Ecumenism and pre-Vatican II dogma

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Feeneyites and their ilk repeatedly try to use Unam Sanctam and Cantate Domino to somehow invalidate the documents of Vatican II. Neither Unam nor Cantate is infallible under the rules promulgated in Vatican I.

John
 
THANK YOU!!! This helps immensly!👍

I understand what everyone is saying now. That all the categories of those listed who cannot be saved are those who choose separation. No Pope would ever contradict St. Thomas. I don’t know why I wasn’t getting it before. Thanks again.🙂
You’re very welcome.

Next time Eugene IVs papal bull is thrust at you polemically, you can say “Amen!! I believe it, in its proper context, as interpreted by the living magisterium of the Catholic Church.”

The proper context is that the sins of Schism and Heresy are indeed damnable sins, when all the conditions of mortal sins are present, that is, full advertence and perfect consent.

** St. Pius X **was no modernist of the so-called “counciliar Church”, and he likewise taught:
For a sin to be mortal three things are required: (1) Grave matter, (2) Full advertence, (3) Perfect consent of the will. (*Catechism of Pius X)
*
Furthermore, with regard to salvation of those who appear to be “outside the Church”, St. Pius X affirms:
Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

{Catechism of St. Pius X, The Ninth Article of the Creed)
Congruous with Eugene IV’s papal bull from the Council of Florence, the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms:
“Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.” (CCC 1859)
“anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.” (CCC 1864)
"they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846, cf. Lumen Gentium 14)
 
I’ll share my way of understanding why there is no conflict. I accept the truth of Pope Eugene’s statement that no one can be saved who does not abide in the Catholic Church. Now, we believe that the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. (Pope Pius XII’s “Mystici Corporis”; Ephesians 1:22)
We also believe that all who are in the state of Sanctifying Grace are united to the Body of Christ - which, on earth, is called the Catholic Church. So, all in the state of grace, are united in some way to the Catholic Church whether they realize it or not.

The big question is how is Sanctifying Grace is received. The normal means is through the Sacraments

CCC #1257 “…The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” *God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. *”

As to who (Catholic or non-Catholic) is in this state of grace, only God knows.

So, Pope Eugene’s declaration is true; but there has been further development and understanding of the fullness of its meaning.

Nita
Hi,
Okay, I think I had it straight for a minute there after the St. Thomas quotes, but now I’m still struggling.

So are you saying Pope Eugene and all the previous Popes were wrong and that the Mystical Body of Christ actually includes everyone in a state of Grace, regardless of beliefs? If this is how we now understand the Mystical Body, doesn’t it sort of undermine the necessity of the visible Church and Her Sacraments? Didn’t Jesus say “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.”?

If they’re already in a state of Grace without the Eucharist or the visible Church, how do you convince them conversion is necessary? In fact, couldn’t evangelizing to them be a potentially bad thing for them? After all, if you inform them of the fullness of truth and they reject it, then they’ll lose that state of Grace. Do you see what I’m saying?
 
You’re very welcome.

Next time Eugene IVs papal bull is thrust at you polemically, you can say “Amen!! I believe it, in its proper context, as interpreted by the living magisterium of the Catholic Church.”

The proper context is that the sins of Schism and Heresy are indeed damnable sins, when all the conditions of mortal sins are present, that is, full advertence and perfect consent.

** St. Pius X **was no modernist of the so-called “counciliar Church”, and he likewise taught:
Furthermore, with regard to salvation of those who appear to be “outside the Church”, St. Pius X affirms:
Congruous with Eugene IV’s papal bull from the Council of Florence, the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms:
Thank you once again for more great quotes. This stuff is so delicate and subtle. I feel like I’m watching a Papal tennis match! Looks like it’s a tie!
:tiphat:
 
Hi,
Okay, I think I had it straight for a minute there after the St. Thomas quotes, but now I’m still struggling.

So are you saying Pope Eugene and all the previous Popes were wrong and that the Mystical Body of Christ actually includes everyone in a state of Grace, regardless of beliefs? If this is how we now understand the Mystical Body, doesn’t it sort of undermine the necessity of the visible Church and Her Sacraments? Didn’t Jesus say “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.”?

