Economics and the Church

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Hello Mellisa,

I stand corrected. Not all but most Catholics would not want a poor person and their children put out on the street with no food to eat because they donated what they had to live on to the clergy/poor.
 
Island Oak:
I can think of no finer example than Mary Jo Copeland. See the following summary of her ministry to the poor and homeless: savingbodyandsoul.com/mj.htm
Hello Island Oak,

Exellent link! You, or shall I say Mary Jo Copeland, have just given us the hope that we, the Church, can do it. Now we just have to make what Mary Jo Copeland has done in Minneapolis the common occurance rather than an amaizing mass media event which the world cannot hardly believe is true.
 
Steven Merten:
Hello Mellisa,

I stand corrected. Not all but most Catholics would not want a poor person and their children put out on the street with no food to eat because they donated what they had to live on to the clergy/poor.
Are you suggesting that the command to tithe is no longer in order? Wouldn’t that tend to make us just another Social Service organization that had no more to offer the poor than a temporary hand out? Or am I making too much of you comment?

CDL
 
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GregoryPalamas:
Are you suggesting that the command to tithe is no longer in order?
Our parish only requires 5% for a parishoner to tithe.
It suggests that you give the other 5% to charity…it does not mandate it or enforce it…just suggests!
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GregoryPalamas:
Wouldn’t that tend to make us just another Social Service organization that had no more to offer the poor than a temporary hand out?
CDL
In a sense the Church is another social service…it is another avenue for the poor. I do not know if they give more or less than the goverment in regards to help to the poor. That would be interesting to know. Just how much does the Church give to help the poor versus the goverment?
 
Is the money that the Church collects in tithing supposed to go to support the Church itself and to help the poor?

IF the above is the case… the question begs to be asked just how much of the money that the CHurch collects goes towards the poor?
 
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Karin:
Is the money that the Church collects in tithing supposed to go to support the Church itself and to help the poor?

IF the above is the case… the question begs to be asked just how much of the money that the CHurch collects goes towards the poor?
It would be great to have someone post if they were ever on a financial commitee at thier parish. Please do so as I was always under the impression that the weekly envelope was first used for Parish Administration - fixed costs - such as Salaries, Utilities, Church Maintainence and of course debt if there is a mortgage. Then…the archdicese takes over (here is where I get confused). So if someone can explain it would be great.

In regards to helping the poor, we have special collections throughout the year and of course the different charities.

(I do not not use the word tithe - I was part of the Word of Faith Movement for many years and it conjurs up many negative memories and abuses)
 
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we have two problems – a short term one and a long term one,

In the short term, we must help those who need help now – with affordable housing, food, clothing, and so on. In the long term, we must creat a world in which poverty is minimized.

The Church runs soup kitchens and so on, which are short term solutions. We need to step beyond that. To solve the problem long term we need first of all to ensure that every child gets a first-class education.

Our public schools have failed – and the worst failures are in the poorest areas, perpetuating the cycle of poverty. We must expand our Catholic schools – and not just for Catholic children, but for all children. Every diocese should have a committment to education – and have a monthly second collection to finance it.

Our next step is to break out of the mistaken idea that socialism is the Catholic way. We have to create jobs for those now-educated children, and the way to do that is with free trade and lower taxes.
 
Steven Merten:
Hello Mellisa,

I stand corrected. Not all but most Catholics would not want a poor person and their children put out on the street with no food to eat because they donated what they had to live on to the clergy/poor.
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GregoryPalamas:
Are you suggesting that the command to tithe is no longer in order? Wouldn’t that tend to make us just another Social Service organization that had no more to offer the poor than a temporary hand out? Or am I making too much of you comment?

CDL
Hello Gregory,

One of my great desires in life is to assist fellow Catholics to understand the great importance of loving Jesus through donations to the poor. This is, infact, what drew me to your thread.

I have heard that Catholics, on average, donate less than one percent of their income to the poor when, yes, it should be closer to ten percent. I have personaly seen the harm to poor from Catholic’s lack of proper donations as I have stated above.

Take this senario. You met a woman and her children who were on the brink of starvation and they were living on the street. So you bought $500.00 worth of food for them, paid to rent a place for them and put another $500.00 in her pocket. Then upon returning you find out that her children are all dead from starvation and she is back living on the street. You find out that she sold all the food, got reembersed the rent money and sent the whole amount of money to a church, to spend on clergy, for back tithe.

