Ecclesiastes 9:5 goes against praying to the Saints in Heaven

  • Thread starter Thread starter Christine85
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Christine85

Guest
In reference to the dead it says “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.”

A Protestant has used this saying that the CC is wrong for praying to the Saints. That the dead know nothing so why pray to them…

Does anyone have an explanation of this verse and why we still pray to the Saints.
I have already read the tract on praying to Saints but it was not enough Scriptural evidence I believe.
 
It’s ok I found this - scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

This verse here says it all “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine or nakedness or SWORD?” Romans 8:35
 
See you do not need us to answer lol. Scripturecatholic.com is a wonderful website that really ties Scripture in with doctrine. Many Protestant believe the CC is not Scripture based. That website shows clearly where Catholic doctrine is rooted deeply in Sacred Scripture.

I had a fellow tell me once that praying to the Saints is useless and almost “satanic.” lol
This same gentleman also told me he talks to his dead grandmother all the time. :confused: Anything that is “Catholic” he is against but its cool to talk to your dead grandmother? lol
 
In reference to the dead it says “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.”

A Protestant has used this saying that the CC is wrong for praying to the Saints. That the dead know nothing so why pray to them…

Does anyone have an explanation of this verse and why we still pray to the Saints.
I have already read the tract on praying to Saints but it was not enough Scriptural evidence I believe.
There is no such thing as a dead Saint. Point out to your Protestant friend the Transfiguration. Moses was “dead and buried” yet Jesus was having a conversation with him. Jesus tells us that those who die in a state of grace never die! So if one dies in a state of grace they are not dead and they know all things. Read my article I wrote in 2002.

philvaz.com/apologetics/a96.htm

Peace,

David
 
I would agree with your protestant friend. The dead DO know nothing. But the Saints are not dead, for our God is not a God of the dead but of the living (Mt 22:32). Likewise I would point them to the Transfiguration…Was He speaking with the dead or the living?..

Peace
James
 
I would agree with your protestant friend. The dead DO know nothing. But the Saints are not dead, for our God is not a God of the dead but of the living (Mt 22:32). Likewise I would point them to the Transfiguration…Was He speaking with the dead or the living?..

Peace
James
👍
 

St. Thomas Aquinas: “nothing false can ever underlie the literal sense of Holy Writ.”
(Summa Theologica, I, 1, 10.)

{9:5} For the living know that they themselves will die, yet truly the dead know nothing anymore, nor do they have any recompense. For the memory of them is forgotten.

This refers to the body and to this life. When dead, the brain can no longer know anything, and any possible recompense in this life has reached an end.

{9:6} Likewise, love and hatred and envy have all perished together, nor have they any place in this age and in the work which is done under the sun.

Notice that the author says “in this age” in other words, in this life, “under the sun”. The Jews certainly believed in an after life, and although the Sadduccees denied it, most Jews believed in a resurrection. So even the Jews in ancient times understood this passage correctly to refer to this life.

{9:7} So then, go and eat your bread with rejoicing, and drink your wine with gladness. For your works are pleasing to God.
{9:8} Let your garments be white at all times, and let not oil be absent from your head.
{9:9} Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your uncertain life which have been given to you under the sun, during all the time of your vanity. For this is your portion in life and in your labor, with which you labor under the sun.
{9:10} Whatever your hand is able to do, do it earnestly. For neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge will exist in death, toward which you are hurrying.

Again, the finality of death as pertains to the limited human things of this life is presented. But there is no denial of an afterlife.
CONTE
 
So, do they think Jesus is lying when he says that we shall have **eternal **life?
 
As Fr. William Most points out, Ecclesiastes being Old Testament and referring to the state of the dead before Christ rose and took the saints to Heaven…

“We saw earlier in commenting on Sirach 17. 27-28 that the state of the dead before Christ was such that even the just could not reach the vision of God - they lived in the dim Limbo of the Fathers where there was no liturgical praise of God, not did the covenant hold sway, nor did they know what was happening to their children on earth.”

