Economics and the Church

[Philip_P]

This is a good thread, but I do have a general question before I try to answer the specifics raised -

I’ve noticed on discussions such as these an attitude in some responses that seems to make responsibilit for the poor an either/or thing. Either it should be the church or the state. I don’t really understand this, perhaps someone who feels this way could clarify? Why can’t it be both? As Catholics we have moral responsibilities toward the poor and marginalized, so I understand and agree with calls for more active involvement by Catholics as individuals and as a church. But I don’t really understand the idea that the state has no responsibility, especially on an issue such as housing. The state has power over things such as zoning laws and building code, tax breaks and incentives, and such. These factors are surely relevant in any discussion of affordable housing, and clearly within the legitimate jurisdiction of the state. Am I just misunderstanding the posters who seem to want the state out of affordable housing?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

In a Monarchy the issue would be easy. The King has certain responsibilities under God and the Bishop has certain other responsibilities under God. Sadly, we don’t have such a government. We can say that the State has certain responsibilities but how does one justify the responsibility given that the state claims no allegience to God. In a secular state the best we can do is fulfill our own responsibilities to the poor as God gives them and hope that Catholics within the government will use whatever influence they have. But really there is no theoretical reason for a Democratic state to obey any of the laws of God.

CDL

 

[Karin]

It would seem the main issue(s) are that 1. Catholics as a whole are not doing enough indiviually and via their parishes to helpt he poor 2. people in general hoist the burden to help the poor on the goverment and not on themselves or their communities (religious)

 

[mastda]

Karin:

It would seem the main issue(s) are that 1. Catholics as a whole are not doing enough indiviually and via their parishes to helpt he poor 2. people in general hoist the burden to help the poor on the goverment and not on themselves or their communities (religious)

I think these 2 points are linked and here is why. The reason why people in general hoist the burden to help the poor on the goverment is because we are already taxed enough that peoples attitudes have become this way. Taxes taken off of our paycheques and in Canada we pay a provincial tax and a federal one.

Also because there are so many (I did not say all or most, I just said many) people who abuse the social net systems, its made us leary to give. This is why I give generously to the Church and Catholic Charities and I hope they are being good stewards.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Karin:

It would seem the main issue(s) are that 1. Catholics as a whole are not doing enough indiviually and via their parishes to helpt he poor 2. people in general hoist the burden to help the poor on the goverment and not on themselves or their communities (religious)

This is certainly true. Statism is going to do us in. The State is not God. Yet we ("society) have given it a God like status. We Catholics sometimes fall into this trap as well. There are responsibilities in the ideal situation for both. But how does one guide the state when it bends to no one?

The Canadian situation is probably worse than ours from what I can tell.

CDL

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Blessed One,

For the sake of our readers, can you explain why you went through such a desparate struggle seeking help through the State, rather than seeking help through Christ’s Bride the Church?

Why did you not seek to have your heat, food, rent, health care paid for by the Church in such a desperate situation?

 

[Karin]

Steven Merten:

Hello Blessed One,

For the sake of our readers, can you explain why you went through such a desparate struggle seeking help through the State, rather than seeking help through Christ’s Bride the Church?

Why did you not seek to have your heat, food, rent, health care paid for by the Church in such a desperate situation?

I think that she answered that here in her post…

*QUOTE *
BlestOne
Greg, I did go to the church and they offered me financial counselling and gave me a $50 voucher for food. That was good for an emergency, but long term I needed more help. I also had a pride thing going on…I don’t think I would have accepted any more from them at that time. I learned through all I went through at that time, to ask for help when I needed it and the bigggest lesson was to have faith…it was funny how my needs were met at the time I needed it most when I just had faith

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Steven Merten:

For the sake of our readers

Please speak for yourself. No need to appeal to readers who may not actually be interested in your question.
Steven Merten:

can you explain why you went through such a desparate struggle seeking help through the State, rather than seeking help through Christ’s Bride the Church? Why did you not seek to have your heat, food, rent, health care paid for by the Church in such a desperate situation?

