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MonkMoses
Guest
Christ prayed that we all might be one…is that not something we ALL should be working for?
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Brendan_64
Guest
Your statement is a generalisation and is not correct, Personally speaking I do not know any Catholics who have become Protestant, on the other hand I know quite a few Anglicans (laypeople and clergy alike) who have become Catholic.
Having been involved in some ecumenical study groups at a local level, your view that the Catholics attending the groups tend to be more poorly catechised than their Protestant brothers and sisters is also not borne out in my experience.
The notion that we ought not to meet with our Protestant brothers and sisters for fear that they may evangelise and convert us is not a valid reason, and not borne out in reality.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Unitatis Redintegratio 1
“The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided.** Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature**”
We cannot simply accept that there are separate Christian Churches and communities, respect each other, and go our separate ways. We are called to work to reunite the separated Body of Christ on Earth. You can’t work to reunite if we don’t talk to each other.
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Pulvis
Guest
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
"Nevertheless, when there is a question of fostering unity among Christians, it is easy for many to be misled by the apparent excellence of the object to be achieved. Is it not right, they ask, is it not the obvious duty of all who invoke the name of Christ to refrain from mutual reproaches and at last to be united in charity? Dare anyone say that he loves Christ, and yet not strive with all his might to accomplish the desire of Him who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one” (John xvii. 21)? Did not Christ will that mutual charity should be the distinguishing characteristic of His disciples? “By this shall all men know that you are My disciples, if you have love one .for another” (John xiii. 35). If only all Christians were “one,” it is contended. then they might do so much more to drive out the pest of irreligion which with its insidious and far-reaching advance is threatening to sap the strength of the Gospel. These and similar arguments, with amplifications, are constantly on the lips of the “pan-Christians” who, so far from being a few isolated individuals, have formed an entire class and grouped themselves into societies of extensive membership, usually under the direction of non-Catholics, who also disagree in matters of faith. The energy with which this scheme is being promoted has won for it many adherents, and even many Catholics are attracted by it, since it holds out the hope of a union apparently consonant with the wishes of Holy Mother Church, whose chief desire it is to recall her erring children and to bring them back to her bosom. In reality, however, these fair and alluring words cloak a most grave error, subversive of the foundations of the Catholic faith.
Conscious, therefore, of Our Apostolic office, which warns Us not to allow the flock of Christ to be led astray by harmful fallacies, We invoke your zeal, Venerable Brethren, to avert this evil. We feel confident that each of you, by written and spoken word, will explain clearly to the people the principles and arguments that We are about to set forth, so that Catholics may know what view and what course of action they should adopt regarding schemes for the promiscuous union into one body of all who call themselves Christians."
Read H.H. Pope Pius XI encyclical here:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html
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Brendan_64
Guest
And there is nothing at all in that that contradicts what was declared in Vatican II in Unitatis Redintegratio which calls for us to engage in ecumenical dialogue with our separated brethren. There are of course very significant differences in theology between ourselves and our separated but we called to engage in ecumenical dialogue and the ecumenical movement. Vatican II embraced the ecumenical movement (previously regarded by the Church with suspicion) as “the People of God on the move” and integrated it into the eschatology of the Church.
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eyesopening
Guest
You put a lot more into my statement than I said.
You say “personaly speaking I do not know any Catholics who have become Protestant” Well, this is your personal experience and it differs considerably from my personal experience.
You say, “your view that the Catholics attending the groups tend to be more poorly catechized…etc.” I didn’t say that. I said that poorly catechized Catholics (as opposed to well catechized Catholics) are more likely to convert to protestantism. (The converse is also true I am sure.)
You say, “The notion that we ought not to meet with our Protestant brothers and sisters for fear…etc.” I also did not say that. The point of my comment was that this is a job for the better catechized Catholics who have the education and knowledge to properly engage with protestants.
Apparently your strategy of winning an argument is to argue against things that weren’t said!
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Brendan_64
Guest
But you didn’t state that this was an observation in your personal experience, you stated it as a fact. You stated that everyone knows a Catholic that has become Protestant, but that fewer know Protestants that have become Catholic. You are not speaking about what you have observed, you are stating this as a fact.
This taken in conjunction the sentence that followed it, where you clearly imply that more Catholics are converting to Protestantism, than vice-versa would suggest strongly that Catholics are more poorly catechised that Protestants (hence more Catholics converting to Protestantism than vive-versa.)
