Ecclesiastes 9:5 goes against praying to the Saints in Heaven

  • Thread starter Thread starter Christine85
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
davidmlamb said:
There is no such thing as a dead Saint. Point out to your Protestant friend the Transfiguration. Moses was “dead and buried” yet Jesus was having a conversation with him. Jesus tells us that those who die in a state of grace never die! So if one dies in a state of grace they are not dead and they know all things. Read my article I wrote in 2002.

philvaz.com/apologetics/a96.htm

Peace,

David
Click to expand...
Excellent – succinct – fine job! 👍
 
KindredSoul said:
This is a good description of what the Old Testament Jews, especially during the time that Ecclesiastes was written, believed.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
Click to expand...
This is a good point, except that this was only one group of Jews. Others during the the OT and intertestamental period believed as we see in Maccabees in sacrifices for those who died to expiate their sins.

Ecclesiastes also needs to be understood in context. He is giving voice to much hopelessness and despair as well, expressing the state of humans in this frame of mind, not a doctrinal truth. Here is another example:

Eccl 4:1-3
4:1 Again I saw all the oppressions that are practiced under the sun. Look, the tears of the oppressed — with no one to comfort them! On the side of their oppressors there was power — with no one to comfort them. 2 And I thought the dead, who have already died, more fortunate than the living, who are still alive; 3 but better than both is the one who has not yet been, and has not seen the evil deeds that are done under the sun.

No Christian would claim that there is “no one to comfort them” when the are oppressed, or even a faithful Jew. But yet, many do feel isolated and lacking in comfort, because they are not under the shadow of Hiis wings.

The prophet here is speaking from a position of the soul in despair, he is not teaching doctrines of the faith.
 
Ecclesiastes 9:5 should not be taken out of context. If you read the next few verses you will find the thing they will never again experience personally is the existence they had on this earth. They will never again know what it is like to be in a corruptible body with us.

Never again will they have part in anything that happens under the sun, ie personal experience here on earth.

If you read Ecclesiastes 9:5 as the dead having no knowledge of anything then the doctrine is soul-sleep and that is a false doctrine.
 
Another favourite passage in the soul-sleep memvement is Psalm 146:4 which from the KJV reads

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Their reading of it is well if your thoughts perish you no longer can have thoughts and therefore are in a “sleep” state.

The actual reading should be plans, not thoughts. The plans that I was going to do on earth perish in that I can no longer fulfil them.

Jesus mentions this where a man decides to build bigger barns. His plan perished because that day his soul was required.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top