Here is Fr. Most’s comments on Sirach 14

“A major key to understanding many texts is the fact that
before the death of Christ, heaven was closed (cf.DS 780,1000)
even to those who were just and fully prepared. So what was
existence like in Sheol? There was no praise of God. Psalm 6:6
asks: “Who in Sheol can give you praise?” Sirach 17:27-28 has
the same thought. Again, Isaiah 38:18-19 says: “Death cannot
praise you. Those who go down into the pit cannot hope for
your faithfulness.” M.Dahood (Anchor Bible, Psalms 16,p.38)
comments that the writer of Psalm 6 does not suffer from an
inability to remember God in Sheol, but from not being able to
share in the grand liturgical praise of God as in the public
worship, which the people of Israel sincerely loved. (They
loved the externals so much that God complained in Is 29:13:
“This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are
far from me”). We could add that the very Hebrew words used
in Isaiah 38:18-19 for praise or thanks of God also appear in
1 Chron 16:4 and 2 Chron 5:13 and 31:2 for the liturgical
praise of God.”
 
If the saints live everlasting with the lord of all, Jesus Christ, would the saints be dead? Could it be that the “dead” referred to might be those who are not in live everlasting and in Hell. Because praying for those in Hell, I believe will not accomplish anything, but for those in Purgatory and Heaven it will accomplish something.
 
There is no such thing as a dead Saint. Point out to your Protestant friend the Transfiguration. Moses was “dead and buried” yet Jesus was having a conversation with him. Jesus tells us that those who die in a state of grace never die! So if one dies in a state of grace they are not dead and they know all things. Read my article I wrote in 2002.

philvaz.com/apologetics/a96.htm

Peace,

David
This is a great answer. IMO.👍
 
Thanks everyone!! You have really helped!! Thank God for CAF
 
There is another fact about Ecclesiastes that some forget, namely that the subject of death in the book was written from an ancient Jewish perspective and not reflective of any type of implied Christology.

As such it was reflecting the Jewish view of death at the time it was written. Divine revelation had not progressed to the point of any type of experience of consciousness for the dead, and Jewish schools of thought regarding an afterlife (Olam Ha-Ba) are considered to be of the Talmudic period, after Torah/Tanakh (the Old Testament) was written. Protestants who thus demand one sticks to Old Testament statements like that in Ecclesiastes as “the standard” for Jewish faith about death before Christ are outright uneducated or outright lying. Eschatology continued to progress in their tradition after these books were composed and eventually became a major reason for the contention between the Sadducees and the Pharisees (the Sadducees did not believe in Tradition like Catholicism and the rest of Judaism, only in what was literally written).–Acts 23:7, 8, Matthew 22:23.

And since modern Judaism comes from the Pharisee movement (the Sadducee sect came to an end with the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E.), the interpretation of Scripture that enlightened the first century Christians like the apostle Paul (Acts 23:6) was that Ecclesiastes was not the last and final word about death.

If a person believes Ecclesiastes is supposed to be the final word about death, how do they account for the Pharisees coming to believe in life after death by the time Jesus came on the scene? The Pharisees were the ones who accepted Ecclesiastes as canonical, whereas the Sadducees who believed only in the five books of Moses and who did not accept Ecclesiastes (and thus rejected this text) believed that those who died were conscious of nothing at all.
 
I get the feeling this man wants me to stop being Catholic. He said he has been evangelizing Catholic Churches bringing people to the word of God
 
In reference to the dead it says “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.”

A Protestant has used this saying that the CC is wrong for praying to the Saints. That the dead know nothing so why pray to them…

Does anyone have an explanation of this verse and why we still pray to the Saints.
I have already read the tract on praying to Saints but it was not enough Scriptural evidence I believe.
I guess he doesn’t believe in life after death.
 
I get the feeling this man wants me to stop being Catholic. He said he has been evangelizing Catholic Churches bringing people to the word of God
Hee Hee Hee…Yup…There are those who “specialize” in trying to evangelize Catholics away from the Church.
Sounds like you can have some real fun evangelizing him.

you might mention to him that you hear more from the word of God at every 45 minute mass than he is likely to here in any 90 minute protestant sermon.

Peace
James
 
There is another fact about Ecclesiastes that some forget, namely that the subject of death in the book was written from an ancient Jewish perspective and not reflective of any type of implied Christology.

