Ecumenical Plans for 500th Reformation Day

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Which depends on the view that Luther really was preaching the Gospel, and that by excommunicating him the Pope had excommunicated the Gospel.
That isn’t one view, it’s two very very different views. Presumably the typical Lutheran (along with a large number of Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, etc) believes that Luther really was preaching the Gospel, but I’d be very surprised if the typical Lutheran believes that “by excommunicating him the Pope had excommunicated the Gospel.”

You probably remember Beorn asking whether “wizards count differently to other people”. I’m inclined to ask a parallel question: whether Episcopalians have a logic that is unknown to the rest of us? :ehh:
 
If Luther had acted the same as Catherine of Sienna…do you think he would have been excommunicated?
No, it’s just easier to point at the stick in the other’s eye when they see the log in mine.
 
pablope may know of this wedding ring thingy but I don’t. Do tell ben!!! (short version)

Peace!!!
Let me preface this with the fact that Catherine of Siena is considered by most Lutherans to be a saint, that said, you can see why this claim of hers would raise a few eyebrows.

He’res a good discussion on CAF about her wedding ring:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=486496

EDIT: The reason I even bring up St. Catherine’s wedding ring is because of the cry that Luther should have been more like her… you can see from a Lutheran standpoint why Luther probably would never have been able to complete emulate her even if he wanted to.
 
His response to this calling could have been much better (Think Catherine of Sienna).
So folks here, smarter than me, could explain if Catherine’s calls for reform would have influenced a revenue stream, or maybe correct my understanding that the indulgences issue was tied up in revenues.

Jon
 
So folks here, smarter than me, could explain if Catherine’s calls for reform would have influenced a revenue stream, or maybe correct my understanding that the indulgences issue was tied up in revenues.

Jon
I do not know…I have tried to do some research…looks like alot of it is legend:

If Tetzel was guilty of unwarranted theological views, if his advocacy of indulgences was culpably imprudent, his moral character, the butt of every senseless burlesque and foul libel, has been vindicated to the extent of leaving it untainted by any grave moral dereliction. These would hardly be worth alluding to, did not some of them have Miltitz as the source. But Miltitz has been so discredited that he no longer carries historical weight. “All efforts”, writes Oscar Michael, a Protestant, “to produce Miltitz as a reliable witness will prove futile” (Münch. Allg. Zeit., 18 April, 1901). “The circulated reports of Miltitz about Tetzel deserve in themselves no credence”, writes another Protestant author (ibid., 14 March, 1910).

Tried reading other sites…mostly protestants with very anti-catholic bents…so hard to sift through the facts.

From Jimmy Akin:ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

Second, indulgences were sold. At one time, for a period of perhaps two hundred years, it was possible to give a charitable donation to some cause, such as an orphanage or church building fund, as in which an indulgence could be obtained. This was no different than Protestant ministries offering something in exchange for a charitable contribution or “love offering” to a worthy cause. However, because of the scandal that Protestants produced, over four hundred years ago (shortly after the Council of Trent) the Church forbade charitable giving as a way of obtaining indulgences.

jimmyakin.com/2005/03/the_guy_who_did.html

Leo authorized the monk Johann Tetzel to offer (NOT SELL!) indulgences in exchange for charitable donations to the fund for building St. Peter’s Basilica.

Tetzel’s reportedly-overzealous preaching enraged Luther, who then launched the Protestant “Reformation.”

newadvent.org/cathen/14539a.htm

From July, 1510, to April, 1516, all traces of him were lost. It was his appearance as an indulgence preacher in 1516, to aid the construction of St. Peter’s at Rome (see MARTIN LUTHER), that thrust him into an undue prominence, invested him with an exaggerated importance, and branded him with an unmerited odium that only the most painstaking critical research is now slowly lifting. It was while preaching at Jüterbog, a small town outside of Saxony, not far from Wittenberg (where the indulgences were not allowed to be preached), that Luther in one of his most violent philippics in 1541 relates “many people at Wittenberg flocked after indulgences to Jüterbog” (Wider Hans Worst in “Sammtl. W.”, XXVI, 50-53), and then after much hesitation nailed the ninety-five theses on indulgences on the castle church door at Wittenberg, 31 October, 1517. That this preaching of the indulgences was not the primary and immediate cause that precipitated the promulgation of Luther’s ninety-five theses may be inferred not only from his subsequent course but also from the fact that the “Annales” of Jüterbog (Hechtius, “Vita Joannis Tezelii”, Wittenberg, 1717, 53 sq.) prove that Tetzel preached there as early as 10 April; that Luther in his letter to Archbishop Albrecht (October 31, 1517) admits that he entertained the thought for a long time to preach against indulgence abuses (Enders, “Dr. Martin Luther’s Brief wechsel”, I, Frankfort, 1884, 115); that Tetzel for several weeks had already been in the district of Brandenburg (Paulus, “Johann Tetzel”, Mainz, 1899, 47).
 
