Ecumenical Plans for 500th Reformation Day

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EvangelCatholic said:
Lutherans believe that Martin Luther was called by God to reform the holy Church just as any Christian would do when faced with corruption.
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His response to this calling could have been much better (Think Catherine of Sienna).
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
His response to this calling could have been much better (Think Catherine of Sienna).
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Interesting that you mention St Catherine since she was a forerunner of the Reformation even though Luther referred to her as “crazy Catherine” for some of her other positions.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
His response to this calling could have been much better (Think Catherine of Sienna).
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Somehow… I don’t see Martin Luther wearing the same wedding ring that Catherine of Siena had. :o

The Lutheran standpoint is that reasonable reforms and questions were postulated and met with excommunications - as one man wasn’t isn’t powerful enough to split the church, only the church could do that itself.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Interesting that you mention St Catherine since she was a forerunner of the Reformation even though Luther referred to her as “crazy Catherine” for some of her other positions.
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Interesting you resort to this and not a cute picture of her.

In the end - she didn’t make another Church.
 
benjohnson said:
Somehow… I don’t see Martin Luther wearing the same wedding ring that Catherine of Siena had. :o

The Lutheran standpoint is that reasonable reforms and questions were postulated and met with excommunications - as one man wasn’t isn’t powerful enough to split the church, only the church could do that itself.
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It is much more complicated than that, ben. Martin allowed himself to be used by political interests at the time. In his anger - some of it justified - he just carried on.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Interesting you resort to this and not a cute picture of her.

In the end - she didn’t make another Church.
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Dr. Luther would claim that neither did he, and that the schism was caused by the Pope’s unjust (from Luther’s point of view) excommunication of Luther and his supporters.
 
Novocastrian said:
Dr. Luther would claim that neither did he, and that the schism was caused by the Pope’s unjust (from Luther’s point of view) excommunication of Luther and his supporters.
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Which depends on the view that Luther really was preaching the Gospel, and that by excommunicating him the Pope had excommunicated the Gospel.

If this is false, then the claim that Rome caused the schism is false.

If Catholicism is compatible with the Gospel, then Luther was guilty of schism. Period.

Edwin
 
EvangelCatholic said:
As a Lutheran with a strong Catholic identity, I have no regrets over the celebration of the Reformation though the feast day isn’t generally as celebratory as it was when I was a kid. Lutherans believe that Martin Luther was called by God to reform the holy Church just as any Christian would do when faced with corruption.

Okay…so how do you think reforms in the Church should be pursued?
The 95 Theses addressed the practice of purchasing indulgences as a way to avoid confession and absolution; it was so contrary to the Gospel that Lutherans left the Roman Catholic church and took nearly half of Europe with them [when including other Reformers
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History presents few characters that have suffered more senseless misrepresentation, even bald caricature, than Tetzel. “Even while he lived stories which contained an element of legend gathered around his name, until at last, in the minds of the uncritical Protestant historians, he became the typical indulgence-monger, upon whom any well-worn anecdote might be fathered” (Beard, “Martin Luther”, London, 1889, 210). For a critical scholarly study which shows him in a proper perspective, he had to wait the researches of our own time, mainly at the hands of Dr. Nicholas Paulus, who is closely followed in this article. In the first place, his teaching regarding the indulgences for the living was correct. The charge that the forgiveness of sins was sold for money regardless of contrition or that absolution for sins to be committed in the future could be purchased is baseless. An indulgence, he writes, can be applied only “to the pains of sin which are confessed and for which there is contrition”. “No one”, he furthermore adds, “secures an indulgence unless he have true contrition”. The confessional letters (confessionalia) could of course be obtained for a mere pecuniary consideration without demanding contrition. But such document did not secure an indulgence. It was simply a permit to select a proper confessor, who only after a contrite confession would absolve from sin and reserved cases, and who possessed at the same time facilities to impart the plenary indulgence (Paulus, “Johann Tetzel”, 103).

To give it to the confessor or indulgence subcommissary invalidated the indulgence (Paulus, op. cit., 76-77). The Tetzel indulgence chests exhibited at Jüterbog and other German towns, are counterfeits, according to the Protestant writer Körner (Tetzel’s Leben, 73). The latest Catholic biographer of Luther, Grisar, writes: “To ascribe to the unhappy monk the ‘cause’ of the entire apostasy that set in since 1517 . . . is an untrue legend” (“Luther”, Freiburg, 1911, I, 281).
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EvangelCatholic said:
Interesting that you mention St Catherine since she was a forerunner of the Reformation even though Luther referred to her as “crazy Catherine” for some of her other positions.
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So…Catherine of Sienna…a catholic saint…and who received the Stigmata…is crazy?