These are rhetorical questions. You have posted a long list of rhetorical questions now which you have levelled against the Church.

The answers to my one question is still outstanding: What is the Church doing? And please list all the things which the Church is doing.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Karin:

I think that she answered that here in her post…

*QUOTE *
BlestOne
Greg, I did go to the church and they offered me financial counselling and gave me a $50 voucher for food. That was good for an emergency, but long term I needed more help. I also had a pride thing going on…I don’t think I would have accepted any more from them at that time. I learned through all I went through at that time, to ask for help when I needed it and the bigggest lesson was to have faith…it was funny how my needs were met at the time I needed it most when I just had faith

Hello Karin,

I am Catholic.

I do not see hiding what we 1.1 billion Catholics are not doing for the poor as a good thing. If priests, bishops and Popes are not focusing on what the Church is not doing to assist the poor in order to preserve a glorious image of the Church to the world, then this is a great distraction from their job of leading Catholics to do the will of Jesus which is to care for the poor.

True faith would be the Church, 1.1 billion Catholics, making absolutly sure, through proper donations, that a person such as Blessed One has housing, food, health care etc. for herself and her children, in times of need.

Assistance for the poor should be made available for the poor by 1.1 billion Catholics. The poor should be taught that they should rely on the Church in times of need. This is the work Jesus left for His Church in order for the Church to show Her love for Jesus. I believe that $50.00 voucher, to a person who needs thousands, or tens of thousands, to properly care for her children, and a verbal “have faith” farewell is not enough from Christ’s Bride of 1.1 billion Catholics.

NAB JAM 2:14

My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, has it? **If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and no food for the day, and you say to them, “Good-bye and good luck! Keep warm and well fed,” but do not meet their bodily needs, what good is that? so it is with the faith that does nothing in practice. It is thoroughly lifeless.
**

 

[mastda]

Ani Ibi:

Please speak for yourself. No need to appeal to readers who may not actually be interested in your question.

These are rhetorical questions. You have posted a long list of rhetorical questions now which you have levelled against the Church.

The answers to my one question is still outstanding: What is the Church doing? And please list all the things which the Church is doing.

This is pretty harsh! Is there something I am detecting between the 2 of you?

 

[Melissa]

Karin:

I think that Catholics (general) do not give that much any more to the poor because the Goverment is so (LOL) involved in the welfare system, so they perhaps think between their taxes and what little they do give that is enough…why give more!!!

Perhaps if the Church actually came out and strongly insisted (or whatever word fits better) that catholics should do more they would?

It’s also a bit of the case that after the state has finished with their confiscatory income tax and meeting one’s own family’s needs, there isn’t enough left to give more to the Church to care for the poor.

In my family’s case: by income, we qualify for WIC handily (I’m not actually getting it, and it’d end in a couple months anyway, because my twins are almost 5). The same entries on the W2 form that nets us a $3K refund from the feds has us owing to the state about half the fed. refund on top of the withholding over the course of the year.

Then with the increase in sales tax and the increase granted to the utility company to pay for the health benefits of their retirees … we don’t have 15-20% of our income available for charitable giving. If we gave more than about 5% of gross, we’d have to receive aid from the Church ourselves (which would be rather self-defeating, really).

 

[Steven_Merten]

Melissa:

It’s also a bit of the case that after the state has finished with their confiscatory income tax and meeting one’s own family’s needs, there isn’t enough left to give more to the Church to care for the poor.

In my family’s case: by income, we qualify for WIC handily (I’m not actually getting it, and it’d end in a couple months anyway, because my twins are almost 5). The same entries on the W2 form that nets us a $3K refund from the feds has us owing to the state about half the fed. refund on top of the withholding over the course of the year.

