ECF's did they follow current doctrine?

[4given]

With all due respect and no intention to deliberately offend, I’d like to say that isn’t that the way of the RCC (is that term acceptable?)? Don’t they say “my way or the highway?” "Only we are the one true church, you need to come home to Rome, only we have the fulness of truth, etc.? Many of us know that it’s because of the truth of Scripture that we are in Christ’s universal church of all believers already if we’re saved and that doesn’t equal needing to belong to the RCC. I’m new so please forgive me if I’m overstepping the bounds. I’m not sure yet what I’m allowed to say and what I’m not.

There appears to be no edit button. I just wanted to add that by your statement saying that your prayer that all Christians will someday walk together as one, do you mean that you pray all Christians will join up with the RCC? In my humble opinion, all real Christian, wherever they are, are already one in our mutual faith in Christ regardless if we agree on every little thing or not.

 

[4given]

There is a difference…I was replying to the OP. I do not have a clue to what he believes. But there are lot’s out there who come here that just do not believe us Catholic’s are Christian. Or we might be inspite of being Catholic. And yes you do not need to Catholic to be “saved” the Catholic Church teaches that. We Catholic’s views non-Catholic Christians as our Separated Brethren in Christ. As I stated, some groups of Non-Catholic Christians veiw Catholic’s as Pagens and non-believers etc. etc. etc. With the OP’s last statement to me I’m I “saved” has me believing the later. No you are not out of bounds with your question. except maybe that we are straying away from the OP’s intent for this thread.

That’s true, we’re straying from the subject of the OP which is the ECF’s and do they actually support currect Catholic doctrine. Sorry, I tend to follow the others when they start straying!

 

[Eden]

I haven’t read the entirety of ECF writings. However, to make the claim that these men were not Catholic is not an intellectually dishonest statement. It is a fact that before the schism which created Orthodoxy in 1054, there was only one Church - the Catholic Church. As much as any Protestant may wish to dispute the Catholicity of the ECFs, it is still a plain fact that they were Catholic. Attempting to manipulate the writings of the ECF to support Protestant denominations is just as misdirected as Mormons quoting the Bible to support the claims of Joseph Smith. Your denominations all have documented start dates and founders. Only the Catholic Church was founded in 33 A.D. by Jesus Christ. Sorry, it’s a fact.

Another point to make, is that I see favoritmartin was concerned about the varied views by the ECFs about the Blessed Virgin. Before these teachings were defined as doctrine, it was completely acceptable for a Catholic bishop to ponder on the nature of Mary’s sinlessness. St. Augustine is a “Doctor of the Church” but not everything he wrote was without error. For instance, his understanding of “original sin” which he wrote about to confront the Pelagian heresy was not entirely accurate. Have you read the writings of the early Church Fathers on the Real Presence, infant baptism, the salvific effects of baptism, the primacy of Peter, the Biblical Church, Apostolic Succession,
Confession, divorce and remarriage, Holy Orders, Annointing of the Sick, the Saints, Justification, Purgatory… ? And you believe these men were anything but Catholic.

 

[Eden]

Myfavoritmartin, are you actually reading the ECFs or are you reading a Protestant website with disembodied quotes from the ECFs? This is not a Catholic site:

earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html

Given the overwhelming amount of converts to the Catholic Church who have given their stories of conversion on the Coming Home Network programs and state that it was reading the ECFs that led them to the Church, I find your conclusions unusual.

www.chnetwork.org

I’m going to go through the ECFs you mentioned and their beliefs. I’ll start with the Biblical Church:

PETER IS THE ROCK ON WHICH THE CHURCH IS BUILT

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…” *Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. *232).

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church…” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).

“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” *Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 375). *

“Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer.” *Augustine, Psalmus contro Partem Donati (A.D. 393). *

“But you say, the Church was rounded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one (Peter) among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.”*Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 1 (A.D. 393). *

“Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church,” Wherefore where Peter is the Church is…” Ambrose,* Commentary on the Psalms, 40:30 (AD 395). *
“At length, after being tempted by the devil, Peter is set over the Church.” Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms, 43:40 (AD 397).

