox coming into communion with Rome.

 

[Peter_J]

As that may infer that Pastor Aeternus was promulgated simply to spite the Orthodox, you have a point.

That said, we as Catholics should all seek to understand exactly why Pastor Aeternus was written.

Here’s one analysis, for consideration:

Pastor Aeternus in Perspective: Vincent Gasser and John Henry Newman on Papal Infallibility

I haven’t read that, but Cardinal Newman certainly did have some interesting things to say about the dogmatization of Papal Infallibility.

 

[Bballer32]

1. I agrre with the Church Fathers, yes.

Good good. Have you ever heard of St. Cyprian of Carthage?

Well he has a very good quote that i would like to share with you about the Papacy. Many Orthodox love Cyprian’s teachings so, you might as well agree with them all.

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was , but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" ~St. Cyprian of Carthage

 

[Bballer32]

1. I may be wrong, but tell me, which autonomous/autocephalous churches are daughters of Rome?

For example:

-Jerusalem > Rome, Antioch, Alexandria

-Antioch > Seleucia-Ctisphon, Cyprus(?)

-Constantinople > Bulgaria, Rusia, Greece

-Non-Chalcedonian Alexandria > Ethiopia

In your previous post you were talking about how the Roman Catholic Church denied the existence daughter Churches such as,like you said, the Spanish Church, Gallican Church, and the Anglo-Saxon Church.

Gallican Church- They expressed a view that the Pope could do nothing without the permission of the King of France. This took away all sorts of religious privileges that other Catholics had in Europe. So, the reason this couldn’t continue is because the Gallican Church would then mix within the Gov’t even more and start making false doctrine, etc. Now, my point on this is that the Gallican Church was not wiped out by the Catholic Church, it was actually wiped out by the French Revolution.

Spanish Church- I don’t know where you were going with this one because the Spanish Catholic Church is part of the Roman Catholic Church under the leadership of the Pope and Conference of Spanish Bishops. They have even hosted the Councils of Toledo. There have never been any restrictions upon them or anything of the sort. They are and always have been part of the RCC.

Anglo-Saxon Church- Again i don’t know where you were going with this one. The Anglo-Saxon Church has been loyal to the See of Rome since it’s conversion in the 7th century. St. Augustine was actually helping with the development of the church. Many great Catholic saints have come out of this area such as St. Cuthbert, St. Cedd, St. Chad, and St. Wilfrid and they preached the Gospel and told of the See of Rome and the keys of the papacy, etc.

Now, wouldn’t you think that a daughter needs to be loyal to her Father and Mother??? If that’s the case then your definition of daughter church is wrong. A daughter will always remain faithful to her mom and dad forever. Any daughter church that isn’t is considered a runaway from the household or someone who thinks that they do not need guidance from an adult authority.

 

[Wisely]

Good good. Have you ever heard of St. Cyprian of Carthage?

Well he has a very good quote that i would like to share with you about the Papacy. Many Orthodox love Cyprian’s teachings so, you might as well agree with them all.

OMG I love this quote.
And yes, I agree with it, that’s why I’m in communion with my Bishop who sits in the Chair of Peter

 

[Wisely]

In your previous post you were talking about how the Roman Catholic Church denied the existence daughter Churches such as,like you said, the Spanish Church, Gallican Church, and the Anglo-Saxon Church.

Gallican Church- They expressed a view that the Pope could do nothing without the permission of the King of France. This took away all sorts of religious privileges that other Catholics had in Europe. So, the reason this couldn’t continue is because the Gallican Church would then mix within the Gov’t even more and start making false doctrine, etc. Now, my point on this is that the Gallican Church was not wiped out by the Catholic Church, it was actually wiped out by the French Revolution.

Spanish Church- I don’t know where you were going with this one because the Spanish Catholic Church is part of the Roman Catholic Church under the leadership of the Pope and Conference of Spanish Bishops. They have even hosted the Councils of Toledo. There have never been any restrictions upon them or anything of the sort. They are and always have been part of the RCC.

Anglo-Saxon Church- Again i don’t know where you were going with this one. The Anglo-Saxon Church has been loyal to the See of Rome since it’s conversion in the 7th century. St. Augustine was actually helping with the development of the church. Many great Catholic saints have come out of this area such as St. Cuthbert, St. Cedd, St. Chad, and St. Wilfrid and they preached the Gospel and told of the See of Rome and the keys of the papacy, etc.