I do not know…I have tried to do some research…looks like alot of it is legend:

If Tetzel was guilty of unwarranted theological views, if his advocacy of indulgences was culpably imprudent, his moral character, the butt of every senseless burlesque and foul libel, has been vindicated to the extent of leaving it untainted by any grave moral dereliction. These would hardly be worth alluding to, did not some of them have Miltitz as the source. But Miltitz has been so discredited that he no longer carries historical weight. “All efforts”, writes Oscar Michael, a Protestant, “to produce Miltitz as a reliable witness will prove futile” (Münch. Allg. Zeit., 18 April, 1901). “The circulated reports of Miltitz about Tetzel deserve in themselves no credence”, writes another Protestant author (ibid., 14 March, 1910).

Tried reading other sites…mostly protestants with very anti-catholic bents…so hard to sift through the facts.
Was the Catholic Church in Rome receiving revenues from these kinds of activities, and were they being used for the building of St. Peter’s? It is what I have heard and read. Just wondering if it is true.

Jon
 
Was the Catholic Church in Rome receiving revenues from these kinds of activities, and were they being used for the building of St. Peter’s? It is what I have heard and read. Just wondering if it is true.

Jon
From Jimmy Akin:ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

Second, indulgences were sold. At one time, for a period of perhaps two hundred years, it was possible to give a charitable donation to some cause, such as an orphanage or church building fund, as in which an indulgence could be obtained. This was no different than Protestant ministries offering something in exchange for a charitable contribution or “love offering” to a worthy cause. However, because of the scandal that Protestants produced, over four hundred years ago (shortly after the Council of Trent) the Church forbade charitable giving as a way of obtaining indulgences.

jimmyakin.com/2005/03/the_guy_who_did.html

Leo authorized the monk Johann Tetzel to offer (NOT SELL!) indulgences in exchange for charitable donations to the fund for building St. Peter’s Basilica.

Tetzel’s reportedly-overzealous preaching enraged Luther, who then launched the Protestant “Reformation.”
 
Was the Catholic Church in Rome receiving revenues from these kinds of activities, and were they being used for the building of St. Peter’s? It is what I have heard and read. Just wondering if it is true.

Jon
This is really hard to prove one way or another, although the burden of proof is on the accusing party.

You would have to track down proceeds and compare it to expenditures. Even today with all the technology we have - it is difficult (not impossible) to demonstrate the “paper” trail.

Maybe a forensic accountant can chime in?
 
From Jimmy Akin:ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

Second, indulgences were sold. At one time, for a period of perhaps two hundred years, it was possible to give a charitable donation to some cause, such as an orphanage or church building fund, as in which an indulgence could be obtained. This was no different than Protestant ministries offering something in exchange for a charitable contribution or “love offering” to a worthy cause. However, because of the scandal that Protestants produced, over four hundred years ago (shortly after the Council of Trent) the Church forbade charitable giving as a way of obtaining indulgences.

jimmyakin.com/2005/03/the_guy_who_did.html

Leo authorized the monk Johann Tetzel to offer (NOT SELL!) indulgences in exchange for charitable donations to the fund for building St. Peter’s Basilica.

Tetzel’s reportedly-overzealous preaching enraged Luther, who then launched the Protestant “Reformation.”
Perhaps it was his “overzealousness” that lead the Reformers to think, “if it walks like a duck…”
It is what it is… and past. The sins of both sides ought not be celebrated, but perhaps joint recognition of the events can lead to greater efforts in repairing the rift. We can only pray.

Jon
 
This is really hard to prove one way or another, although the burden of proof is on the accusing party.

You would have to track down proceeds and compare it to expenditures. Even today with all the technology we have - it is difficult (not impossible) to demonstrate the “paper” trail.

Maybe a forensic accountant can chime in?
Was that “paper” trail, or “papal” trail? 😃

Just kidding.

Jon
 
Was the Catholic Church in Rome receiving revenues from these kinds of activities, and were they being used for the building of St. Peter’s? It is what I have heard and read. Just wondering if it is true.

