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wynd
Guest
As a kid growing up in the Latin church, we still thought it was too long.
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
I served daily Mass for probably 7+ years, along with weekly Adoration and Benediction. The length never bothered me personally. Those are some of the happiest memories of my childhood. It is these memories that instilled in me a deep love of the Roman Rite in its current form (yes, I do still respect and admire the Extraordinary Form as well).As a kid growing up in the Latin church, we still thought it was too long.
Benediction was one of my favorite things to serve. I was always the server in charge of the incense. My surplice had burn holes all over in it from lighting the charcoals. Good times.
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akemner
Guest
My favorite part of the current RR is the Easter Vigil.
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JuniperoSerra
Guest
I attend both Latin Rite and Byzantine Rite churches. While I would never be in favor of foisting any changes on the EC churches simply because I like them, here is my list:
- I appreciate the kneeling in the Latin Rite, but I don’t like those who ignore the EC traditions and kneel in EC churches.
- I prefer the more elegant and more historically accurate priestly vestments in the Latin Rite. The pomp of some EC vestments borders on the ridiculous.
- I appreciate the shorter length of the Mass versus some Divine Liturgies.
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JuniperoSerra
Guest
It’s been my personal experience that many ECs (most commonly converts from the Western Church) use every chance they get to denigrate the Western Church. Like it or not I believe their constant negativity is a product of insecurity leading to inferiority complexes.
Some will no doubt take issue with this but I have felt and observed inferiority complexes outside of the Church and their behavior is a dead giveaway.
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Divine3
Guest
Wow! That is some judgment! I wouldn’t call it an observation at all. Saint John Paul ll told us to breath with two lungs and that will only happen when the East and the West unite-- so go ahead and judge but you are not working for the west or the east. Just an observation. If you love the Holy Trinity, Our Lady and the beauty of chant then you just might like the experience of the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern rite –
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JuniperoSerra
Guest
I have been attending the DL for over 15 years.
I have dealt with a huge number of ECs. A large number of them have what I call “manufactured contempt” for the Latin Rite. Like it or not, that contempt and constant denigration is a product of feeling inferior.
Lots of large/powerful entities are targets of such contempt and denigration. A good example of that inferiority complex would be Russia’s view of the US – in fact many country’s views of the US. Another would be some Protestants’ views of the Catholic Church. Or some Americans’ views of NYC and those that live there. The condition is not rare, nor is it terribly difficult to read.
Now don’t make the mistake and suggest that I said the Eastern Side of the Church is inferior to the Western Side. It’s not. They’re both equally important but the way in which many ECs act towards the Western Church is very negative and it’s driven largely by a feeling of inferiority.
You dismiss the truth by making charges of me “judging.” All I am doing is pointing out the obvious and it’s because of people like you that progress is not made with this problem.
If I was having this discussion in real life with an EC who denigrates the Western Church they’d also play the excuse card of being abused innocents. That all the ills of the Eastern churches in the US are (and remain) a product of their mistreatment by the Western Church. I’m hear “Latinizations” mentioned about two dozen times and that would be the end of the conversation.
At some point many ECs (particularly in the US it seems) will need to look in the mirror and begin taking responsibility for the conditions of their churches and individual parishes.
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Divine3
Guest
HI!
Sincere regrets for not understanding your point. Interesting observation and yes it would be great to have the Latin rite follow the rubrics set out by the Church. How to go about that when one is not an ordained clergy is another story. I am not about to picket a bishop or my pastor. They will have to face God one day and I’ll let God take care of them. May our lady seat of wisdom also help them – but so many of our churches have been striped and look like protestant churches and they paid big bucks to make them that way, then the Bishops close down the churches that really look like churches which the people have sacrificed for by donations for years.In the eastern church they have a real reality, at least the one I went to a couple of times, of community and they welcome children wonderfully at the liturgies and you even see families with more than 3 children, now that is amazing to witness. Young families who come for miles to attend a long liturgy. A blessed holy lent to all eastern and Latin I read you shouldn’t say roman because the protestants are the ones centuries ago who gave us that name so I use latin to distinguish the roman catholic rite.
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Zabdi_Premjit
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So you think there is mass of baptised-Latins, who deep down consider the Latin rite superior to the other rites, and yet they transfer to a rite they consider inferior, so they must now denigrate those persons who remained Latin, because they, the transferees, feel insecure due to choosing to leave something they saw a superior. Yes, we all know that it is natural human tendency to leave something seen as superior for something seen as inferior.
Have you ever considered that ECs’ criticism of the Latin rite for being mess might be due to them actually seeing a mess?
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angelic06
Guest
It is probably best to return to the OP’s request for positive things about the Roman rite, not negative ones, lest this be another Latin Church bashing thread and consequently having it closed in short order.
While I am not an Eastern Catholic in view of the CCEO, I did post my own response to the OP in order to get the ball rolling.
While I am not an Eastern Catholic in view of the CCEO, I did post my own response to the OP in order to get the ball rolling.
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Zabdi_Premjit
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I am not EC. Also, this comment does not relate to the Roman-rite Mass, but to the Canonical Hours. (Hey, they are liturgy too!)
