Ecumenical flattery?

[Peter_J]

I don’t know if this topic will spark much conversation, but I thought I would give it a try…

Do you think there is such a thing as ecumenical flattery, and if so what example(s) come most to your mind?

For example, I think Catholics (and Orthodox for that matter) tend to flatter protestants by writing “Protestants” with a capital P. It say flatter because it doesn’t really make sense grammatically, since “protestant” it isn’t the proper name of a group but rather an adjective that can be applied to many groups. (I would use a capital P if I said, e.g. “the Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church” or “Free Protestant Episcopal Church”, since then it’s part of a proper name. Likewise, in the proper name “the Armenian Apostolic Church” the word “Apostolic” is of course capitalized, but that doesn’t mean we capitalize “apostolic” when using it as a simple adjective.)

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I don’t know if this topic will spark much conversation, but I thought I would give it a try…

Do you think there is such a thing as ecumenical flattery, and if so what example(s) come most to your mind?

For example, I think Catholics (and Orthodox for that matter) tend to flatter protestants by writing “Protestants” with a capital P. It say flatter because it doesn’t really make sense grammatically, since “protestant” it isn’t the proper name of a group but rather an adjective that can be applied to many groups. (I would use a capital P if I said, e.g. “the Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church” or “Free Protestant Episcopal Church”, since then it’s part of a proper name. Likewise, in the proper name “the Armenian Apostolic Church” the word “Apostolic” is of course capitalized, but that doesn’t mean we capitalize “apostolic” when using it as a simple adjective.)

Well ‘Protestant’ was originally a pejorative, so I don’t know why you’d think it is used to “flatter” non-Catholics.

 

[runningdude]

It is a proper noun naming the broad movement. English capitalizes proper nouns. Other languages don’t. Flattery is not involved.

 

[Lisa1967]

I am a Protestant and I think the noun should be capitalized.

 

[MaryT777]

I am a Protestant and I think the noun should be capitalized.

I’m curious why you think it should be Capitalized? Anymore it seems most Protestants
“protest” the word Protestant.

 

[tabycat]

I use a capital P when writing Protestant for the simple reason that is, like Catholic and Orthodox, that it is a branch of Christianty.

 

[Monergistic]

I’m looking at this. www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm

I don’t feel particularly flattered by it, but that’s mostly because it wasn’t created with the intent of flattering me. It was supposed to be accurate, but it wasn’t supposed to be flattering.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I don’t know if this topic will spark much conversation, but I thought I would give it a try…

Do you think there is such a thing as ecumenical flattery, and if so what example(s) come most to your mind?

For example, I think Catholics (and Orthodox for that matter) tend to flatter protestants by writing “Protestants” with a capital P. It say flatter because it doesn’t really make sense grammatically, since “protestant” it isn’t the proper name of a group but rather an adjective that can be applied to many groups. (I would use a capital P if I said, e.g. “the Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church” or “Free Protestant Episcopal Church”, since then it’s part of a proper name. Likewise, in the proper name “the Armenian Apostolic Church” the word “Apostolic” is of course capitalized, but that doesn’t mean we capitalize “apostolic” when using it as a simple adjective.)

Are you referring to “flattery” or respect?

 

[JonNC]

I don’t know if this topic will spark much conversation, but I thought I would give it a try…

Do you think there is such a thing as ecumenical flattery, and if so what example(s) come most to your mind?

For example, I think Catholics (and Orthodox for that matter) tend to flatter protestants by writing “Protestants” with a capital P. It say flatter because it doesn’t really make sense grammatically, since “protestant” it isn’t the proper name of a group but rather an adjective that can be applied to many groups. (I would use a capital P if I said, e.g. “the Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church” or “Free Protestant Episcopal Church”, since then it’s part of a proper name. Likewise, in the proper name “the Armenian Apostolic Church” the word “Apostolic” is of course capitalized, but that doesn’t mean we capitalize “apostolic” when using it as a simple adjective.)

I usually do not capitalize protestant since I see it as an adjective.
So, should we capitalize holy and apostolic and catholic in the creed? Are they part of the name or adjectives describing the Church?

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It is a proper noun naming the broad movement. English capitalizes proper nouns. Other languages don’t. Flattery is not involved.

This

 

[Peter_J]

Hi everyone. Thanks for the replies – I was offline most of the day, but I’ve read them now.

I usually do not capitalize protestant since I see it as an adjective.
So, should we capitalize holy and apostolic and catholic in the creed? Are they part of the name or adjectives describing the Church?

Jon

Good examples.

Another example would be the word “orthodox”: I write it in lowercase if I mean it as a plain adjective (I’m an orthodox Catholic), but capital if I mean it as a proper name (chimo and ConstantineTG are Orthodox posters).

 

[Peter_J]

I use a capital P when writing Protestant for the simple reason that is, like Catholic and Orthodox, that it is a branch of Christianty.

Protestant applies to a few different branches of Christianity – Pentecostals, Baptists, Calvinists, and Methodists. Lutherans and Anglicans too, according to the thinking of most.

Similarly, the adjective catholic can be applied to a few branches of Christianity – Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

We use language to be understood. Language is certainly a battleground, but we ought to choose our battles wisely.

To some extent recognizing the name of something may lend it a sort of legitimacy, but this can be an unintended effect. If we stripped capitals from all erroneous movements, some phrases might become ambiguous, and finding references to them less convenient.

Why some terms are capitalized and others not, I don’t know. With a word like naziism, no capital is needed because it doesn’t mean something else without the capital. I suppose this is also true of Protestantism. But the term “Reformation” (which certainly qualifies for “flattering”) has more and different meanings without the capital.

