=Topper17;13355634]OK, fine. That’s pretty much what I expected.
Since you don’t know of a pathway to reunion, how about if I propose a hypothetical for your comments.
I think the thread’s OP kind of hints at a pathway, but I admit that what that looks like is probably beyond me.
I know that you would like to see the Church reunite with the Orthodox before Lutherans ‘get involved’, but I think that sort of ‘leaves out’ Lutheranism.
Actually, that’s not exactly what I’ve said. What I’ve said is that a reconciliation between
The Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome is central to greater reconciliation within the Church Catholic. That unity would have, in my view, a profound effect on non-Orthodox, non-Catholic Christians who are in their own right orthodox and catholic in the their Christian beliefs, making further unity more likely.
I think you would agree that unity including communions that do not see sacraments as part of God’s means of grace will be far more difficult.
Furthermore, it seems to me that Lutheranism overall has done a LOT of fracturing and has a LOT of internal problems that it needs to solve before it can come to the table with the Church.
As I’ve mentioned before, there are essentially two groups of Lutherans: those of the
Lutheran World Federation, and those of the
International Lutheran Council.
So – how about this – how about if Lutheranism holds its own Council, with each communion sending representatives and with the understanding that they would ALL abide by the doctrinal decisions that were made by the whole. This would result in a Unified Lutheranism, which I guess we would all then call the “ULs”. This unified communion would give you all a lot more ‘horsepower’ in dialogue with the Church than you have now.
If overall unity is the goal, this would be an excellent first step. It would certainly force the Church to sit up and take notice of how seriously you approached the problem of your internal strife.
You presume that Lutherans are not already in dialogue. I think it quite possible for Lutherans and Catholics, Catholics and Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans, Anglicans and Orthodox, Catholics and Anglicans, Lutherans and… well you get the picture, to dialogue in an ongoing manner.
But regarding Lutherans, the fact is that many of the LWF synods and national churches have been adrift into liberalism, modernism, etc. In the same way, this the case of some of the Old Catholics, and some Anglicans, and from what I hear, even some Catholic bishops, clergy, etc.
In fact, this is why I believe that unity between Rome and the EO brings a profound message to those Christians who remain traditional, orthodox, etc. OTOH, it might not have much of an effect on the liberal modernist wings of any of our communions, to be honest. For example, I believe the ELCA and TEC are completely vested in female ordination. It’s clearly a nonstarter for the EO and CC, and equally so for confessional orthodox Lutherans, and traditional Anglicans, to name a couple.
I think this and other reasons are why, more and more, the CC has begun turning to confessional Lutherans for dialogue, not that they’ve stopped talking to the LWF. But the LWF synods continue to actually march further away, with policies on same sex marriage, etc.
Now, to be sure, talks with modernist communions are crucial, but to set this as a prerequisite is no more helpful than Lutherans saying that CC (including the OC’s and PNCC, Sedevacantists, etc) and EO unity should be a prerequisite.
What do you think of this proposal Jon? Do you think you could possibly pull this off? If so, then how would you go about pulling this effort together?
More and more, I believe that the division within Christ’s Church is not so much about Catholic / non-Catholic, but instead traditional / orthodox and liberal / modernist.
When confessional Lutherans honestly look at the world around them, they realize that the real “enemy” is not the Catholic Church. It is modernism, influenced by the secular society, and bought into by liberal communions and synods.
How does that play into doctrinal unity? Beats me, but President Harrison sitting next to Bishop Lori, instead of Bishop Hansen, in front of a congressional committee speaking against the HHS Mandate, is far more telling about the state of Christianity as a whole, and less so about the state of pan-Lutheranism.
Jon
.) Unlike others on the thread, I think this connection has significant value. We share the creed and the fundamentals of traditional, established Christian doctrine. As you point out, this is more than we share with other more “modern” Catholic Christians or other “modern” Christians. The Christ I worship will make of this what he will, but I think he knows us as his disciples. This is what I mean when I say that the Church is comprised of the sheep - disciples who are repentant sinners who accept Christ and follow his Word. However, I don’t claim to know whom Christ chooses to save.