I must say that I like that you all have Breviaries that collect the material for praying the hours in nice compact books. Sounds convenient (and simple to use).
I must say that I like that you all have Breviaries that collect the material for praying the hours in nice compact books. Sounds convenient (and simple to use).
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JuniperoSerra
Guest
Did you notice how you responded by shifting to “it would be great to have the Latin rite follow the rubrics set out by the Church” and comments about church buildings? That’s very transparent, but not at all unexpected.HI!
In the eastern church they have a real reality, at least the one I went to a couple of times, of community and they welcome children wonderfully at the liturgies and you even see families with more than 3 children, now that is amazing to witness. Young families who come for miles to attend a long liturgy. A blessed holy lent to all eastern and Latin I read you shouldn’t say roman because the protestants are the ones centuries ago who gave us that name so I use latin to distinguish the roman catholic rite.
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JuniperoSerra
Guest
Please don’t ever try to speak for me…
Most people that I know that attend my EC parish are very disgruntled Latin Rite Catholics. Very negative people in general. They have never known the effects of “latinizations” yet it’s a fixation for them. A fixation they learned after joining the parish.
There are far fewer cradle ECs and converts to EC. I’m not sure why more that’s actually convert – it’s pushed very strongly by the pastor.
The inferiority complexes are very real and it’s done a number on the ECs and the orthodox churches. And it will continue…
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Zabdi_Premjit
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I apologise if I spoke for you…
I still don’t see why someone who thinks the Latin rite is superior would transfer to an Eastern rite. Seems to me they usually transfer due to feeling that the current Latin rite is experiencing issues that causes the EC to look subjectively superior to what they have experienced as a Latin.
Yes, there are ex-Latin ECs that are very critical of the Latin rite and Latinisations they never encountered, but I do not believe this attitude is due to an inferiority complex. The fact is that when people convert, they often tend to be very critical or hostile toward what they were before. So, ex-Latin ECs are often hostile to Latins, ex-Muslim Christians are often hostile to Islam, ex-Christian Hindus are often hostile to Christianity, etc. It is not an inferiority complex, but a common way in which humans often assert a new identity. Does it often get far out of hand? Yes. This attitude is a temptation that any convert to anything should be mindful of and beware of.
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Casilda
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I believe us EC converts have struck a nerve with you. Its sad you have to denigrate us, shows your inferiority complex.
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
I’m with you on this one. I’m grateful that my own Maronite tradition (yes, I’m a “convert”/transfer into that tradition) has the three volume Divine Office. It’s not perfect, but it’s good enough for me until something (hopefully) better comes along.
The Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Stamford recently (re)released a one-volume version of the Byzantine Divine Office meant for the private use of clergy and any laity who wish to pray the Office at home. It’s quite lovely.
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JuniperoSerra
Guest
Who said they believe the Latin Rite is “superior”? They don’t necessarily have to feel the Latin Rite is superior to feel and project the effects of an inferiority complex.
For instance, I don’t think many anti-Catholic Protestants feel the Catholic Church is superior to their own. Yet a big reason they attack the Church is because of its immense size, power and influence. They most definitely feel inferior in these areas and their behavior is proof of that. Similarly I don’t like most adherents of say Russian Orthodoxy feel the Catholic Church is superior to their own, yet the inferiority complexes they project towards the Church are undeniable.
By far the greatest number of people I know that attend ECs are not converts. They remain RCs. It’s these people in my experience (and not cradle ECs or converts) that are the most hostile to the Western Church. No question it has to do with feelings of inferiority in large part.
I have absolutely no doubt that they would act far different if ECs were represented at the same numerical level as RCs in this world or even in the US.
Size, power, influence, wealth and a host of other qualities influence feelings of inferiority in others. As an American I have felt that all my life. As a Christian I have felt it, especially as a Catholic Christian. I have also felt it as a Californian. It’s a very understandable and a very human behavior. I’m not attacking Eastern Catholicism for the large amount of such behavior in its midst. Only that it exists and that they need to recognize it as a first step to solving it.
In fact, that’s unfair. Many already do recognize it (including bishops) and I do think that some progress is being made in this area.
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Zabdi_Premjit
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How complete and easy to use is it?I’m with you on this one. I’m grateful that my own Maronite tradition (yes, I’m a “convert”/transfer into that tradition) has the three volume Divine Office. It’s not perfect, but it’s good enough for me until something (hopefully) better comes along.
The Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Stamford recently (re)released a one-volume version of the Byzantine Divine Office meant for the private use of clergy and any laity who wish to pray the Office at home. It’s quite lovely.
Also, is it in contemporary English or some variation of early modern English (thees and thous?
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JuniperoSerra
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I didn’t say anything about “converts.” Quite the opposite in fact. It’s interesting to ponder why so many RCs who attend EC parishes remain RCs despite fairly strong attempts to convert them?
I didn’t denigrate anyone. That’s a lie. Nor did I “judge” anyone. I simply pointed out the obvious truth. Truth that’s a lot like a huge pink elephant in the room which some do no want to acknowledge.
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