ECs, what do you like in the Roman-Rite liturgy?

[Phillip_Rolfes]

How complete and easy to use is it?

Also, is it in contemporary English or some variation of early modern English (thees and thous?

Structurally, from what I’ve seen, it’s fairly complete and maintains the structure of the Syriac texts. However, there are some significant revisions, abridgments, and new texts that are added as “optional.” Again, it’s not perfect, but it serves its purpose for this point in time. I know of a project under way to get a more complete form of the “Ordinary” published, but as to when that might happen… I hope soon.

I’ve also heard talk of there being a complete revision and translation done for the entire English-speaking world. Again, if/when that will happen…

The current translation is taken from a French text. It is in modern English (which is my preference). The Psalms are from the pre-revised Grail Psalter and biblical texts from the NAB-RE. I know the use of the NAB-RE, Grail Psalms and modern English are controversial for many, but I honestly don’t mind them at all. Again, just a matter of preference.

I do look forward to the day when there is a more official and (hopefully) complete text to use.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I didn’t say anything about “converts.” Quite the opposite in fact. It’s interesting to ponder why so many RCs who attend EC parishes remain RCs despite fairly strong attempts to convert them?

I didn’t denigrate anyone. That’s a lie. Nor did I “judge” anyone. I simply pointed out the obvious truth. Truth that’s a lot like a huge pink elephant in the room which some do no want to acknowledge.

Oh, I forgot to mention how easy it is to use… Once one gets accustomed to the Maronite liturgical calendar, it’s extremely easy to use.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

Structurally, from what I’ve seen, it’s fairly complete and maintains the structure of the Syriac texts. However, there are some significant revisions, abridgments, and new texts that are added as “optional.” Again, it’s not perfect, but it serves its purpose for this point in time. I know of a project under way to get a more complete form of the “Ordinary” published, but as to when that might happen… I hope soon.

I’ve also heard talk of there being a complete revision and translation done for the entire English-speaking world. Again, if/when that will happen…

The current translation is taken from a French text. It is in modern English (which is my preference). The Psalms are from the pre-revised Grail Psalter and biblical texts from the NAB-RE. I know the use of the NAB-RE, Grail Psalms and modern English are controversial for many, but I honestly don’t mind them at all. Again, just a matter of preference.

I do look forward to the day when there is a more official and (hopefully) complete text to use.

I think you misunderstood me. I was asking about the Ukrainian book.

I appreciate the information about the Maronite one though, as I seem to have started a personal collection of prayer books, Orthodox and Catholic. Maybe I will investigate this Maronite book further one day.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I think you misunderstood me. I was asking about the Ukrainian book.

I appreciate the information about the Maronite one though, as I seem to have started a personal collection of prayer books, Orthodox and Catholic. Maybe I will investigate this Maronite book further one day.

Hahahahahahahaha!!! I apologize for my misunderstanding. You’re absolutely right though, that one just completely went over my head!

I’ve only flipped through the Ukrainian book a little. It is in modern English, but in a very elegant style. It looked as though it would be very easy to use for private prayer, provided one was is fairly familiar with the Byzantine liturgical flow.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

Hahahahahahahaha!!! I apologize for my misunderstanding. You’re absolutely right though, that one just completely went over my head!

I’ve only flipped through the Ukrainian book a little. It is in modern English, but in a very elegant style. It looked as though it would be very easy to use for private prayer, provided one was is fairly familiar with the Byzantine liturgical flow.

Aw. I always see nice books published by Ukrainians, but they are all in contemporary English. Not quite the same experience to me. Maybe I will still check it out though.

 

[5Loaves]

I attend both Latin Rite and Byzantine Rite churches. While I would never be in favor of foisting any changes on the EC churches simply because I like them, here is my list:

• I appreciate the kneeling in the Latin Rite, but I don’t like those who ignore the EC traditions and kneel in EC churches.
• I prefer the more elegant and more historically accurate priestly vestments in the Latin Rite. The pomp of some EC vestments borders on the ridiculous.
• I appreciate the shorter length of the Mass versus some Divine Liturgies.