As such it was reflecting the Jewish view of death at the time it was written. Divine revelation had not progressed to the point of any type of experience of consciousness for the dead, and Jewish schools of thought regarding an afterlife (Olam Ha-Ba) are considered to be of the Talmudic period, after Torah/Tanakh (the Old Testament) was written. Protestants who thus demand one sticks to Old Testament statements like that in Ecclesiastes as “the standard” for Jewish faith about death before Christ are outright uneducated or outright lying. Eschatology continued to progress in their tradition after these books were composed and eventually became a major reason for the contention between the Sadducees and the Pharisees (the Sadducees did not believe in Tradition like Catholicism and the rest of Judaism, only in what was literally written).–Acts 23:7, 8, Matthew 22:23.

And since modern Judaism comes from the Pharisee movement (the Sadducee sect came to an end with the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E.), the interpretation of Scripture that enlightened the first century Christians like the apostle Paul (Acts 23:6) was that Ecclesiastes was not the last and final word about death.

If a person believes Ecclesiastes is supposed to be the final word about death, how do they account for the Pharisees coming to believe in life after death by the time Jesus came on the scene? The Pharisees were the ones who accepted Ecclesiastes as canonical, whereas the Sadducees who believed only in the five books of Moses and who did not accept Ecclesiastes (and thus rejected this text) believed that those who died were conscious of nothing at all.
This is a good description of what the Old Testament Jews, especially during the time that Ecclesiastes was written, believed.

Basically, these Jews were thinking of Death as it would be if God did not intervene: Sheol, the Old Testament abode of the dead, was a fate where you were considered to be a “shade” of yourself…you technically still existed (witness, in the book of Samuel, that the Prophet Samuel is at one point consulted after death by Solomon, providing an OT basis for believing that the soul never ceased existing) but with very rare exceptions (such as my parenthetical comment) it was believed that, without a body, your soul had no way of really interacting with the world, and this included having memories and thoughts. Basically, death seems to have been looked at as being similar to a permanent coma: The person hasn’t ceased to exist, and therefore the person probably experiences existence on some indescribably minimal level, but the person has no thoughts, no memories, no knowledge.

And when you think of it, this was a very sensible belief, before Divine Revelation slowly revealed more: After all, without Divine Intervention to give the souls of the dead some means of gathering knowledge, memories, etc. despite the loss of their ordinary means of doing so (the human brain), it makes sense to believe that they would still continue existing but would “know nothing.” We Christians know that–whether this has always been true or whether it only became [universally] true after Christ’s coming–the souls do indeed have intelligence, thought, and the ability to act, but at a certain point in Old Testament times, the Jews had no way of knowing this…

…that is if, in fact, it was even true at that time, aside from certain exceptions such as Moses, Abraham, etc. as explicitly noted in the NT. I myself don’t know how things worked before Christ’s coming–I have often suspected that this “Sheol” fate, and not only Hell, WAS one of the things from which Christ saved us, and if that’s true, people like Ecclesiastes were essentially correct…at that time. Either way, whether it was correct then or not, it’s certainly not correct now. And that’s the important thing.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Hee Hee Hee…Yup…There are those who “specialize” in trying to evangelize Catholics away from the Church.
Sounds like you can have some real fun evangelizing him.

you might mention to him that you hear more from the word of God at every 45 minute mass than he is likely to here in any 90 minute protestant sermon.

Peace
James
I can’t remember if I wrote this but I asked him what he thought of the verse eat my flesh and drink my blood. He still has not replied. But I sense he is waiting for the right moment to come back at me with all these Bible verses.
 
I too, came across an evangelical person that quoted Ecclesiastes 9:5; he says the dead are dead and they don’t know what’s going on here on earth. He says that “we” (the catholics) don’t have the Holy Spirit because we don’t understand.
 
In reference to the dead it says “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.”

A Protestant has used this saying that the CC is wrong for praying to the Saints. That the dead know nothing so why pray to them…

Does anyone have an explanation of this verse and why we still pray to the Saints.
I have already read the tract on praying to Saints but it was not enough Scriptural evidence I believe.
Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 17 (Douay Rhiems)
[1] And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: [2] And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. [3] And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.

These two seemed to know somthing. Long past their time her on earth.

Gospel According to Saint Mark Chapter 12 (Douay Rhiems)
[26] And as concerning the dead that they rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? [27] He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Per Christ those whom have gone one in God are not dead but still live.

What the verse the verse is saying is those that have gone on outside of Gods grace, Not those that are in Gods grace.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top