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” *John Chrysostom, De Eleemosyna, 3:4 (ante A.D. 407). *

“He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd.” *Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on Matthew (A.D. 428). *

 

[Eden]

THE CHURCH IS CALLED “CATHOLIC”

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180). *

“Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” *Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350). *

"[T]he Article, In one** Holy Catholic Church**,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” *Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350). *

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” *Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390). *

“Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in the Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the** Catholic**. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.” *Augustine, On Faith and Creed, 10:21 (A.D. 393). *

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you.” Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

 

[Eden]

I’ll give you a chance to read through these statements by the ECFs and then return with more quotes from the ECFs you chose to represent as Protestant, with their views on the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the hierarchy of the Church, Confession, Holy Orders, the Annointing of the Sick, the Saints, Purgatory, Apostolic Succession, infant baptism, the salvific effects of baptism, etc. (Hint: They’re not Protestant).

 

[4given]

Question: how do you know that when the term “catholic” is used in historical records that it has anything to do with the RCC as we see it today? The word catholic means universal and Christ’s church is catholic in that it’s uinversal and includes all Christians. Just because the RCC took upon itself the name Catholic doesn’t necessarily prove the early church was the type of Catholic that we see today. It was catholic, small c, and consisted of all Christians. That’s my belief, anyway.

 

[tizzidale]

He keeps asking, “Have you read Augustine’s Retractions?” And, honestly, besides the passage where he questions his earlier understanding of the ‘Thou art Peter’ passage, I can’t for the life of me understand why he’s asking. Regardless, I’m more than interested in reading the retractions. Unfortunately I can find an etext of just about every writing except this work. Short of having to spend money gasp, does anyone have a link to an online translation?

thanks,

rusty

 

[Truthstalker]

Question: how do you know that when the term “catholic” is used in historical records that it has anything to do with the RCC as we see it today? The word catholic means universal and Christ’s church is catholic in that it’s uinversal and includes all Christians. Just because the RCC took upon itself the name Catholic doesn’t necessarily prove the early church was the type of Catholic that we see today. It was catholic, small c, and consisted of all Christians. That’s my belief, anyway.

I really like this question. See new thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1684356#post1684356

 

[4given]

I think I saw that thread. I’ll look at it.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

He keeps asking, “Have you read Augustine’s Retractions?” And, honestly, besides the passage where he questions his earlier understanding of the ‘Thou art Peter’ passage, I can’t for the life of me understand why he’s asking. Regardless, I’m more than interested in reading the retractions. Unfortunately I can find an etext of just about every writing except this work. Short of having to spend money gasp, does anyone have a link to an online translation?

thanks,

rusty

Unfortunately, I don’t believe other than small snippets, you’ll not find it online.

 

[Eden]

Question: how do you know that when the term “catholic” is used in historical records that it has anything to do with the RCC as we see it today? The word catholic means universal and Christ’s church is catholic in that it’s uinversal and includes all Christians. Just because the RCC took upon itself the name Catholic doesn’t necessarily prove the early church was the type of Catholic that we see today. It was catholic, small c, and consisted of all Christians. That’s my belief, anyway.

So, what happened to the Church that the ECF’s called “Catholic”? Remember what St. Augustine said? The Church was not just catholic (universal), it was called “Catholic”:

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” *Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390). *

 

[Eden]

Scripture Must Be Interpreted in Light of Church Tradition - The ECFs myfavoritmartin named did not believe in "Sola Scriptura"

“But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures…Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and write them and the table of your heart.” *Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 (A.D. 350). *

“Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the church alone, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth.” *Ambrose, Commentary of Psalm 118,19 (A.D. 388). *

“They teach what they themselves have learnt from their predecessors. They have received those rites which they explain from the Church’s tradition. They preach only ‘the dogmas of the Church’” John Chrysostom, Baptismal Instruction (A.D. 389).

“But when proper words make Scripture ambiguous, we must see in the first place that there is nothing wrong in our punctuation or pronunciation. Accordingly, if, when attention is given to the passage, it shall appear to be uncertain in what way it ought to be punctuated or pronounced, let the reader consult the rule of faith which he has gathered from the plainer passages of Scripture, and from the authority of the Church, and of which I treated at sufficient length when I was speaking in the first book about things.” Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, 3,2:2 (A.D. 397).