To me this would be counter productive. From all the Catholic homilies I have heard, Church leaders would not want people to tithe their families to the point of their own death.

On the other hand. A man once asked me, “I want to splerge a little on my wife. We have both been working hard to get out of financial termoil and we now have a little extra beyond the basic nessessities. Is that ok?” I asked him if his tithe was paid up. He said no. I advised him to give to God first. I advised him to make sure the full amount of his back tithe was paid up first and then would be the time for some small luxuries in life.
 
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GregoryPalamas:
That is a very thoughtful explication and much appreciated. What seems clear is that there is probably much more want than need in the clamour for better housing, etc.
Yes, my experience has been that there is much more want than need in better housing. Note I did not say for better housing. I said in better housing.

First of all, let me say that economics and the Church is not just about housing. Nor is it just about feeding the poor, clothing the poor, getting doctors to the poor, and so on.

It is about holding forth with the entire Gospel of Life. God already had a vision. My experience has been that housing-alone, soupkitchen-alone, freeclosets-alone are stopgap gestures. My experience has been that those folks we were attempting to help eight years ago on an urgent basis are still out on the street!

How can this be? Would socialists not actually want to see that their neighbours are provided for? No. Those same socialists who know every tactic for obtaining goods for themselves demonize those who are on the street. All these programs have been disjointed, disparate, fractured and ineffectual in getting folks off the street. Why? Because the Gospel of Life and the Real Presence are not what is driving socialism.

Well, is it true that street people are lacking in some way? Mentally ill perhaps? The statistics refute this. We have whole families on the street. We even have people with jobs on the street. Most of us in Canada are about one or two months away from being on the street. In any case, is there a law which says that the mentally ill have to be on the street? If so, what happened to all the mentally ill – or morally ill might be more accurate – who are in social housing?
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GregoryPalamas:
I gather that if we tithed and gave alms the housing problems would disappear among the members of the Church.
Not if what we do is not God’s will. If God calls us individually to step forward, then nothing can stop us. If we are stepping forward out of our own selves – even in an effort to interpret Scripture – any gains we make will be shortlived.

The poorest of the poor are surely the unborn at the mercy of the abortionist’s knive; the old or sick who are shunted into the lineup for euthanasia; the disabled whose grasp of social housing is really tenuous.

Yet we attempt to provide for these people without God and without providing for ourselves first. Going to confession and taking communion is critical. Beyond that, I think it would be very helpful for Churches to create Life cells: groups of parishioners who meet regularly to study and to live out the Gospel of Life in its entirety. Surely out of such abundance, then we will begin to see the poor experience miracles.

Yes, we will be providing money, houses, food, clothing, medicine, and so on. But the poor will also be in the presence of God. They will finally understand that God is for each individual one of them. And they will finally have Life and freedom. Life is the miracle.

What I am saying is that we have compromised and settled for less than what God wants for us and certainly much less than what God wants for our neighbours. We have settled for socialism and Catholicism is not socialism.
 
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Karin:
Blestone-
This is wonderful …!!!
Quick question though is anyone attempting to help them (migrants) get their status changed to LEGAL aliens?
Karin,
They are all legal…they are migrant farm workers…meaning that until now they have traveled from one part of the country to another seeking farm work during harvest or planting season. I for one welcome them to our community, they seem to like it here too.
 
Steven Merten:
One of my great desires in life is to assist fellow Catholics to understand the great importance of loving Jesus through donations to the poor.
This post starts out starts out with “one of my great desires.” Surely the desire of God through his Church should be considered on a Catholic forum. What is the desire of the Church with respect to the tithe and almsgiving? Has Augustine not set out the desire of the Church?
Steven Merten:
I have heard that Catholics, on average, donate less than one percent of their income to the poor when, yes, it should be closer to ten percent.
You have heard. I must call into question your claim to have heard. The tithe is 10%. It is ‘normally’ in money. But not necessarily, as Augustine points out. Nevertheless it must be given first before anything is taken out for personal needs or for giving to the poor. The tithe and almsgiving are not the same.
Steven Merten:
Take this senario… You find out that she sold all the food, got reembersed the rent money and sent the whole amount of money to a church, to spend on clergy, for back tithe. To me this would be counter productive. From all the Catholic homilies I have heard, Church leaders would not want people to tithe their families to the point of their own death…
You misrepresent the tithe. Catholic teaching requires the tithe to be paid first. And if that be in money, fine. And if it not be in money, fine. As long as it is paid first. To teach otherwise – as you are doing – is treading on thin theological ice.
Steven Merten:
I advised him to make sure the full amount of his back tithe was paid up first and then would be the time for some small luxuries in life.
Why was your first reflex to speak from your own point of view rather than to refer this gentleman to a priest? What vocation and training do you have to minister to this man’s soul?