Now, wouldn’t you think that a daughter needs to be loyal to her Father and Mother??? If that’s the case then your definition of daughter church is wrong. A daughter will always remain faithful to her mom and dad forever. Any daughter church that isn’t is considered a runaway from the household or someone who thinks that they do not need guidance from an adult authority.

Look, this is easy: the [Roman] Catholic Church is a communion of 22 sui juris churches all of them in commuion with the Pope of Rome. In those 22, where do you see those churches I mentioned?

And something else, you can’t refer to something (i.e SpanishChurch) as part of the Church because you can’t divide the Body Of Christ in parts. The same way you don’t refer to Christ as part of God.

 

[Hesychios]

Good good. Have you ever heard of St. Cyprian of Carthage?

Well he has a very good quote that i would like to share with you about the Papacy. Many Orthodox love Cyprian’s teachings so, you might as well agree with them all.

Are you not aware that Saint Cyprian was speaking of his own See as the See of Peter?

 

[Bballer32]

Are you not aware that Saint Cyprian was speaking of his own See as the See of Peter?

Are you aware that he wouldn’t be a saint of the Catholic Church if he was?

 

[Bballer32]

Look, this is easy: the [Roman] Catholic Church is a communion of 22 sui juris churches all of them in commuion with the Pope of Rome. In those 22, where do you see those churches I mentioned?

And something else, you can’t refer to something (i.e SpanishChurch) as part of the Church because you can’t divide the Body Of Christ in parts. The same way you don’t refer to Christ as part of God.

Look up “Roman Catholicism in Spain” on wikipedia. Then go to the link that says religion in spain. There never was ever a church called the Spanish Church. It has always been a part of the RCC.

Now, about the 22 rites. The Churches you mentioned were NEVER individual Churches. The closest one would have to be the Gallican Church. That was just the name of the Roman Catholic Church in France at the time from 1682-1790. Like i stated before, they didn’t call themselves that anymore after the French Revolution.

 

[Hesychios]

Are you aware that he wouldn’t be a saint of the Catholic Church if he was?

The cause of sainthood for saint Cyprian had really nothing to do with the church at Rome. He was a saint long before Rome introduced the policy where it controls the canonization of saints in the west (12th century or 13th century, I think). The particular churches across orthodox Christianity put him on their calendars.

Saint Cyprian believed all bishops were Peter, and it was in this context that he stated what he did because of a local schism in his synod of north Africa. He wanted them to return to communion with himself. When Roman Catholic apologists make the claim that this quote supports the Petrine ministry of Rome to the exclusion of any other orthodox bishop, they are at the very least misinformed.

Usually, people who do not know much of anything about Saint Cyprian take this ‘out-of-context’ snippet directly from a quote mine and pretend that they are clever.

 

[Bballer32]

Are you not aware that Saint Cyprian was speaking of his own See as the See of Peter?

To you and Wisely

Here

If you have any questions or comments, please paste the line and explain your situation. St. Cyprian does a great job of describing the Church Unity with Peter and Christ.

 

[Cavaradossi]

To you and Wisely

Here

If you have any questions or comments, please paste the line and explain your situation. St. Cyprian does a great job of describing the Church Unity with Peter and Christ.

Are you familiar with what happened between Cyprian and Stephen?

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Hesychios
Are you not aware that Saint Cyprian was speaking of his own See as the See of Peter?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprian:

Honored in Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church

See also the Catholic Encyclopedia article on him.

 

[Peter_J]

Now, about the 22 rites.

What 22 rites would that be?

 

[Bballer32]

What 22 rites would that be?

Latin Catholic church
Coptic Catholic church
Ethiopian Catholic church
Maronite church
Syriac (Syrian) Catholic church
Syro-Malankara Catholic church
Armenian Catholic church
Chaldean Catholic church
Syro-Malabar church
Albanian Greek Catholic church
Belarusian Greek Catholic church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic church
Byzantine church of the Eparchy of Krizevci
Greek Byzantine Catholic church
Hungarian Greek Catholic church
Italo-Albanian Catholic church
Macedonian Greek Catholic church
Melkite Greek Catholic church
Romanian church United with Rome
Russian Catholic church
Ruthenian Catholic church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic church

The majority of these churches were once Orthodox churches that are now in Union with Rome

 

[Bballer32]

Are you familiar with what happened between Cyprian and Stephen?