Jon
Found one fact thought…courtesy of James Swan:

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/01/did-tetzel-really-say-as-soon-as-coin.html

Luther writing to Cardinal Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz said:
Under your most distinguished name, papal indulgences are offered all across the land for the construction of St. Peter. Now, I do not so much complain about the quacking of the preachers, which I haven’t heard; but I bewail the gross misunderstanding among the people which comes from these preachers and which they spread everywhere among common men. Evidently the poor souls believe that when they have bought indulgence letters they are then assured of their salvation. They are likewise convinced that souls escape from purgatory as soon as they have placed a contribution into the chest (LW 48:45, cf. LW 60:172).

newadvent.org/cathen/14539a.htm

An indulgence, he writes, can be applied only “to the pains of sin which are confessed and for which there is contrition”. “No one”, he furthermore adds, “secures an indulgence unless he have true contrition”. The confessional letters (confessionalia) could of course be obtained for a mere pecuniary consideration without demanding contrition. But such document did not secure an indulgence. It was simply a permit to select a proper confessor, who only after a contrite confession would absolve from sin and reserved cases, and who possessed at the same time facilities to impart the plenary indulgence (Paulus, “Johann Tetzel”, 103).

Are the indulgence letters the confessional letters?

It looks like it.
 
St Catherine of Siena is celebrated on April 29 among Lutherans. There are many churches named St Catherine but I think some are referring to St Catherine of Sweden, the daughter of St Brigitta; both buried in Sweden.

See how Lutherans and Catholic honor these holy women:
youtube.com/watch?v=1aMjfPD8tmg
 
In what way? Which Reformation?
Wikipedia
After this visit, she began travelling with her followers throughout northern and central Italy advocating reform of the clergy and advising people that repentance and renewal could be done through "the total love for God."
 
That isn’t one view, it’s two very very different views. Presumably the typical Lutheran (along with a large number of Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, etc) believes that Luther really was preaching the Gospel, but I’d be very surprised if the typical Lutheran believes that “by excommunicating him the Pope had excommunicated the Gospel.”

You probably remember Beorn asking whether “wizards count differently to other people”. I’m inclined to ask a parallel question: whether Episcopalians have a logic that is unknown to the rest of us? :ehh:
Sorry–I should have been more precise. I meant “that Luther was preaching the Gospel when he taught the things for which he was excommunicated.” Luther believed that his teaching on faith contradicted accepted scholastic doctrine, papal doctrines, and (after Eck drove the point home at Leipzig) the teachings of at least one Council (Constance). He believed that he could not recant these teachings because they were the Gospel. Not just one interpretation of the Gospel. Not just one person’s theological opinions. But the Gospel.

The validity of Protestantism, it seems to me, stands or falls on whether Luther was right in believing this.

And confessional Lutherans and Reformed do generally believe, in my experience, that the Council of Trent anathematized the Gospel. That is why they have historically taught that the Papacy is Antichrist and that the Catholic Church is apostate. Of course this view has been softened by moderate and liberal members of these traditions, as well as by other non-fundamentalist Protestants.

Edwin
 
Wikipedia
After this visit, she began travelling with her followers throughout northern and central Italy advocating reform of the clergy and advising people that repentance and renewal could be done through "the total love for God."
Yes. What does this have to do with the Protestant Reformation?

Luther would say that this was nothing but stinking filth, because no one can possibly love God totally.

Edwin
 
So folks here, smarter than me, could explain if Catherine’s calls for reform would have influenced a revenue stream, or maybe correct my understanding that the indulgences issue was tied up in revenues.

Jon
Certainly the importance Rome gave the matter was related to the financial issue. But the doctrinal reasons why Luther was finally condemned, and why the movement he spearheaded was ultimately unable to exist within the bosom of the Catholic Church, had little if anything to do with finances or even, per se, with indulgences (at least not directly).

From the Catholic point of view, what was most bothersome about Luther was his attack on the sacraments.

From Luther’s point of view, what was damnable about the hierarchical and intellectual establishments (two different bodies of people) of the late medieval Church was their failure to teach justification by faith alone.

In both cases, indulgences were a footnote, although an important one.

Edwin
 
Edwin (Contarini) this isn’t exactly a response to any specific thing you said; but after several of your posts on this thread I’m very much wondering: Do you consider the Episcopal Church (USA) to be “protestant”?
 
Edwin (Contarini) this isn’t exactly a response to any specific thing you said; but after several of your posts on this thread I’m very much wondering: Do you consider the Episcopal Church (USA) to be “protestant”?
Historically, yes. Confessionally, not really. We aren’t bound by the Articles, which are Protestant though relatively mild by sixteenth-century terms.

Also, I am not interested in defending the Episcopal Church, or even Anglicanism, except insofar as it is slandered in particular respects.

Edwin
 
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