Ecumenical Councils and Eastern Catholics

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Alex,

be at peace. we use our tribal curia as interpreters not overseers. you eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood. You have eternal life in you. “morally bankrupt”? you express yourself better when you are not tired.

peace
Sorry if I come across as . . . tired! (Had a great night’s sleep though . . .)

This has to do with “church politics” and it is not wrong to call a spade a spade, from one’s perspective.

For the Vatican to keep on trying to “placate” the ROC at the cost of the UGCC and offending it and its struggle to maintain the Catholic faith - is that not morally bankrupt?

Are we not also called upon to call a spade a spade? We cannot remain silent when we see wrong. To do so would make us complicit in the wrong, or so my Catholic catechism taught me.

I apologise if I give offense and I will go on a hiatus from the forum for a while to regain composure.

Alex
 
Sorry if I come across as . . . tired! (Had a great night’s sleep though . . .)

This has to do with “church politics” and it is not wrong to call a spade a spade, from one’s perspective.

For the Vatican to keep on trying to “placate” the ROC at the cost of the UGCC and offending it and its struggle to maintain the Catholic faith - is that not morally bankrupt?

Are we not also called upon to call a spade a spade? We cannot remain silent when we see wrong. To do so would make us complicit in the wrong, or so my Catholic catechism taught me.

I apologise if I give offense and I will go on a hiatus from the forum for a while to regain composure.

Alex
Alex,

there are orders of magnitude between the knight and the knave even if they are properly suited. you have always been like a diamond in the ruff to me. my heart could not bear being clubbed by your silence. you give no offense.

peace
 
It was the West’s view of the stain of Original Sin that allowed, for the longest time, western Catholics, including Aquinas, to deny that Mary was conceived immaculately. The Roman Pope put an end to that debate in the 19th century. I would point out that the West’s point of view is De Fide (of faith) and catholics both East and West are not at liberty to disagree with it 'If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death…But this holy synod confesses and is sensible, that in the baptized there remains concupiscence, or an incentive (to sin); which, whereas it is left for our exercise, cannot injure those who consent not, but resist manfully by the grace of Jesus Christ; yea, he who shall have striven lawfully shall be crowned. This concupiscence, which the apostle sometimes calls sin, the holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood it to be called sin, as being truly and properly sin in those born again, but because it is of sin, and inclines to sin. and again ‘**If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,–whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation…’
**
Both clearly set forth the Western View of Original Sin which is markedly different from the eastern view as De Fide and anathemetize those who believe otherwise.

The same is true with the Dormition of our Lady, her being taken up into Heaven, body and soul, and her coronation as the Queen of heaven and earth (Trentcath at one point denied the Orthodox East believes the final point and he is completely wrong on that score).I believe we will find I retracted that statement

As for purgatory, the East uses the term “hades” as a place where souls not yet ready to be joined to the heavenly choirs are kept until prayers, especially the prayer of the Divine Liturgy (“Mass”), good works et alia are performed sufficient for them. And the Orthodox East prays most assiduously for the faithful reposed, daily, on Saturdays and on twelve separate liturgical occasions throughout the year. It is second to none in the department of prayer for the dead. As I mentioned before ‘Cleansing pains’ and not just the existence of somewhere where sins are cleansed is declared De Fide by the Council of Florence

As for the curia acting with the authority of the pope, the primates of the
EC Churches who share their church government with the pope (Decree on the EC Churches) have a much stronger claim to that authority than Latin curialists. Any problems that could arise would be referred to the pope himself etc.The point is that the pope being head of a church with 1.2 billion people needs to delegate and he has delegated to the curia, to dispute the various congregations etc… power is to dispute the powers of the pope

Again politics has no bearing on the actual institution of the curia


The eastern politicking of the Vatican with the ROC (in effect, “ostpolitik”) shows a grave problem that the Vatican has with respect to the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics where the Vatican is willing to set aside the legitimate growth and development of the EC Churches (i.e. the UGCC) for perceived “gains” in its ecumenical relationship with the ROC.I agree wholeheartedly, but thats Vatican politics not Dogma

But what are those gains that it has achieved via ostpolitik? What has been achieved by the Vatican in this respect? The answer is . . . nothing. Yet the Vatican curia continues to try and placate the ROC, especially by continuing to refuse to acknowledge what is already occurring within the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the existence of a patriarchal form of church government such as exists in so many other Eastern Churches, Catholic and Orthodox.

