Eastside Catholic president resigns amid uproar over firing

[Tigg]

But of course, if you’d rather we just fade away and the mission of the Catholic Church come to a rather quiet and slow death lets keep picking fights we can’t win. Let’s keep driving people away by giving everyone else the impression we’re less concerned about adoring God and more about picking on other minorities within society.

Hyperbole does not advance the conversation and because the Church cannot be separated from Christ she is indefectible. Do you dare to believe that when He established the vehicle He would provide as our means of redemption that somehow He would then permit that vehicle to die a quiet and slow death giving victory to His enemies? That is nonsensical and in my opinion, also anti-Catholic and the Church will win the fight without corruption of doctrine or compromise. Otherwise she would not be worthy to be the Bride of Christ. Of course the truth cannot negate free will and those who love deceit will reject the message.

 

[Viewer]

Hyperbole does not advance the conversation and because the Church cannot be separated from Christ she is indefectible. Do you dare to believe that when He established the vehicle He would provide as our means of redemption that somehow He would then permit that vehicle to die a quiet and slow death giving victory to His enemies?

That’s exactly what happened in Japan, all the Catholics converted in the time of the Shogunate were slaughtered, and the faith has never returned in any great number.

That is nonsensical and in my opinion, also anti-Catholic and the Church will win the fight without corruption of doctrine or compromise. Otherwise she would not be worthy to be the Bride of Christ. Of course the truth cannot negate free will and those who love deceit will reject the message.

Uh huh, lets keep telling ourselves that as the Church attendance continues to fall. Very comforting, not to mention delusional.

God helps those who help themselves, so lets stop driving towards destruction.

 

[LisaA]

That’s exactly what happened in Japan, all the Catholics converted in the time of the Shogunate were slaughtered, and the faith has never returned in any great number.

Uh huh, lets keep telling ourselves that as the Church attendance continues to fall. Very comforting, not to mention delusional.

God helps those who help themselves, so lets stop driving towards destruction.

But is opposing our faith, its traditions and its most sacred teaching not destruction too?

There has always been the phrase “the faithful Remnant” and maybe we are seeing it in action. That being said, the tide is turning with respect to vocations and the new emphasis on evangilization (and re-evangilization) along with Pope Francis’ positive image.

I wouldn’t write off the Church yet!
Lisa

 

[JimG]

I think that is an important question. If the Catholic identity of a school can not be protected, why should Catholic schools exist?

The Tabor ruling does offer a possible way to preserve the integrity of Catholic teaching, while remaining within anti-discrimination laws. However, it will require some large changes in how the school operates. IANAL, but my understanding is that the ministerial exemption would require that the employee be Catholic, have completed a formal course of instruction to qualify as lay clergy, and then to actually work as lay clergy. I think the latter part would require curricula be modified so that a teacher explicitly link the Catholic faith to what is being taught in class, whether English composition or auto mechanics. This approach seems dicey, and it hasn’t been tested in the courts yet. But perhaps it can work.

It seems to me that rather than recasting Catholic school teachers as “lay ministers,” we ought rather to insist on the guarantee of freedom of religion found in the U.S. Constitution. The guarantee of religious liberty predates any discrimination laws, and is of a higher order. If religious liberty can no longer be exercised, we are in far worse trouble than we think. If religious liberty is no longer possible, Catholic institutions may no longer be possible.

The Church did not survive 2,000 years by compromising its morals. It is rather known for not changing faith or morals.

 

[catholick345]

The Church did not survive 2,000 years by compromising its morals. It is rather known for not changing faith or morals.

But it has though The Church used to be dead set against usury, and now it has its own bank!

 

[JimG]

But it has though The Church used to be dead set against usury, and now it has its own bank!

The Church is still dead set against usury. The Church didn’t change. But money did. And banking did.

 

[Coatimundi]

But it has though The Church used to be dead set against usury, and now it has its own bank!

The Church’s prohibition against usury has always been premised on the idea that exploiting others is immoral. At one time it was believed that any interest, regardless of amount, charged for borrowing money was exploitative.

This doctrine was refined as capitalism developed. In the new economy, loaning money deprived the owner of use of that money, which he might have used tor profitable endeavors. To compensate for this loss, a proportionate amount of interest was not exploitative, any more than charging rent is exploitative. Usury, then, became understood as a disproportionate interest (or rent, for that matter) which exploits the difficult circumstances fin which a borrower is enmeshed.

The prohibition against usury, the economic exploitation of others, has.not changed. However, the understanding of what constitutes exploitation has evolved.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Church did not survive 2,000 years by compromising its morals. It is rather known for not changing faith or morals.

Didn’t the Church change its position on torture? for example, I thought that Pope Innocent IV approved some types of torture to extract confessions from suspected heretics and this was how the Inquisition justified some of its actions? However, today, Catholics are taught that torture is morally wrong?