Perhaps you mean kneeling on Sundays, since we surely do kneel, and prostrate, in EC churches at other times. Those who have already begun Great Lent have been kneeling and prostrating plenty by now. Forgiveness Vespers alone is quite an aerobic workout.

 

[Peter_J]

It’s been my personal experience that many ECs (most commonly converts from the Western Church) use every chance they get to denigrate the Western Church. Like it or not I believe their constant negativity is a product of insecurity leading to inferiority complexes.

Some will no doubt take issue with this but I have felt and observed inferiority complexes outside of the Church and their behavior is a dead giveaway.

Hi. I haven’t checked this thread in a couple days – I see that I missed much more than I thought.

This topic, sometimes called “Byzantine bitterness” is of course a difficult one. Let me just quote from the EWTN Q&A:

Question from andrew on 06-25-2001:
My question is: Why does there seem to be so much hostility toward Latin Catholics by SOME Byzantines? I’ve asked questions of Byzantines before, with no intention of offending, and have been met with sarcasm, anger etc.

Is does a great dis-service to your Church when certain members of it treat Roman Catholics like swine rather then brothers and sisters in the faith.

This in no way is aimed at you. You are doing a GREAT job!

**Answer by Anthony Dragani on 06-25-2001:
**Andrew,

What you are referring to is what I call “Byzantine Bitterness.” Some Byzantine Catholics have a great deal of resentment towards the Latin Church. This isn’t very widespread, but it does exist in some quarters.

To understand the source of this hostility, it is necessary to look at history. First, you will only find such bitterness in North America. This is because of the very real abuse that Byzantine Catholics suffered when they arrived here. Allow me to give you some historical background.

…

The large numbers leaving our Byzantine Church caught the attention of Rome. They realized that something had to be done fast. Thus, the Pope established a Byzantine Catholic hierarchy of bishops in North America. This angered many of the Latin bishops beyond belief. They were furious that they had to share America with Eastern Bishops. With our own bishops serving us, Byzantine Catholicism in the New World became more stable and secure. Nonetheless, the damage was already done. Families were painfully divided between Orthodox and Catholic lines. Legal disputes over parish property flooded the courts. And worst of all, we lost so many members that our Church became a gaunt shadow of its former self. Almost all of the Russian Orthodox and OCA Christians in North America today are descended from Byzantine Catholics.

Because of this horrible travesty, a great deal of animosity remained between Latin and Byzantine Catholics. This animosity lingered well into the 1960s. As recently as at Vatican II, a group of American Latin bishops attempted to have Eastern Catholicism banned in North America. Of course this attempt was quickly squashed. Instead, Vatican II went on to affirm the equal rights and dignity of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Since then things have dramatically improved.

Today the relationship between Latin Catholics and Byzantine Catholics is far better. Our bishops have a good working relationship. Unfortunately, a great deal of hurt feelings still remain.

In 1999 Cardinal William Keeler, on behalf of the Latin hierarchy, apologized to the Byzantine Catholic Church for the abuse we had suffered. This apology was very warmly received. Likewise, the current Archbishop of Minneapolis expressly apologized for the actions of his predecessor, Archbishop John Ireland.

Let us pray that all of the residual wounds from this dispute are soon healed. Some Byzantine Catholics are having a hard time forgiving. Instead, they are paralyzed with bitterness. It is my fervent hope that they will eventually learn to forgive.

God bless, Anthony

(The whole thing is to long to put in a post, but I encourage readers to read it here: ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=342700&language=en .)

 

[babochka]

Just to add a bit more to this thread…

I went to Stations of the Cross tonight at a Latin-Rite parish. Stations of the Cross is a private devotion and not liturgical, so not really the subject of this thread, but it was a beautiful service and a beautiful devotion. I haven’t been to Stations of the Cross in a number of years and I’m glad I went tonight.

 

[JuniperoSerra]

Hi. I haven’t checked this thread in a couple days – I see that I missed much more than I thought.

This topic, sometimes called “Byzantine bitterness” is of course a difficult one. Let me just quote from the EWTN Q&A:

Question from andrew on 06-25-2001:
My question is: Why does there seem to be so much hostility toward Latin Catholics by SOME Byzantines? I’ve asked questions of Byzantines before, with no intention of offending, and have been met with sarcasm, anger etc.