So, please forgive me if I in particular am not sympathetic to your cries for loyalty to a Vatican curialism that has proven to be morally bankrupt in this respect. Again Vatican politics I am defending the office of the Curia not the individuals that fill it nor am I asking for loyalty to the curia I am asking for loyalty to the pope who has seen fit to delegate to the curia

The UGCC has sufficient martyrs for Rome to not have to prove anything to western Roman Catholics. If anything, Roman Catholics who wish to triumph in their loyalty to Rome would do well to focus on their own fellow RC’s in North America to try and get them to “come back” to a similar sense of loyalty.Ah, if only it was so easy 😦

Alex
 
Thanks 🙂

So would it be possible to say that all catholics are Roman Catholics? The logic behind that being that they all profess the faith of Rome, are in union with Rome and accept it as the head of the church.
~98% give or take, of all Catholics in the world are Latin Rite Catholics. The other ~2% give or take, make up the other Catholic rites. All rites in the CC are of equal diginity regardless of numbers…

As I understand it, in EO, the RO inside Russia, are the majority of EO. As far as percentages/size of each compared to the RO maybe the EO here, can answer that.
 
TrentCath: The mother and mistress of all the church’s’ A rather significant phrase wouldnt you agree? Now a mother can hardly be said to be equal to their children and whilst a mother can exist without her children, the children cannot have come into existence without the Mother

Vico: Yes.


TrentCath: I’m not entirely sure its possible to seperate the Pope from his Church which is what you attempt to be doing here. The reason that he is the ‘Supreme Pontiff’ is because he is the Bishop of Rome and the successor of St Peter, to seperate him from the Roman Church and claim that it is he not the church that is universal seems very illogical to say the least.

Vico: The Bishop of Rome has roles with different powers, one universal, one for the Roman Church, etc. I am not sure what you mean by the phrase: "claim that it is he not the church".

TrentCath: I don’t particularly see how this in any way disproves my point.
*Vico: it is not an attempt to disprove your point.
*
I am simple emphasising that attempting to seperate the bishop of rome from the Roman Church is somewhat artificial, it is because he is bishop of Rome and therefore as Bishop of Rome that he exercise his universal, plenary and supreme primacy. It seems illogical to me to split him into two persons, one with powers exclusively for the Latin Church, the other with universal powers.
 
I am simple emphasising that attempting to seperate the bishop of rome from the Roman Church is somewhat artificial, it is because he is bishop of Rome and therefore as Bishop of Rome that he exercise his universal, plenary and supreme primacy. It seems illogical to me to split him into two persons, one with powers exclusively for the Latin Church, the other with universal powers.
But he does have multiple capacities - he acts in capacity as simply the Bishop of Rome acting in the interests of just the diocese of Rome, but by virtue of being the Bishop of Rome he is also the Patriarch of the West (regardless of whether he wants to the title), and has overseeingship over all Western dioceses outside of Rome - issuing their canon law, etc. And as Bishop of Rome he is also the Pope, the Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Christ, which has a universal implication.

He is a priest too. That’s a different capacity than his jurisdictional capacity as bishop. Every bishop has different “powers” or capacities relating to the different levels of Holy Orders he has been given, and if they are metropolitan bishops they have multiple jurisdictional relationships (archbishop over their own diocese, metropolitan or local primate over the other bishops in the province).