" ‘So then, brethren, stand fast, and** hold the traditions** which ye were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.’ Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther." *John Chrysostom, Homily on 2nd Thessalonians, 4:2 (A.D. 404). *

“My resolution is, to read the ancients, to try everything, to hold fast what is good, and not to recede from the faith of the Catholic Church.” *Jerome, To Minervius & Alexander, Epistle 119 (A.D. 406). *

“But those reasons which I have here given, I have either gathered from the authority of the church, according to the tradition of our forefathers, or from the testimony of the divine Scriptures, or from the nature itself of numbers and of similitudes. No sober person will decide against reason, no Christian against the Scriptures, no peaceable person against the church.” *Augustine, On the Trinity, 4,6:10 (A.D. 416). *

“[H]old fast the faith in simplicity of mind; establishing the tradition of the church as a foundation, in the inmost recesses of thy heart, hold the doctrines which are well-pleasing unto God.” Cyril of Alexandria, Festal Letters, Homily 8 (A.D. 442).

 

[Eden]

The ECFs the myfavoritmartin named believed Scripture is *not *subject to Private Interpretation

“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and** the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church **which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199). *

“For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings, in order to establish the heresy.” *Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 7:16 (post A.D. 202). *

“When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying: 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [the word of truth] ’ (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by the succession in the Church of God.” *Origen, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 46, PG 13:1667 (ante A.D. 254). *
“A most precious possession therefore is the knowledge of doctrines: also there is need of a wakeful soul, since there are many that make spoil through philosophy and vain deceit. The Greeks on the one hand draw men away by their smooth tongue, for honey droppeth from a harlot’s lips: whereas they of the Circumcision deceive those who come to them by means of the Divine Scriptures, which they miserably misinterpret though studying them from childhood to all age, and growing old in ignorance. But the children of heretics, by their good words and smooth tongue, deceive the hearts of the innocent, disguising with the name of Christ as it were with honey the poisoned arrows of their impious doctrines: concerning all of whom together the Lord saith, Take heed lest any man mislead you. This is the reason for the teaching of the Creed and for expositions upon it.” *Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4:2 (A.D. 350). *

 

[Eden]

O.K., this will be the last of the ECFs myfavoritmartin mentioned this evening. The ECFs that he mentioned believed in the Sacrament of Penance (Confession) and the ability of priests to forgive sins:

Origen

“[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from **declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord **and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity”’” (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

John Chrysostom

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven” (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

Ambrose

“For those to whom the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only” (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).

Jerome

“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him” (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine

“When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities.** That is why they are doing penance.** If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance” (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).

These men are clearly not Protestant!!! In which Protestant church do you find the Sacrament of Penance in which priests have the power to forgive sins?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Scripture Must Be Interpreted in Light of Church Tradition - The ECFs myfavoritmartin named did not believe in "Sola Scriptura"

“But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures…Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and write them and the table of your heart.” *Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 (A.D. 350). *

).

Eden your massive posting is going to take time, but it’s good it should help me drive my point home…
I’ll start with, whom you started with regarding the sufficiency of scripture here is cyril of J;

Cyril of Jerusalem
“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Scripture Must Be Interpreted in Light of Church Tradition - The ECFs myfavoritmartin named did not believe in "Sola Scriptura"

“Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the church alone, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth.” *Ambrose, Commentary of Psalm 118,19 (A.D. 388). *

]

Next up Ambrose…

Ambrose
**“For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?” **- Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)

“The Arians, then, say that Christ is unlike the Father; we deny it. Nay, indeed, we shrink in dread from the word. Nevertheless I would not that your sacred Majesty should trust to argument and our disputation. Let us enquire of the Scriptures, of apostles, of prophets, of Christ. In a word, let us enquire of the Father…So, indeed, following the guidance of the Scriptures, our fathers [at the Council of Nicaea] declared, holding, moreover, that impious doctrines should be included in the record of their decrees, in order that the unbelief of Arius should discover itself, and not, as it were, mask itself with dye or face-paint.” - Ambrose (Exposition of the Christian Faith, 1:6:43, 1:18:119)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Scripture Must Be Interpreted in Light of Church Tradition - The ECFs myfavoritmartin named did not believe in "Sola Scriptura"

“They teach what they themselves have learnt from their predecessors. They have received those rites which they explain from the Church’s tradition. They preach only ‘the dogmas of the Church’” John Chrysostom, Baptismal Instruction (A.D. 389).