I’m not trying to win an argument, I’m simply disagreeing with the point of view expressed by yourself, as is my right. If it was an argument I would be trying to convince you, which I’m not.
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eyesopening
Guest
Yes, yes. Fine.
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Pulvis
Guest
Yes, i would regard this as suspicion:
Mortalium Animos
“4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.”
We shall agree to disagree as to the Merit of the ecumenical movement. Pax.
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godisgood77
Guest
Why bother? Simply because the Church teaches it.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Even though the Church has decreed that the ecumenical movement is the work of the Holy Spirit?
Even though the Church regards the view of the ecumenical movement as laid out in Unitatis Redintegratio as binding?
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/card-kasper-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20031110_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
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Sirach2
Guest
Brendan 64:
… the Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this ecumenical council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward the children separated from her. …] She opens the fountain of her life-giving doctrine which allows men, enlightened by the light of Christ, to understand well what they really are, what their lofty dignity and their purpose are, and, finally, through her children, she spreads everywhere the fulness of Christian charity, than which nothing is more effective in eradicating the seeds of discord, nothing more efficacious in promoting concord, just peace and the brotherly unity of all.
The Catholic Church, therefore, considers it her duty to work actively so that there may be fulfilled the great mystery of that unity, which Jesus Christ invoked with fervent prayer from His Heavenly Father on the eve of His sacrifice. She rejoices in peace, knowing well that she is intimately associated with that prayer, and then exults greatly at seeing that invocation extend its efficacy with salutary fruit even among those who are outside her fold.
Venerable brothers, such is the aim of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, which, while bringing together the Church’s best energies and striving to have men welcome more favorably the good tidings of salvation, prepares, as it were, and consolidates the path toward that unity of mankind which is required as a necessary foundation in order that the earthly city may be brought to the resemblance of that heavenly city where truth reigns, charity is the law, and whose extent is eternity (cfr. St. Augustine, Epistle 138, 3).
Loyal, faithful Catholics always align themselves to think and believe with the Mind of the Church. Anything less creates division and is not of faith.
That is true, Brendan, even from the call to the Vatican Council II, where Pope (Saint) John XXIII declared in his opening address:
… the Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this ecumenical council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward the children separated from her. …] She opens the fountain of her life-giving doctrine which allows men, enlightened by the light of Christ, to understand well what they really are, what their lofty dignity and their purpose are, and, finally, through her children, she spreads everywhere the fulness of Christian charity, than which nothing is more effective in eradicating the seeds of discord, nothing more efficacious in promoting concord, just peace and the brotherly unity of all.
The Catholic Church, therefore, considers it her duty to work actively so that there may be fulfilled the great mystery of that unity, which Jesus Christ invoked with fervent prayer from His Heavenly Father on the eve of His sacrifice. She rejoices in peace, knowing well that she is intimately associated with that prayer, and then exults greatly at seeing that invocation extend its efficacy with salutary fruit even among those who are outside her fold.
Venerable brothers, such is the aim of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, which, while bringing together the Church’s best energies and striving to have men welcome more favorably the good tidings of salvation, prepares, as it were, and consolidates the path toward that unity of mankind which is required as a necessary foundation in order that the earthly city may be brought to the resemblance of that heavenly city where truth reigns, charity is the law, and whose extent is eternity (cfr. St. Augustine, Epistle 138, 3).
Loyal, faithful Catholics always align themselves to think and believe with the Mind of the Church. Anything less creates division and is not of faith.
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QuestingKnight
Guest
As far as I can gather, what ecumenism meant meant here in the UK was rather nebuluous until Pope Benedict issued Anglicanorum Coetibus. He gave Anglicans a vehicle to cross over. I assume other branches of protestantism have no intenion of converting as a body.
I never understood what the point of all this ‘dialoguing’ was. My impression was that dialoguing for Catholic clergy meant trying to soft-soap non-Catholics. For liberal politicians and protestants it’s a means for them to convert us on whatever this Big Issue of the day is.
Thus, you get priests and even bishops who ave been wrong-footed on issues like contraception, women priests, sodomitic marriage and the like. They think the Church is going to change, any day now. Yep, it’s a-comin. And it doesn’t.
At the monent, what we need is a thorough conversion of Catholics to Catholicism. Many catholics and non-Catholics have bought into ‘modernism’; that ‘the Church will change with the times so my current sinning is no big thing’. They are ignorant (those that are not heretics). They need to be told the hard truths.