We’re not splitting him into two persons any more than we split Christ into two persons for having human and divine natures. You’re not a Monophysite are you…?😛
 
'If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death…But this holy synod confesses and is sensible, that in the baptized there remains concupiscence, or an incentive (to sin); which, whereas it is left for our exercise, cannot injure those who consent not, but resist manfully by the grace of Jesus Christ; yea, he who shall have striven lawfully shall be crowned. This concupiscence, which the apostle sometimes calls sin, the holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood it to be called sin, as being truly and properly sin in those born again, but because it is of sin, and inclines to sin. and again ‘If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,–whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. ’
Both clearly set forth the Western View of Original Sin which is markedly different from the eastern view as De Fide and anathemetize those who believe otherwise.
TrentCath, that’s what we call the “Eastern view” of Original Sin. The Eastern (mis)perception of the Western view is that original sin consists of inherited guilt - we inherited the sin or guilt of Adam. The statement you just quoted anathematized this view.

What we believe is that we inherited death, and that by taking death unto Himself and rising from the dead Christ overcame death and thereby restored us to life. “Christ is risen from the dead - by death He trampled death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life.”

The Theotokos was no different from the rest of humanity in that she was subject to death as well. But because she was completely sinless and free from all stain, her death would have been peaceful, and because she was “full of grace” as the New Eve there was no disparity between her being and her will, just as there had not been any for Eve - so she chose to die, in order to unite herself to her Son. This is what St. Dimitri of Rostov taught in his Menology.

Here is an explanation of the Orthodox teaching on the Immaculate Conception, by Fr. Lev Gillet, who wrote several books (Orthodox Spirituality and The Prayer of Jesus under the name “A Monk of the Eastern Church”, which became classical seminal texts in the 20th-century Orthodox renaissance):

byzypriest.com/?p=90

The difference between East and West on original sin is that the West deliberately refused to define whether the Theotokos died before her body was assumed into Heaven, though the vast majority of Roman Catholic theologians that she did choose to because of the fittingness of uniting herself to her Son in that way, and by Original Sin the East really is thinking more of death than of concupiscence. The East has never been Pelagian and never taught that we can become holy without God’s grace (there’s a reason we call it divinization rather than just “becoming holy”…)

The fundamental disagreement here is that you, like many Roman Catholics, have been adamantly pushing us to submit to and accept dogmas we never rejected to begin with, and treating us like heretics that we are not. You believe in the teachings of the Council of Trent? Very well, I applaud you; but we are not the heretics that Trent convened to condemn and so please do not treat us as if we were. The Pope is too busy to govern us? Then have you considered that, unless somebody screws up horribly, we are perfectly capable of governing ourselves, and since we actually understand our own affairs much better than a bureaucracy does. 22 sui juris Churches are relegated to a single Vatican office as if we were some sort of freak show or specialty jurisdiction, while ordinary plain old Roman Catholics have no single congregation for them. If we are actually regular plain old Catholics of equal status with Roman Catholics as Vatican II dogmatically affirmed, the congregation we are subjugated to in the Roman Curia needs to be disbanded.

And if you disbanded the congregation and let us actually govern ourselves, we would actually be governed instead of just filed away in an office and forgotten about. We’ve been waiting over a year for a new Metropolitan, without any sign that they’ve even given it any thought.

The Greek and Latin Churches are equal. If the Pope is too busy to govern us, then instead of subjugating four Apostolic patriarchates to some monsignor in Vatican City, he could just leave us alone, which is all we ever wanted.

Take our word for it that we accept the fullness of the Catholic faith and quit treating us like heretics. Our history is different from yours and we never went through the controversies that the West did. We have no need to comment on the Councils that do not pertain to us.
 
Dear TrentCath,

Then in fact we are in agreement and I take my hat off to you sir.

With respect to a number of other issues, I think you will find that there is much more agreement between RCism and Orthodoxy than not. Cecilianus has given an excellent account and so have you. The differences reflect Particular Church differences, not dogmatic ones.