And excuse me for asking such an obvious question, but what is “back tithe”? This sounds suspiciously like the teaching of Benny Hinn who is an evangelical and no longer a Catholic.

Some supporting links to actual Catholic teaching would help your case for the poor enormously.

Some supporting links to what the Catholic Church is doing for the poor would also help your case for the poor enormously.

Vern has set forth some suggestions which really merit examination. Our Catholic schools seem really to be very variable in preparing young human beings for life. The influence of the Church teaching in our secular society has also been eroded. Without the Gospel of Life, any help for the poor is socialism (nobless oblige by any other name). Catholicism is not socialism.
 
Without googling, I can say this about what is happening in Toronto:

The Franciscans built housing for the disabled called Tobias House.

Some other Franciscans set up a restaurant for the poor. For a dollar, the poor can be served by a waiter at a clean table.

The Cathedral is part of the Out of the Cold program which provides food for the homeless; clothing, recreation.

There is a Mary’s Place near the Cathedral.

St Vincent de Paul still goes out with emergency funds. They go into the person’s home and minister to the person instead of just throwing money at her.

The Sisters of St Joseph provide housing and support for unmarried pregnant teenagers.

In Canada and the US, there are literally thousands and thousands of pro-Life organizations.

The Catholic Church participates in the Chain of Life and also organizes Life Marches to abortuaries.

The Catholic Church participates in Campaign Life Coalition which is a political lobby group for the Gospel of Life.

The Catholic Civil Rights League defends Church teaching in a secular society.

These are only a few enterprises off the top of my head. The point is that a little googling will soon disabuse one of the notion that the Catholic Church is sitting on its hands with regard to the poor. The Catholic Church has been on the frontlines of the War against Poverty.

Yes, more can be done. What can folks report from your own communities?
 
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GregoryPalamas:
Ani,

I think it is important to point out what we the Church is doing to help the poor get on their feet. It is certainly not the only thing we are required to do but within this context of this thread it is important to know. It doesn’t bother me who can point out the reports of the Catholic agencies and report anecdotal evidence as has been done here to show the kinds of ways we are fulfilling what Christ commanded us to do.

I will spend a few minutes to see if I can find the website for Catholic Charities.

CDL
Amen Gregory! I think it is important to remember that people need dignity and respect almost as much as they need other things. Giving a poor person a job is alot better than giving them money or food. It gave me faith in myself again…I already had faith in God but lost faith in myself. That being so, I forgot that I was worthy of God and had to be reminded that I was worthy…that was my personal lesson to learn.
 
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BlestOne:
Amen Gregory! I think it is important to remember that people need dignity and respect almost as much as they need other things. Giving a poor person a job is alot better than giving them money or food. It gave me faith in myself again…I already had faith in God but lost faith in myself. That being so, I forgot that I was worthy of God and had to be reminded that I was worthy…that was my personal lesson to learn.
My former pastor had a thing about “big houses.”

I have a fairly big house, so I asked him, “Father Wood, should I have given the money to the poor instead?”

That put him on the spot, and he hemmed and hawed and finally said, it would have been better if I had given some of the money to the poor.

Then I said, “But I did give the money to some poor men. And they built a house for me in return. In the process, I gave them the dignity of working for a living, instead of depending on charity – and you know what? One of the people who worked on my house thanked me for giving him the opportunity to work with the two master builders I hired – he said he learned a lot from them.”
 
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BlestOne:
Karin,
They are all legal…they are migrant farm workers…meaning that until now they have traveled from one part of the country to another seeking farm work during harvest or planting season. I for one welcome them to our community, they seem to like it here too.
Sorry Blestone…I thought you meant the migrant workers that where not legal.
 
Oh gosh, I was using the search window to find some stats on the sex abuse scandal and this thread came up. I had forgotten how much this meant to me. I also think it is very important for folks to know just how much the Church is doing out there. The assumption seems to be that the Church is doing very little other than clothing Her priests in embroidered silks and adoring Her cathedrals with sacred art (sometimes thought of as idols).

Here is another statistic I picked up along the way: 25% of the total world assistance to AIDS victims comes from the Catholic Church.

Here is some information on the ‘riches’ of the Church.
 
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