This is what Catherine did:ewtn.com/library/mary/catsiena.htm

Catherine wore herself out trying to heal this terrible breach in Christian unity (quite the opposite of Luther, isn’t it)

and to obtain for Urban the obedience due to the legitimate head. Letter after letter was dispatched to the princes and leaders of Europe. To Urban himself she wrote to warn him to control his harsh and arrogant temper.

This was the second pope she had counseled, chided, even commanded. (So…how can Catherine talk and command a pope without being excommunicated herself)

Far from resenting reproof, Urban summoned her to Rome that he might profit by her advice. Reluctantly she left Siena to live in the Holy City. She had achieved a remarkable position for a woman of her time. On various occasions at Siena, Avignon, and Genoa, learned theologians had questioned her and had been humbled by the wisdom of her replies.
 
benjohnson said:
Somehow… I don’t see Martin Luther wearing the same wedding ring that Catherine of Siena had. :o

The Lutheran standpoint is that reasonable reforms and questions were postulated and met with excommunications - as one man wasn’t isn’t powerful enough to split the church, only the church could do that itself.
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Do you think Luther had to no fault himself in being excommunicated?

So it was all the fault of the big, bad Pope?

If Luther had acted the same as Catherine of Sienna…do you think he would have been excommunicated?

ewtn.com/library/mary/catsiena.htm
Catherine wore herself out trying to heal this terrible breach in Christian unity and to obtain for Urban the obedience due to the legitimate head. Letter after letter was dispatched to the princes and leaders of Europe. To Urban himself she wrote to warn him to control his harsh and arrogant temper. This was the second pope she had counseled, chided, even commanded. Far from resenting reproof, Urban summoned her to Rome that he might profit by her advice. Reluctantly she left Siena to live in the Holy City. She had achieved a remarkable position for a woman of her time. On various occasions at Siena, Avignon, and Genoa, learned theologians had questioned her and had been humbled by the wisdom of her replies.
 
pablope said:
So…Catherine of Sienna…a catholic saint…and who received the Stigmata…is crazy?.
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St. Catherine of Siena (only one ‘n’) has a lot of virtues, but you do know about her wedding ring…

:eek:

From a Lutherans standpoint, it’s odd to say the least.
 
benjohnson said:
St. Catherine of Siena (only one ‘n’) has a lot of virtues, but you do know about her wedding ring…

:eek:

From a Lutherans standpoint, it’s odd to say the least.
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Well…you got my curiosity…what about her wedding ring story?

There is no mention of any wedding ring here:

When Catherine was twelve, her mother, with marriage in mind, began to urge her to pay more attention to her appearance. To please her mother and sister, she dressed in the bright gowns and jewels that were fashionable for young girls. Soon she repented of this vanity, and declared with finality that she would never marry. When her parents persisted in their talk about finding her a husband, she cut off the golden-brown hair that was her chief beauty As punishment, she was now made to do menial work in the household, and the family, knowing she craved solitude, never allowed her to be alone. Catherine bore all this with sweetness and patience Long afterwards, in , she wrote that God had shown her how to build in her soul a private cell where no tribulation could enter.

Catherine’s father at last came to the realization that further pressure was useless, and his daughter was permitted to do as she pleased. In the small, dimly-lighted room now set apart for her use, a cell nine feet by three, she gave herself up to prayers and fasting; she scourged herself three times daily with an iron chain, and slept on a board. At first she wore a hair shirt, subsequently replacing it by an iron-spiked girdle. Soon she obtained what she ardently desired, permission to assume the black habit of a Dominican tertiary, which was customarily granted only to matrons or widows. She now increased her asceticism, eating and sleeping very little. For three years she spoke only to her confessor and never went out except to the neighboring church of St. Dominic, where the pillar against which she used to lean is still pointed out to visitors.
 
benjohnson said:
Personally - dialog and encouraging my Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox friends.

Quote:
Historic Christianity? Does this include disobeying bishops, splitting altars…calling someone anti Christ?

Careful! It not just Lutherans that have sinned over the last 500 years.

!
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Just more thoughts…if others had sinned, why did Lutherans contribute to the sinning or add to the sins…🤷
 
benjohnson said:
St. Catherine of Siena (only one ‘n’) has a lot of virtues, but you do know about her wedding ring…

:eek:

From a Lutherans standpoint, it’s odd to say the least.
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pablope may know of this wedding ring thingy but I don’t. Do tell ben!!! (short version)

Peace!!!
 
adf417 said:
Would just any site be good?
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Couldn’t say. The story is that she had a vision of the Infant Jesus offering her a wedding ring, when she was about 19. This is depicted as a mystical marriage. Comparison is made to a similar story of St. Catherine of Alexandria.

There seems, in some accounts of the story, to be something unusual about the ring itself.

I welcome correction from those better informed.

GKC
 
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