 

[Indifferently]

Yes. The greatest act of flattery is always when a non RC refers to the RCC as the “Catholic Church”, not knowing that this is clearly a claim to that church’s universality.

 

[Monergistic]

Yes. The greatest act of flattery is always when a non RC refers to the RCC as the “Catholic Church”, not knowing that this is clearly a claim to that church’s universality.

When those same people refer to the EO as “Orthodox,” is that an equally clear claim to the right teaching of those churches in autocephalous union with one another?

And if someone like me tried to simultaneously “flatter” everyone on both sides of the Schism…boy, that would be a trick. Something tells me, though, that the only thing that would really come of it is me being told that Christ’s One Holy Apostolic Church isn’t really “in schism,” no matter how much I choose to capitalize That word.

So we’re looking at three words here- Catholic, Orthodox, and Schism. Is it possible to fully believe in the “claim” of all three capital letters? Two of three, perhaps, but I don’t know if many Catholics are likely to do any better than one out of three, and I feel like I could make an argument for “none of the above” far more easily than “all of the above.”

 

[ltwin]

Protestant applies to a few different branches of Christianity – Pentecostals, Baptists, Calvinists, and Methodists. Lutherans and Anglicans too, according to the thinking of most.

All of these are characterized by belief in justification by faith alone, primacy of scripture over tradition, and the priesthood of all believers. This is what unifies Protestants. So while there are things these would definitely disagree on, they do agree on this much. This sets them apart from Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Also, the Protestant retention of Nicene Christianity as found in the Creeds sets them apart from other movements like Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc, while giving them common ground with both Catholics and Orthodox Christians.

All of this together gives Protestantism a character that distinguishes it from the more “catholic” (to use your term) traditions, but it also sets them apart from movements that deny fundamental principles of orthodox Christianity.

There is not just an adjective, “Protestant.” There is also a noun, “Protestantism,” and it refers to a real branch of Christianity (albeit with many sub-branches) all proclaiming the fundamental doctrines of the Reformation.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t know if this topic will spark much conversation, but I thought I would give it a try…

Do you think there is such a thing as ecumenical flattery, and if so what example(s) come most to your mind?

For example, I think Catholics (and Orthodox for that matter) tend to flatter protestants by writing “Protestants” with a capital P. It say flatter because it doesn’t really make sense grammatically, since “protestant” it isn’t the proper name of a group but rather an adjective that can be applied to many groups. (I would use a capital P if I said, e.g. “the Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church” or “Free Protestant Episcopal Church”, since then it’s part of a proper name. Likewise, in the proper name “the Armenian Apostolic Church” the word “Apostolic” is of course capitalized, but that doesn’t mean we capitalize “apostolic” when using it as a simple adjective.)

I just checked two style guides (AP and Chicago). Both say it is spelt with a capital P. I’m not saying you don’t have a point (style guides aren’t an argument about how things should be done, they are a guide to how things may be done), but for those of us who have to follow these things religiously, it carries over into forum posting.

 

[Peter_J]

All of these are characterized by belief in justification by faith alone, primacy of scripture over tradition, and the priesthood of all believers. This is what unifies Protestants. So while there are things these would definitely disagree on, they do agree on this much. This sets them apart from Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Also, the Protestant retention of Nicene Christianity as found in the Creeds sets them apart from other movements like Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc, while giving them common ground with both Catholics and Orthodox Christians.

All of this together gives Protestantism a character that distinguishes it from the more “catholic” (to use your term) traditions, but it also sets them apart from movements that deny fundamental principles of orthodox Christianity.

There is not just an adjective, “Protestant.” There is also a noun, “Protestantism,” and it refers to a real branch of Christianity (albeit with many sub-branches) all proclaiming the fundamental doctrines of the Reformation.

I agree with most of what you’re saying here. But consider these three statements (whether or not you agree with them):
“The pope is orthodox.”
“The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church (including the Armenian Apostolic Church) are all apostolic.”
“Anglicans, Catholics, Orthodox, and Lutherans are all catholics.”

The lowercase writing of “orthodox”, “apostolic”, and “catholic” just means that I’m using the terms in-and-of-themselves, not as proper names. They’re still significant terms that distinguish some Christians from others – just as “protestants” (or “Protestants”) excludes Orthodox and Catholics, and also Mormons etc.

 

[ltwin]

I agree with most of what you’re saying here. But consider these three statements (whether or not you agree with them):
“The pope is orthodox.”
“The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church (including the Armenian Apostolic Church) are all apostolic.”
“Anglicans, Catholics, Orthodox, and Lutherans are all catholics.”

The lowercase writing of “orthodox”, “apostolic”, and “catholic” just means that I’m using the terms in-and-of-themselves, not as proper names. They’re still significant terms that distinguish some Christians from others – just as “protestants” (or “Protestants”) excludes Orthodox and Catholics, and also Mormons etc.

But you wouldn’t say “catholic” if you were describing something related to Roman Catholicism. Just like you would not say “protestant” when describing something related to Protestantism. It is a collective identity that actually means something. The meaning goes beyond religious categorization. There is a whole socio-cultural aspect to it.

 

[Peter_J]

But you wouldn’t say “catholic” if you were describing something related to Roman Catholicism.

Right. Likewise if I was talking about, say, the Protestant Reformed Church of Luxembourg, or the Free Protestant Episcopal Church, then I would of course capitalize “Protestant” in those names (just like I would capitalize “Free”).

And similarly, I would write “the Polish National Catholic Church”, not “the Polish National catholic Church”.