I]

John Chrysostom
John Chrysostom didn’t agree with Roman Catholicism’s low view of the clarity of scripture:

“All things are dear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain.” (Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)

Roman Catholics often cite Acts 8:30-31 as evidence that reading scripture by ourselves, without the RCC interpreting it for us, is dangerous. But John Chrysostom reached just the opposite conclusion. Though other people can help us understand scripture, we don’t need their help. Chrysostom saw Acts 8:30-31 as an example of how we should read scripture for ourselves more often:
“But many in these times, even when they come to church, do not know what is read; whereas the eunuch, even in public (ep agoras) and riding in his chariot, applied himself to the reading of the Scriptures. Not so you: none takes the Bible in hand: nay, everything rather than the Bible. Say, what are the Scriptures for? For as much as in you lies, it is all undone. What is the Church for? Tie up the Bibles: perhaps the judgment would not be such, not such the punishment: if one were to bury them in dung, that he might not hear them, he would not so insult them as you do now. For say, what is the insult there? That the man has buried them. And what here? That we do not hear them. Say, when is a person most insulted - when he is silent, and one makes no answer, or, when he does speak and is unheeded? So that the insult is greater in the present case, when He does speak and thou wilt not hear: greater the contempt.” (Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, 19)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Scripture Must Be Interpreted in Light of Church Tradition - The ECFs myfavoritmartin named did not believe in "Sola Scriptura"

"
“My resolution is, to read the ancients, to try everything, to hold fast what is good, and not to recede from the faith of the Catholic Church.” *Jerome, To Minervius & Alexander, Epistle 119 (A.D. 406). *

"I]

You quoted Jerome! now it’s my turn, here is Jerome on the sufficiency of scripture… that is what we are talking about, RIGHT!

Jerome
“When, then, anything in my little work seems to you harsh, have regard not to my words, but to the Scripture, whence they are taken.” - Jerome (Letter 48:20)

“I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else.” - Jerome (Letter 53:10)

“When Paula comes to be a little older and to increase like her Spouse in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man, let her go with her parents to the temple of her true Father but let her not come out of the temple with them. Let them seek her upon the world’s highway amid the crowds and the throng of their kinsfolk, and let them find her nowhere but in the shrine of the scriptures” - Jerome (Letter 107:7)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

O.K., this will be the last of the ECFs myfavoritmartin mentioned this evening. The ECFs that he mentioned believed in the Sacrament of Penance (Confession) and the ability of priests to forgive sins:

?

I can respond writer by writer, and I will but kind of as a response to your massive posts I’ll do what you’ve done you spoke of penance and then listed writers… I’ll do the same.

PENANCE
Ambrose
Ambrose seems to have agreed with Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria regarding limitations on penance for some sins:
“Deservedly are they blamed who think that they often do penance, for they are wanton against Christ. For if they went through their penance in truth,
they would not think that it could be repeated again; for as there is but one baptism, so there is but one course of penance, so far as the outward practice goes,
for we must repent of our daily faults, but this latter has to do with lighter faults, the former with such as are graver.” (On Repentance, 2:10:95)

Basil
The Council of Trent falsely claimed:
“If any one denieth, either that sacramental confession was instituted, or is necessary to salvation, of divine right; or saith,
that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Church hath ever observed from the beginning, and doth observe,
is alien from the institution and command of Christ, and is a human invention; let him be anathema.”
(session 14, “Canons Concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of Penance”, canon 6)

In reality, there was no such system of private confession to a priest early on. Instead,
the earliest documents suggest that there were numerous types of confession practiced, sometimes only private confessions to God and other times public confessions. Basil gives us some examples of the public confession practiced and the generally more public and more severe nature of the penitential system of his day:

“The intentional homicide, who has afterwards repented, will be excommunicated from the sacrament for twenty years. The twenty years will be appointed for him as follows: for four he ought to weep, standing outside the door of the house of prayer, beseeching the faithful as they enter in to offer prayer in his behalf, and confessing his own sin. After four years he will be admitted among the hearers, and during five years will go out with them. During seven years he will go out with the kneelers, praying. During four years he will only stand with the faithful, and will not take part in the oblation. On the completion of this period he will be admitted to participation of the sacrament. The unintentional homicide will be excluded for ten years from the sacrament. The ten years will be arranged as follows: For two years he will weep, for three years he will continue among the hearers; for four he will be a kneeler; and for one he will only stand. Then he will be admitted to the holy rites. The adulterer will be excluded from the sacrament for fifteen years. During four he will be a weeper, and during five a hearer, during four a kneeler, and for two a stander without communion. The fornicator will not be admitted to participation in the sacrament for seven years; weeping two hearing two kneeling two, and standing one: in the eighth he will be received into communion.” (Letter 217:56-59)