Alex
 
But he does have multiple capacities - he acts in capacity as simply the Bishop of Rome acting in the interests of just the diocese of Rome, but by virtue of being the Bishop of Rome he is also the Patriarch of the West (regardless of whether he wants to the title), and has overseeingship over all Western dioceses outside of Rome - issuing their canon law, etc. And as Bishop of Rome he is also the Pope, the Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Christ, which has a universal implication. I just think this is illogical, if it is because he is the bishop of Rome that he has these universal powers then it is as Bishop of Rome that he exercises this authority. In other words he does not act in different capacities, rather in his capacity as Bishop of Rome he exercises supreme, plenary and universal jurisdiction over the whole world

He is a priest too. That’s a different capacity than his jurisdictional capacity as bishop. **Yes, but that doesn’t really come into the discussion…**Every bishop has different “powers” or capacities relating to the different levels of Holy Orders he has been given, and if they are metropolitan bishops they have multiple jurisdictional relationships (archbishop over their own diocese, metropolitan or local primate over the other bishops in the province).

We’re not splitting him into two persons any more than we split Christ into two persons for having human and divine natures. You’re not a Monophysite are you…?😛 Now, now don’t be silly, an sspx’er I might be, a monophysite not quite 😛
 
TrentCath, that’s what we call the “Eastern view” of Original Sin. The Eastern (mis)perception of the Western view is that original sin consists of inherited guilt - we inherited the sin or guilt of Adam. The statement you just quoted anathematized this view. I quote AGAIN, ‘If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema.’ with special emphasis on the words ‘…the guilt of original sin’ It’s clear therefore that the doctrine of the Church is that we inherit not only the effects of sin but also the sin

What we believe is that we inherited death, and that by taking death unto Himself and rising from the dead Christ overcame death and thereby restored us to life. “Christ is risen from the dead - by death He trampled death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life.”

The Theotokos was no different from the rest of humanity She was very very different but i’ll read your statement in contextin that she was subject to death as well. This is arguable and not a Dogma, it may be a tradition but it is not a dogma But because she was completely sinless and free from all stain, her death would have been peaceful, and because she was “full of grace” as the New Eve there was no disparity between her being and her will, just as there had not been any for Eve - so she chose to die, in order to unite herself to her Son. This is what St. Dimitri of Rostov taught in his Menology.

Here is an explanation of the Orthodox teaching on the Immaculate Conception, by Fr. Lev Gillet, who wrote several books (Orthodox Spirituality and The Prayer of Jesus under the name “A Monk of the Eastern Church”, which became classical seminal texts in the 20th-century Orthodox renaissance):

byzypriest.com/?p=90

The difference between East and West on original sin is that the West deliberately refused to define whether the Theotokos died before her body was assumed into Heaven, though the vast majority of Roman Catholic theologians that she did choose to because of the fittingness of uniting herself to her Son in that way, and by Original Sin the East really is thinking more of death than of concupiscence. The East has never been Pelagian and never taught that we can become holy without God’s grace (there’s a reason we call it divinization rather than just “becoming holy”…)

The fundamental disagreement here is that you, like many Roman Catholics, have been adamantly pushing us to submit to and accept dogmas we never rejected to begin with, and treating us like heretics that we are not. You believe in the teachings of the Council of Trent? Very well, I applaud you; but we are not the heretics that Trent convened to condemn and so please do not treat us as if we were. The Pope is too busy to govern us? Then have you considered that, unless somebody screws up horribly, we are perfectly capable of governing ourselves, and since we actually understand our own affairs much better than a bureaucracy does. 22 sui juris Churches are relegated to a single Vatican office as if we were some sort of freak show or specialty jurisdiction, while ordinary plain old Roman Catholics have no single congregation for them. **Perhaps thats because 16 million eastern catholics dont need 20 congregations whilst 1.2 billion ‘roman’ catholics do? I’d also point out that it is does not have complete jurisdiction over ‘Eastern Catholics’, the congregation for the doctrine of the faith and several other congregations as well as the Apostolic Courts also have jurisdiction. Realistically its no different to Traditionalist Catholics having an entire congregation (Eclessia Dei) dedicate to them, take it as a compliment not an insult.**If we are actually regular plain old Catholics of equal status with Roman Catholics as Vatican II dogmatically affirmed, the congregation we are subjugated to in the Roman Curia needs to be disbanded.