I never understood what the point of all this ‘dialoguing’ was. My impression was that dialoguing for Catholic clergy meant trying to soft-soap non-Catholics. For liberal politicians and protestants it’s a means for them to convert us on whatever this Big Issue of the day is.
Thus, you get priests and even bishops who ave been wrong-footed on issues like contraception, women priests, sodomitic marriage and the like. They think the Church is going to change, any day now. Yep, it’s a-comin. And it doesn’t.
At the monent, what we need is a thorough conversion of Catholics to Catholicism. Many catholics and non-Catholics have bought into ‘modernism’; that ‘the Church will change with the times so my current sinning is no big thing’. They are ignorant (those that are not heretics). They need to be told the hard truths.
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Brendan_64
Guest
A good place for many to start learning these would be in the documents of Vatican II, such as Unitatis Redintegratio, which tells us that the ecumenical movement is the work of the Holy Spirit, is irrevocable, and is the “Way of our Church”. I know there are indeed some within our Church that would find that a ‘hard truth’ to swallow.
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Pulvis
Guest
And His Holiness Pope John XXIII also, in the same speech said:
"There have elapsed three years of laborious preparation, during which a wide
and profound examination was made regarding modern conditions of faith and
religious practice, and of Christian and especially Catholic vitality. These
years have seemed to us a first sign, an initial gift of celestial grace.
Illuminated by the light of this Council, the Church – we confidently trust
– will become greater in spiritual riches and gaining the strength of new
energies therefrom, she will look to the future without fear. In fact, by
bringing herself up to date where required, and by the wise organization of
mutual co-operation, the Church will make men, families, and peoples really
turn their minds to heavenly things."
web.archive.org/web/20070808180613/http:/www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/j23open.txt
Those three years of preparation were discarded for a new agenda driven by those with a slightly different idea.
H.H. Pope emeritus Benedict XVI:
“The first occasion when this attitude was demonstrated was on the very first day. On the programme for this first day were the elections of the Commissions, and lists of names had been prepared, in what was intended to be an impartial manner, and these lists were put to the vote. But straight away the Fathers said: No, we do not simply want to vote for pre-prepared lists. We are the subject. Then, it was necessary to postpone the elections, because the Fathers themselves wanted to begin to get to know each other, they wanted to prepare the lists themselves. And so it was. Cardinal Liénart of Lille and Cardinal Frings of Cologne had said publicly: no, not this way. We want to make our own lists and elect our own candidates. It was not a revolutionary act, but an act of conscience, an act of responsibility on the part of the Council Fathers.”
“Everyone, as I said, came with great expectations; there had never been a Council on such a scale, but not everyone knew what to do. The most prepared, let us say, those with the clearest ideas, were the French, German, Belgian and Dutch episcopates, the so-called “Rhine alliance”. And in the first part of the Council it was they who pointed out the path; then the activity rapidly broadened, and everyone took part more and more in the creativity of the Council. The French and the Germans had various interests in common, albeit with quite different nuances. The first, initial, simple – or apparently simple – intention was the reform of the liturgy, which had begun with Pius XII, who had already reformed the Holy Week liturgy; the second was ecclesiology; the third was the word of God, revelation; and finally ecumenism. The French, much more than the Germans, were also keen to explore the question of the relationship between the Church and the world.”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2013/february/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20130214_clero-roma_en.html
“In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, L’Osservatore Romano, April 12, 2013)
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Sirach2
Guest
It really amazes me how often trads will cherry-pick what they want to hear and pull a point out of context to the entire article. Isn’t that *Protestantism? *Let’s read what . Benedict had to say in the rest of the document.
Likewise it indicates the foundation of dialogue, in difference, in diversity, in faith, on the unicity of Christ, who is one, and it is not possible for a believer to think that religions are all variations on a single theme. No, there is one reality of the living God, who has spoken, and there is one God, *one *incarnate God, thus one word of God, that is truly God’s word. But there is religious experience, with a certain human light from creation, and therefore it is necessary and possible to enter into dialogue, and thus to become open to one another and to open everyone to the peace of God, the peace of all his sons and daughters, the peace of his entire family.
Therefore, these two documents, on religious freedom and Nostra Aetate, linked to Gaudium et Spes, make a very important trilogy whose importance has been demonstrated only after decades, and we are still working to understand better the interlinked realities of the unicity of God’s revelation, the unicity of the one God incarnate in Christ, and the multiplicity of religions, by which we seek peace and also hearts that are open to the light of the Holy Spirit, who illumines and leads to Christ.