 

[JimG]

Didn’t the Church change its position on torture? for example, I thought that Pope Innocent IV approved some types of torture to extract confessions from suspected heretics and this was how the Inquisition justified some of its actions? However, today, Catholics are taught that torture is morally wrong?

I don’t know that torture was ever a subject for moral pronouncements, but I haven’t studied the matter. In any case, if one expects that the Church will change it’s teaching on same sex ‘marriage,’ it’s going to be a very long wait. It might happen at the same time the Church changes its position on abortion, that is, never.

 

[Thrice89]

The homosexual activists sue over cakes and photography services. They are a force of evil who will not rest until they have shoved their disordered sexuality down our throats. They do not want to “live in peace” as they claim but want to redefine marriage to cover a sex practice and raise their totally non-procreative and often unhealthy relationship to the level of the life giving power of a man and woman in marriage. That they bully instead of persuade shows the lack of a cogent and supportable argument. For them it’s “might makes right.” We are in for a bumpy ride.

Lisa

On the flip side, the so-called “homosexual activists” see Catholics as outdated activists who are trying to shove Church morality down their throats and won’t rest until the USA becomes like Russia (referencing another thread, how Catholics can support Putin is beyond me. ) That Catholics bully instead of persuade, and cry persecution and victimization every time something goes against them, shows the lack of a cogent and supportable argument. For Catholics, “might makes right.”

The point I’m trying to make is that when we label (all gays are “homosexual activists”; also applicable to the ‘liberal vs. conservative’ debate), make arguments from emotion (the whole post above) and/or make broad and false statements/generalizations/stereotypes (all homosexual relationships are unhealthy [in terms of not wanting to be monogamous, along those lines of common Catholic stereotypes], they don’t want to live in peace, etc.), it shows a distinct and fundamental lack of Christian charity. We’re never going to be able to solve problems if we talk past the other side or when we demean those we disagree with. We need to objectively analyze and compassionately debate without compromising our values, but what I’ve seen Catholics do time and time again is reminiscent of the post above. If we’re going to act like that, we can’t be surprised when our positions are marginalized and ignored and people either leave the Church, or don’t want to join.

At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, we’re all in this together.

 

[retire_early]

Thrice 89: I think you did not read Lisa’s post carefully. She was talking about homosexual activists.

Your kum-bah-yah drumbeat is not cogent.

 

[LisaA]

Thrice 89: I think you did not read Lisa’s post carefully. She was talking about homosexual activists.

Your kum-bah-yah drumbeat is not cogent.

You are right. Thank you

 

[LisaA]

On the flip side, the so-called “homosexual activists” see Catholics as outdated activists who are trying to shove Church morality down their throats and won’t rest until the USA becomes like Russia (referencing another thread, how Catholics can support Putin is beyond me. ) That Catholics bully instead of persuade, and cry persecution and victimization every time something goes against them, shows the lack of a cogent and supportable argument. For Catholics, “might makes right.”

The point I’m trying to make is that when we label (all gays are “homosexual activists”; also applicable to the ‘liberal vs. conservative’ debate), make arguments from emotion (the whole post above) and/or make broad and false statements/generalizations/stereotypes (all homosexual relationships are unhealthy [in terms of not wanting to be monogamous, along those lines of common Catholic stereotypes], they don’t want to live in peace, etc.), it shows a distinct and fundamental lack of Christian charity. We’re never going to be able to solve problems if we talk past the other side or when we demean those we disagree with. We need to objectively analyze and compassionately debate without compromising our values, but what I’ve seen Catholics do time and time again is reminiscent of the post above. If we’re going to act like that, we can’t be surprised when our positions are marginalized and ignored and people either leave the Church, or don’t want to join.

At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, we’re all in this together.

Interesting use of all three deadly sins of ineffective argumentation, Red Herrings, strawmen and ad hominems

I’m not sure what you mean by Catholic activists trying to shove morality down others’ throats (not a good image when discussing sexual sins…ugh). I wasn’t aware of any state requirement that we attend Mass weekly and the Russian comment seems particularly irrelevant given it was intended to be a secular state that you juxtapose against an erroneous image of a Theocracy in America. Further I didn’t call all gays homosexualist activists, but it is precisely this minority of those with SSA who gin up false controversies about not getting wedding cakes (boiled up to a bloody froth on another thread) or the photographer they want or the ability in this case to violate a contract and still remain employed.

I find it fascinating the way in which a tiny minority who distinguish themselves by a sexual practice have seized the bully pulpit and are demanding others acknowledge if not celebrate their sex lives. I believe one’s private life is best left private and if you knowingly violate the terms of a contract, you should suffer the consequences. But gays are the Left’s new poster child and so one will march in the street to reinstate a teacher who wants to live a disordered lifestyle and still maintain employment at a Catholic school while another teacher who didn’t want Planned Parenthood in to talk to his MATH students is terminated.