And if you disbanded the congregation and let us actually govern ourselves, we would actually be governed instead of just filed away in an office and forgotten about. We’ve been waiting over a year for a new Metropolitan, without any sign that they’ve even given it any thought.

The Greek and Latin Churches are equal. If the Pope is too busy to govern us, then instead of subjugating four Apostolic patriarchates to some monsignor in Vatican City, he could just leave us alone, which is all we ever wanted.No the pope couldnt, because to do so denies his universal, plenary and supreme jurisdiction

Take our word for it that we accept the fullness of the Catholic faith and quit treating us like heretics. Our history is different from yours and we never went through the controversies that the West did. We have no need to comment on the Councils that do not pertain to us.Seeing as you still wont accept Papal Supremacy and Infallibility as well as several other De Fide doctrines you clearly do
 
Dear TrentCath,

Then in fact we are in agreement and I take my hat off to you sir.** 🙂 claps and smiles**

With respect to a number of other issues, I think you will find that there is much more agreement between RCism and Orthodoxy than not. Indeed true but I believe the Church must reflect the fullness of the truth not just most of it Cecilianus has given an excellent account and so have you. The differences reflect Particular Church differences, not dogmatic ones. **Frankly I disagree but thats just the way of things I guess **

Alex
 
No the pope couldnt, because to do so denies his universal, plenary and supreme jurisdiction
C’mon - you seriously believe that the Pope cannot let the Eastern Churches elect their own bishops and promulgate their own canon law and liturgical norms as he did during the 1st millennium without committing heresy? That’s extreme to the point of ridiculous. Why do you feel that the Papacy is threatened by treating the East with equal dignity to the West? Is the Papacy that insecure?
Seeing as you still wont accept Papal Supremacy and Infallibility as well as several other De Fide doctrines you clearly do
I never denied, nor do I intend to deny, the teaching of Vatican I concerning the Papacy, nor any doctrines ever promulgated by the Holy See. If I said anything to give that impression, please refer me back to my words so I can retract them. But I’m pretty sure I didn’t.
 
I just think this is illogical, if it is because he is the bishop of Rome that he has these universal powers then it is as Bishop of Rome that he exercises this authority. In other words he does not act in different capacities, rather in his capacity as Bishop of Rome he exercises supreme, plenary and universal jurisdiction over the whole world
True, but the whole world is not the diocese of Rome - which was the only point I was trying to make. And the Pope may very well make diocesan decisions concerning the people of Rome that don’t affect any other diocese, as any bishop can. And likewise, he can make decisions that affect the Western Church (e.g., Canon Law) or preside over local synods of the Western Church that don’t affect the East. And there are times when he makes decisions that involve or relate to the whole Church.
 
I am simple emphasising that attempting to seperate the bishop of rome from the Roman Church is somewhat artificial, it is because he is bishop of Rome and therefore as Bishop of Rome that he exercise his universal, plenary and supreme primacy. It seems illogical to me to split him into two persons, one with powers exclusively for the Latin Church, the other with universal powers.
It is what is done in the canons, however illogical it may seem. Some powers are from being a diocesan bishop, others from the munus of Supreme Pontiff. One cannot say that any other bishops have the office of the Supreme Pontiff.
 
Inasmuch as the decrees of the post-schism councils are universal in nature, i.e. deal with issues affecting the whole Church and not just a particular issue in one place, they should be accepted in a future reunion. If the issues were only applicable to western churches then there should be no problem for the Orthodox to accept them since they’re irrelevant to its life. Surely we would agree for example to the conciliar teaching on the real presence (squabbles about terminology aside, we do believe the same thing, that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ) although it wasn’t debated in the east. Whether we consider the councils ecumenical or not is moot, the issue is whether or not its decrees are accepted as dogma. If you accept the that the Roman Church has a unique place of fatherhood in the universal Church, and the implications of that it implies regarding jurisdiction and infallibility (and I believe this would be necessary in a reunited Church), then you must accept its authority to convene councils and decree on matters of faith and practice. One reason I’m beginning to believe this must be true is that the Catholic Church has continued to call ‘ecumenical’ (the issue of the east’s participation not withstanding) councils throughout its history, whereas the Orthodox have been unable to do so. This is a strong testimony in favor of Rome in my opinion.
 