Is does a great dis-service to your Church when certain members of it treat Roman Catholics like swine rather then brothers and sisters in the faith.

This in no way is aimed at you. You are doing a GREAT job!

**Answer by Anthony Dragani on 06-25-2001:
**Andrew,

What you are referring to is what I call “Byzantine Bitterness.” Some Byzantine Catholics have a great deal of resentment towards the Latin Church. This isn’t very widespread, but it does exist in some quarters.

To understand the source of this hostility, it is necessary to look at history. First, you will only find such bitterness in North America. This is because of the very real abuse that Byzantine Catholics suffered when they arrived here. Allow me to give you some historical background.

…

The large numbers leaving our Byzantine Church caught the attention of Rome. They realized that something had to be done fast. Thus, the Pope established a Byzantine Catholic hierarchy of bishops in North America. This angered many of the Latin bishops beyond belief. They were furious that they had to share America with Eastern Bishops. With our own bishops serving us, Byzantine Catholicism in the New World became more stable and secure. Nonetheless, the damage was already done. Families were painfully divided between Orthodox and Catholic lines. Legal disputes over parish property flooded the courts. And worst of all, we lost so many members that our Church became a gaunt shadow of its former self. Almost all of the Russian Orthodox and OCA Christians in North America today are descended from Byzantine Catholics.

Because of this horrible travesty, a great deal of animosity remained between Latin and Byzantine Catholics. This animosity lingered well into the 1960s. As recently as at Vatican II, a group of American Latin bishops attempted to have Eastern Catholicism banned in North America. Of course this attempt was quickly squashed. Instead, Vatican II went on to affirm the equal rights and dignity of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Since then things have dramatically improved.

Today the relationship between Latin Catholics and Byzantine Catholics is far better. Our bishops have a good working relationship. Unfortunately, a great deal of hurt feelings still remain.

In 1999 Cardinal William Keeler, on behalf of the Latin hierarchy, apologized to the Byzantine Catholic Church for the abuse we had suffered. This apology was very warmly received. Likewise, the current Archbishop of Minneapolis expressly apologized for the actions of his predecessor, Archbishop John Ireland.

Let us pray that all of the residual wounds from this dispute are soon healed. Some Byzantine Catholics are having a hard time forgiving. Instead, they are paralyzed with bitterness. It is my fervent hope that they will eventually learn to forgive.

God bless, Anthony

(The whole thing is to long to put in a post, but I encourage readers to read it here: ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=342700&language=en .)

Thanks for the information. That “Byzantine Bitterness” (BB) needs to end sooner rather than later.

BB bothers me most when the bitter individual is neither BC nor have they ever been impacted negatively by the Western Church. Either they have read about past problems or they have listened to the complaints of others and they then need to take on their fair share of BB for some reason when they join a BC parish.

One thing I do absolutely know is that BB is holding back many ECs – at least in the USA.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks for the information. That “Byzantine Bitterness” (BB) needs to end sooner rather than later.

BB bothers me most when the bitter individual is neither BC nor have they ever been impacted negatively by the Western Church. Either they have read about past problems or they have listened to the complaints of others and they then need to take on their fair share of BB for some reason when they join a BC parish.

One thing I do absolutely know is that BB is holding back many ECs – at least in the USA.

Another thought …

I don’t know (and I don’t think it’s my place to try to say anyhow) if any of the things we’re talking about contributed to things getting a little heated on this thread earlier. But that aside, I think that, even in America, “Byzantine bitterness” is hard to find except on the Internet. There have been ECs on more than one Internet Discussion Forum who have been nasty to me for no reason (except maybe some guilt-by-association since I’m not ethnically Eastern) … whereas I’ve attended seven different EC parishes in my life, and never had a problem with the people at any of them – they had their disagreements, of course, but they were amiable disagreements.

 

[coptsoldier]

I like that the congregation participate more. Sometimes in the east it can feel like a spectator sport, unless you are in the choir or serving the altar