Then with the increase in sales tax and the increase granted to the utility company to pay for the health benefits of their retirees … we don’t have 15-20% of our income available for charitable giving. If we gave more than about 5% of gross, we’d have to receive aid from the Church ourselves (which would be rather self-defeating, really).

Hello Mellisa,

I think most Catholics would agree that it is personal spending on oneself, beyond nessessity spending, before a proper donation to God, which we are addressing. Certianly no Catholic would want a person put out on the street due to spending more than they can afford on donations to the Church. To do so would be counter productive as you suggest.

It is a Catholics wealth and income, after basic nessessities of that Catholic and their families have been met, that should now be firstly given to God in a proper donation to care for the poor.

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s, Give to God what is God’s.

 

[Melissa]

True–but part of my point is that my state’s taxes are really impeding our ability to give, and that there is really something wrong w/ the picture when the feds are giving you a 4-digit refund while the state is taking even more money than they already did. So, it might well be more than just someone saying, in essence “I gave at the office” w/ reference to paying the taxes and not financially supporting the food pantry (for example) w/ an equal dollar amount.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Steven Merten:

I do not see hiding what we 1.1 billion Catholics are not doing for the poor as a good thing.

Do you not think it is presumptuous to state so baldly that the Catholic Church is hiding something? Do you feel no compunction whatsoever to back up your statements and innuendo with evidence?

What exactly are ’ we ’ Catholics not doing for the poor?
Steven Merten:

leading Catholics to do the will of Jesus which is to care for the poor.

Caring for the poor is only part of the picture. What is the other part?
Steven Merten:

True faith would be the Church, 1.1 billion Catholics, making absolutly sure, through proper donations, that a person such as Blessed One has housing, food, health care etc. for herself and her children, in times of need.

True faith? According to who? Is this your personal opinion or are you attempting to represent the teaching of the Church in some way? If the latter, please provide evidence.
Steven Merten:

This is the work Jesus left for His Church in order for the Church to show Her love for Jesus.

Really? Is this the only work Jesus left? Or just the work you decided was important?
Steven Merten:

I believe that $50.00 voucher, to a person who needs thousands, or tens of thousands, to properly care for her children, and a verbal “have faith” farewell is not enough from Christ’s Bride of 1.1 billion Catholics.

What non-Scriptural Catholic source can you quote to support this?

And please set out what the Church is doing to help the poor. You cannot credibly argue that the Church is not doing enough to help the poor unless you describe what the Church is doing to help the poor.

Catholicism is not socialism.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Ani,

With respect to you, if I were Steve I would ignore your questions. I think it is important to point out what we the Church is doing to help the poor get on their feet. It is certainly not the only thing we are required to do but within this context of this thread it is important to know. It doesn’t bother me who can point out the reports of the Catholic agencies and report anecdotal evidence as has been done here to show the kinds of ways we are fulfilling what Christ commanded us to do.

I will spend a few minutes to see if I can find the website for Catholic Charities.

CDL

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Steven Merten:

I think most Catholics would agree

Are you speaking for most Catholics now? How did that happen?
Steven Merten:

Certainly no Catholic would want a person put out on the street due to spending more than they can afford on donations to the Church. To do so would be counter productive as you suggest.

Is this a Church teaching? Is this the meaning of tithe?
Steven Merten:

It is a Catholics wealth and income, after basic nessessities of that Catholic and their families have been met, that should now be firstly given to God in a proper donation to care for the poor.

Not after the basic necessities of that Catholic. Before. And tithe does not refer only to material gifts, although for all practical purposes we pay one tenth of our material gains first to the clergy before any other of our expenses our considered.

Why? Because the clergy is the guardian of our souls. Tithe is the spiritual respect to be paid toward God through the clergy. Tithe = Ten. One tenth to God. Then come almsgiving and basic necessities.

But truly: one tenth of what?