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bben15
Guest
If we “kept to ourselves” instead of instituting dialogue with other faiths, then there would be less converts to Catholicism. That is why be bother. 
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DebChris
Guest
We live in a multicultural world. St. Francis is often credited with saying “Preach always, and if necessary, use words.” People are won over more by our actions than by our words.If we “kept to ourselves” instead of instituting dialogue with other faiths, then there would be less converts to Catholicism. That is why we bother.
As a child, living overseas, I visited Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples along with my parents. We learned about the different religions in schools. [Contrary to public opinion this is not against current American law even today]. This in no ways means that I accepted Shintoism or Buddhism.
Dialogue always begins with respect. Those who asked my parents to sponsor their candicancy into the Catholic Faith based it on their observation of our family life. My parents were not theologians. They were simply Catholics who lived their faith in the world.
In one of his talks, Fulton Sheen talks about the importance of learning about different religions and faith communities, and what they teach. We begin with what we share in common without denying the differences that separate us.
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Sirach2
Guest
Very nice post, DebChris!
Here are some beautiful words from Pope Paul VI on the Closing of Vatican II I’d like to share. Many people have probably not seen them, but it summarizes the Council eloquently with a positive entreaty.
Your task is to be in the world the promoters of order and peace among men. But never forget this: It is God, the living and true God, who is the Father of men. And it is Christ, His eternal Son, who came to make this known to us and to teach us that we are all brothers. He it is who is the great artisan of order and peace on earth, for He it is who guides human history and who alone can incline hearts to renounce those evil passions which beget war and misfortune. It is He who blesses the bread of the human race, who sanctifies its work and its suffering, who gives it those joys which you can never give it, and strengthens it in those sufferings which you cannot console.
In your earthly and temporal city, God constructs mysteriously His spiritual and eternal city, His Church. And what does this Church ask of you after close to 2,000 years of experiences of all kinds in her relations with you, the powers of the earth? What does the Church ask of you today? She tells you in one of the major documents of this council. She asks of you only liberty, the liberty to believe and to preach her faith, the freedom to love her God and serve Him, the freedom to live and to bring to men her message of life. Do not fear her. She is made after the image of her Master, whose mysterious action does not interfere with your prerogatives but heals everything human of its fatal weakness, transfigures it and fills it with hope, truth and beauty.
Here are some beautiful words from Pope Paul VI on the Closing of Vatican II I’d like to share. Many people have probably not seen them, but it summarizes the Council eloquently with a positive entreaty.
Your task is to be in the world the promoters of order and peace among men. But never forget this: It is God, the living and true God, who is the Father of men. And it is Christ, His eternal Son, who came to make this known to us and to teach us that we are all brothers. He it is who is the great artisan of order and peace on earth, for He it is who guides human history and who alone can incline hearts to renounce those evil passions which beget war and misfortune. It is He who blesses the bread of the human race, who sanctifies its work and its suffering, who gives it those joys which you can never give it, and strengthens it in those sufferings which you cannot console.
In your earthly and temporal city, God constructs mysteriously His spiritual and eternal city, His Church. And what does this Church ask of you after close to 2,000 years of experiences of all kinds in her relations with you, the powers of the earth? What does the Church ask of you today? She tells you in one of the major documents of this council. She asks of you only liberty, the liberty to believe and to preach her faith, the freedom to love her God and serve Him, the freedom to live and to bring to men her message of life. Do not fear her. She is made after the image of her Master, whose mysterious action does not interfere with your prerogatives but heals everything human of its fatal weakness, transfigures it and fills it with hope, truth and beauty.
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maklavan
Guest
Many of the posts on this thread reveal a gross misunderstanding of the meaning of ecumenism,and some smell pungently of proselyting. If only people would only pay more attention to the teachings of Pope Francis. He has said that we must stop banging on about stale concepts and realise that the urgent need is to proclaim the good news that Jesus the Lord is the One for this world of ours.Stop dwelling on musty theology books and old arguments, and reach out to people who think as we do: They are called Christians.We need to work and pray with them and work on a strategy on how best to bring Christ to the Nations.The people are thirsty .They are hungry for the Word.They do not need to hear sterile arguments about who is right and who is wrong.
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