No i’m not. I would like to know though?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Peter J;9432918:

What 22 rites would that be?

Latin Catholic church
Coptic Catholic church
Ethiopian Catholic church
Maronite church
Syriac (Syrian) Catholic church
Syro-Malankara Catholic church
Armenian Catholic church
Chaldean Catholic church
Syro-Malabar church
Albanian Greek Catholic church
Belarusian Greek Catholic church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic church
Byzantine church of the Eparchy of Krizevci
Greek Byzantine Catholic church
Hungarian Greek Catholic church
Italo-Albanian Catholic church
Macedonian Greek Catholic church
Melkite Greek Catholic church
Romanian church United with Rome
Russian Catholic church
Ruthenian Catholic church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic church

The majority of these churches were once Orthodox churches that are now in Union with Rome

Those are Churches, not rites.

 

[Peter_J]

Latin Catholic church
Coptic Catholic church
Ethiopian Catholic church
Maronite church
Syriac (Syrian) Catholic church
Syro-Malankara Catholic church
Armenian Catholic church
Chaldean Catholic church
Syro-Malabar church
Albanian Greek Catholic church
Belarusian Greek Catholic church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic church
Byzantine church of the Eparchy of Krizevci
Greek Byzantine Catholic church
Hungarian Greek Catholic church
Italo-Albanian Catholic church
Macedonian Greek Catholic church
Melkite Greek Catholic church
Romanian church United with Rome
Russian Catholic church
Ruthenian Catholic church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic church

The majority of these churches were once Orthodox churches that are now in Union with Rome

That doesn’t answer my question:

What 22 rites would that be?

 

[Cavaradossi]

No i’m not. I would like to know though?

Cyprian and his synod in North Africa ruled that those baptized by heretics ought to be rebaptized. Stephen, bishop of Rome, decided that they should not be rebaptized, and he attempted to force this custom upon the churches in Africa. Cyprian and the African bishops refused to give into Stephen’s demands. Joining Cyprian in his resistance to Stephen’s notion that heretics ought not be rebaptized was Firmilian of Cappadocia, who wrote an epistle to Cyprian in support of the rebaptism of heretics, decrying Stephen’s belief as not being passed down from the Apostles. St. Basil the great would later call Cyprian and Firmilian the ‘ancient authorities’ in his epistle 188, where he himself endorsed the rebaptism of heretics

You may find here an epistle of Cyprian written against an epistle of Stephen on the baptism of heretics: newadvent.org/fathers/050673.htm
And here you may find Firmilian’s epistle to Cyprian, written against Stephen as well: newadvent.org/fathers/050674.htm
Here you may find the signatories of the Seventh Council of Carthage, who all opposed Stephen’s attempt to force them to cease rebaptizing heretics: newadvent.org/fathers/0508.htm
And here you may find Basil’s epistle 188, known as his ‘first canonical epistle’, where he calls Cyprian and Firmilian the ‘ancient authorities’: newadvent.org/fathers/3202188.htm
Here, you may find the canons of the Council of Trullo, where 215 Eastern Bishops approved of Basil’s canonical epistles in Canon II: newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm

 

[Hesychios]

There never was ever a church called the Spanish Church. It has always been a part of the RCC.

Mozarabic Church.

This was the church of St Isadore of Seville. It was the church of the early Christians of Spain, directly evangelized in Apostolic times, not from Rome but directly at the same time as the North African church and the churches in Milan, Rome, Ravenna and Sicily. This was the church of the Gothic kingdom, the church oppressed and martyred under the Muslims for seven centuries and finally suppressed after the Reconquista. It had it’s own structure and synod, it called it’s own councils.

A heavily Latinized version of the rite exists today, as a museum piece in a few chapels in central Spain, but the church itself has been subjugated and absorbed and is no longer independent. Even so, it does not have Rome as it’s Mother church, the native church of Spain and Portugal has it’s own Apostolic Age origins.

Chant [2] example.