The world is upside down.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Interesting use of all three deadly sins of ineffective argumentation, Red Herrings, strawmen and ad hominems

I’m not sure what you mean by Catholic activists trying to shove morality down others’ throats (not a good image when discussig sexual sins…ugh). I wasn’t aware of any state requirement that we attend Mass weekly and the Russian comment seems particularly irrelevant given it was intended to be a secular state that you juxtapose against an erroneous image of a Theocracy in America. Further I didn’t call all gays homosexualist activists, but it is precisely this minority of those with SSA who gin up false controversies about not getting wedding cakes (boiled up to a bloody froth on another thread) or the photographer they want or the ability in this case to violate a contract and still remain employed.

I find it fascinating the way in which a tiny minority who distinguish themselves by a sexual practice have seized the bully pulpit and are demanding others acknowledge if not celebrate their sex lives. I believe one’s private life is best left private and if you knowingly violate the terms of a contract, you should suffer the consequences. But gays are the Left’s new poster child and so one will march in the street to reinstate a teacher who wants to live an openly disordered lifestyle and still maintain employment at a Catholic school while another teacher who didn’t want Planned Parenthood in to talk to his MATH students is terminated.

The world is upside down.

Lisa

 

[Tomdstone]

… how Catholics can support Putin is beyond me. ) .

I’ll tell you why a lot of decent people support President Putin:

1. He has worked to support and rebuild the Holy Russian Orthodox Church.
2. He has protected Russian children from being adopted by same sex parents.
3. He has outlawed pro-homosexual propaganda which targets children.
4. He has agreed with the decision to jail the notorious P-Riot gang which was guilty of spewing filthy, gutter obscene lyrics in a holy Orthodox church.

 

[SMGS127]

I’ll tell you why a lot of decent people support President Putin:

1. He has worked to support and rebuild the Holy Russian Orthodox Church.
2. He has protected Russian children from being adopted by same sex parents.
3. He has outlawed pro-homosexual propaganda which targets children.
4. He has agreed with the decision to jail the notorious P-Riot gang which was guilty of spewing filthy, gutter obscene lyrics in a holy Orthodox church.

1. He’s looked the other way as innocent gays have been beaten to death in the streets of Russia, with the blessing of Orthodox “priests.”
2. He’s created a totalitarian country where anyone who opposes him finds themselves suddenly at high risk.
3. He’s created a near-ban on any Catholic evangelization work whatsoever in the country, endangering countless souls.

Need I go on myself?

 

[LisaA]

1. He’s looked the other way as innocent gays have been beaten to death in the streets of Russia, with the blessing of Orthodox “priests.”
2. He’s created a totalitarian country where anyone who opposes him finds themselves suddenly at high risk.
3. He’s created a near-ban on any Catholic evangelization work whatsoever in the country, endangering countless souls.

Need I go on myself?

Hmmm same could be said for Obama…replace beaten to death with drones and he doesn’t even look the other way…his acts are quite totalitarianism and his regime has admittedly persecuted those who are in opposition. He is clearly at war with the Catholic Church.

No I don’t like Putin and I think he’s a dictator in many ways. But at least he recongizes himself as a fist in the face of oppositions, stands up for principles even if you disagree with them, and engenders a grudging respect among other world leaders.

Lisa

 

[Viewer]

He is clearly at war with the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry, I almost just drowned my keyboard in coffee after reading this.

Not following Church Teachings does not equal “going to war”. Until he starts bombing the Vatican he’s not at war with the Catholic Church.

 

[LisaA]

I’m sorry, I almost just drowned my keyboard in coffee after reading this.

Not following Church Teachings does not equal “going to war”. Until he starts bombing the Vatican he’s not at war with the Catholic Church.

More damage and violence is done with words than bombs Viewer. Even Cardinal Timothy Dolan has noted Obama’s targeted persecution of the Church. BTW you can get a waterproof keyboard.

Lisa

 

[Tomdstone]

1. He’s looked the other way as innocent gays have been beaten to death in the streets of Russia, with the blessing of Orthodox “priests.”
2. He’s created a totalitarian country where anyone who opposes him finds themselves suddenly at high risk.
3. He’s created a near-ban on any Catholic evangelization work whatsoever in the country, endangering countless souls.

Need I go on myself?

Obama has looked the other way as millions of innocent unborn children are slaughtered, while President Putin has worked hard to reduce abortions in Russia and has supported legislation which will accomplish that.
Obama has created a totalitarian country where spying on everyone has increased.
Putin on the other hand has offered refuge to the whistleblower Edward Snowden, an American who is in danger of either capital punishment or at least long time in prison for revealing the Obama spy program, where every American has his phone call placed in a federal data base.
Need I go on as to how much better President Putin is?