Inasmuch as the decrees of the post-schism councils are universal in nature, i.e. deal with issues affecting the whole Church and not just a particular issue in one place, they should be accepted in a future reunion. If the issues were only applicable to western churches then there should be no problem for the Orthodox to accept them since they’re irrelevant to its life. Surely we would agree for example to the conciliar teaching on the real presence (squabbles about terminology aside, we do believe the same thing, that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ) although it wasn’t debated in the east. Whether we consider the councils ecumenical or not is moot, the issue is whether or not its decrees are accepted as dogma. If you accept the that the Roman Church has a unique place of fatherhood in the universal Church, and the implications of that it implies regarding jurisdiction and infallibility (and I believe this would be necessary in a reunited Church), then you must accept its authority to convene councils and decree on matters of faith and practice. One reason I’m beginning to believe this must be true is that the Catholic Church has continued to call ‘ecumenical’ (the issue of the east’s participation not withstanding) councils throughout its history, whereas the Orthodox have been unable to do so. This is a strong testimony in favor of Rome in my opinion.
Well put! 👍
 
C’mon - you seriously believe that the Pope cannot let the Eastern Churches elect their own bishops and promulgate their own canon law and liturgical norms as he did during the 1st millennium without committing heresy? That’s extreme to the point of ridiculous. Why do you feel that the Papacy is threatened by treating the East with equal dignity to the West? Is the Papacy that insecure?

You misunderstand it is has nothing to do with the Papacy secure, insecure or otherwise. Rather it is because the ‘barque of the church has been commited to st peter and it is for him to guide it avoding the shipwreck of souls’. The fact is like it or not the Popes ‘Supreme, plenary and universal jurisdiction’ is De Fide, I therefore have no need to wonder whether or not the East will fall into heresy if it elects its own bishops, promulugates its own canon law and liturgical norms, rather I merely believe in the promise of Christ that ‘And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’ Therefore I simply believe.

I never denied, nor do I intend to deny, the teaching of Vatican I concerning the Papacy, nor any doctrines ever promulgated by the Holy See. If I said anything to give that impression, please refer me back to my words so I can retract them. But I’m pretty sure I didn’t.See above for one example for the rest I’d have to look over our VERY long but enjoyable discussion so I’ll pass
 
True, but the whole world is not the diocese of Rome - which was the only point I was trying to make. And the Pope may very well make diocesan decisions concerning the people of Rome that don’t affect any other diocese, as any bishop can. The problem is that the Pope could if he so desired make decisons about other bishops dioceses that don’t affect other dioceses, decisions about individual bishops or priests, as he has done on occassion regarding the child abuse scandal through apostolic visitations and so onAnd likewise, he can make decisions that affect the Western Church (e.g., Canon Law) or preside over local synods of the Western Church that don’t affect the East. And there are times when he makes decisions that involve or relate to the whole Church. This is true but ultimately it is as bishop of Rome that he makes these decisions either way, not as head of the Roman Church and head of the universal church. Therefore it would appear that Rome IS the universal church as it is by being Bishop of Rome that he acquires the right of universal jurisdiction.
 
It is what is done in the canons, however illogical it may seem. Some powers are from being a diocesan bishop, others from the munus of Supreme Pontiff. One cannot say that any other bishops have the office of the Supreme Pontiff.No, nor did I or anyone else ever say that so I’m confused as to how that even came up
I haven’t actually seen evidence that its done in the canons? And even if it were to be, ecumenical councils have more authority than canons.
 
I haven’t actually seen evidence that its done in the canons? And even if it were to be, ecumenical councils have more authority than canons.
CCEO 45
  1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office, not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.
  2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always united in communion with the other bishops and with the entire Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, of exercising this function.
  3. There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.
 
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