Augustine:

why did He say to them," Do alms, and behold all things are clean unto you"? What is, “Do alms”? Do mercy. What is, “Do mercy”? If thou understand, begin with thine own self. For how shouldest thou be merciful to another, if thou art cruel to thyself? “Give alms, and all things are clean unto you.” Do true alms. What is alms? Mercy. Hear the Scripture; “Have mercy on thine own soul, pleasing God.” Do alms, “Have mercy on thine own soul, pleasing God.” Thine own soul is a beggar before thee, return to thy conscience.

Return to what?

Return to thy conscience.

Augustine:

…if thou neglect this alms, give what thou wilt, give how much thou wilt; reserve of thy goods not a tenth, but a half; give nine parts, and leave but one for thine own self: thou doest nothing, when thou doest not alms to thine own soul, and art poor in thyself. Let thy soul have its food, that it perish not by famine.

What food shall my soul have?

Augustine:

Give her bread. What bread, thou wilt say? He speaketh with thee Himself. If thou wouldest hear, and understand, and believe the Lord, He would say to thee Himself, "I am the Living Bread which came down from heaven.

I am the what? “I am the Living Bread which came down from heaven.”

The Sermon on the Mount was followed by what?

The Sermon on the Mount was followed by the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. This is a hard saying. The disciples said it was hard and walked away from Jesus when he said:

He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever. Jn 6:55-59

Throwing money at the poor is no miracle. Quite the contrary. Throwing money at the poor is nobless oblige which cynically operates to keep the poor in place. It is God’s grace and presence in the lives of folks which is the miracle. And if God determines that the beggar at the corner of the market shall indeed corner the market – instead of those who so piously threw money at her – then so be it.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Jesus saw the disciples chasing after Him the day after the Sermon on the Mount. He sized them up and said:

Amen, amen, I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves and were filled. Jn 6:26

You were filled. He did not say you were filled except for one tenth of you which you reserved for Me. He said you were filled.

thou doest nothing, when thou doest not alms to thine own soul

Why was Able’s tithe more pleasing to God than Cain’s tithe? Because Able’s tithe was his first calf. What was the significance of the calf being first? Was it because it was the fattest calf and therefore the calf that Able most wanted to roast? No, we know that animals were made available for food only after the Flood.

Able’s calf was the calf he loved most because its birth had been the most wondrous to him in the land of death and therefore to give up the calf was the greatest expression of trust which Able could offer to God.

It is this trust in God which is at the root of the tithe. If trust in God does not come before all else, all else is worthless to our souls.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

GregoryPalamas:

Ani, With respect to you, if I were Steve I would ignore your questions.

How is that respectful to me? Have you in fact ignored my questions? It seems to me that you are now googling some answers to my central question which is what is the Church doing for the poor?

GregoryPalamas:

I will spend a few minutes to see if I can find the website for Catholic Charities.

I am genuinely pleased that you confirm that no more than a few minutes need be spent ascertaining what the Church is doing for the poor. Do I think that a few minutes will suffice to list all the things the Church is doing for the poor? No, I don’t think so. But listing them all is not necessary.

A little time spent checking things out before posting is time well spent. In this case, the enormous scope of what the Church does for the poor will become apparent by googling only a few webpages.

Do I suspect that more Catholics can come forward into works of faith? Yes. But, by saying yes, I do not imply that the work of Catholics has thusfar been inadequate. My glass is half full, not half empty.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Ani,

That is a very thoughtful explication and much appreciated. What seems clear is that there is probably much more want than need in the clamour for better housing, etc. I gather that if we tithed and gave alms the housing problems would disappear among the members of the Church.

CDL

 

[Island_Oak]

GregoryPalamas:

…Do we have examples of Catholics who have created communities that would provide housing for the poor even the working poor? Are there groups Catholic or not that have done such things with whom we might refer?

What stories do you have about your own work in this area or about others who have worked in this area that might point us to ways to address the problem of housing for the working poor?

I can think of no finer example than Mary Jo Copeland. See the following summary of her ministry to the poor and homeless: savingbodyandsoul.com/mj.htm
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