If they’re already in a state of Grace without the Eucharist or the visible Church, how do you convince them conversion is necessary? In fact, couldn’t evangelizing to them be a potentially bad thing for them? After all, if you inform them of the fullness of truth and they reject it, then they’ll lose that state of Grace. Do you see what I’m saying?
I would say that one may appear to man as “outside the Church” because they lack explicit faith in Christ, but what may appear true to us may be in fact different in the eyes of God…

St. Thomas, for example, affirms that God reveals what is necessary for salvation in many various ways:
“If a man born among barbarian nations, does what he can, God Himself will show him what is necessary for salvation, either by inspiration or sending a teacher to him.” (Sent. 11, 28, Q. 1, A. 4, ad 4).
Thus, who you and I may think a barbarian, may in fact be joined to the Catholic Church extra-sacramentally in the eyes of God.

Moreover, St. Thomse admits that those who may not have received any explicit revelation of the mysteries of Christ, they too might be saved by their implicit faith in Christ. Observe:
If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation [of the mystery of Christ], they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him [Christ] explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith [in Christ] through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth (*Summa Theologica, *IIb, 2, 7)
Thus, one is not saved by being merely ignorant, or by being naturally good. One must have supernatural FAITH given to him by God, which manifest itself in supernatural CHARITY. One may be joined to the Church, even if that supernatural FAITH remains merely implicit, a “certain unconscious desire” to be joined to the Church.

That’s precisely why Lumen Gentium par. 16 cites the following from Holy Office approved by Pius XII…
God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God….But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): “Faith is the beginning of man’s salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children” (Denzinger, n. 801).”


 
I would say that one may appear to man as “outside the Church” because they lack explicit faith in Christ, but what may appear true to us may be in fact different in the eyes of God…

St. Thomas, for example, affirms that God reveals what is necessary for salvation in many various ways:

Thus, who you and I may think a barbarian, may in fact be joined to the Catholic Church extra-sacramentally in the eyes of God.

Moreover, St. Thomse admits that those who may not have received any explicit revelation of the mysteries of Christ, they too might be saved by their implicit faith in Christ. Observe:

Thus, one is not saved by being merely ignorant, or by being naturally good. One must have supernatural FAITH given to him by God, which manifest itself in supernatural CHARITY. One may be joined to the Church

That’s precisely why Lumen Gentium par. 16 cites the following from Holy Office approved by Pius XII…


Brilliant.
St. Thomas Aquinas, please pray for me!
I know not what is what!

😃
 
"they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846, cf. Lumen Gentium 14)

I guess one question I’ve always had about this quote is: who possibly meets these conditions? No sane person, if he truly believed and knew that the Catholic Church was necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter it or remain in it. Such a person would have to want to go to Hell, and then he’d probably be considered insane, which mitigates culpability. Does such a position, then, not admit of a universalist approach to salvation?
 
"they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846, cf. Lumen Gentium 14)

I guess one question I’ve always had about this quote is: who possibly meets these conditions?
There are many who are seemingly ignorant of the truth that the Catholic Church is indeed founded by Christ as necessary for salvation. Saul was at one point among these, a persecutor of Christians. But as Scripture tells us, he did so out of ignorance. Was his ignorance invincible? Not likely, as he did eventually overcome his ignorance, right? So the ignorance that Saul had was at least vincible, that is, at least partly his own fault, partly voluntary, and therefore, to the extent that it was partly voluntary he was also partly culpable. While there might have been a lack of knowledge, that lack of knowledge was not unconquerable. How culpable was his ignorance? It’s difficult to say, but I trust God knows perfectly what we can only guess at.

Consequently, I don’t think it is prudent for the faithful to presume that ignorance of Christ is non-culpable. In fact, we ought to presume the opposite, that they are enslaved in their sin and are in need of Gospel Truth. While we can pray, as Jesus did, that Almighty Father forgive them as they know not what they do, that doesn’t negate our solemn duty to teach the Gospel Truth as Christ Himself taught it.

Only God knows the extent of the voluntariness of human ignorance. For ignorance to be completely non-voluntary would indeed be rare in adults, perhaps only in the very “simple minded.”

Nonetheless, an “affected” ignorance that is completely voluntary is also completely culpable.

It seem that for the most part, ignorance is at least partly voluntary, as it results from sloth or pride or many other dishonorable and selfish influences. We do our brethren no favor by not teaching them the true doctrines of Christ. In fact, according to St. Pius X, there is likely to be a “great loss of souls due solely to ignorance of divine things***.***” St. Pius X’s encyclical on Teaching Christian Doctrine Acerbo Nimis, 1905). Thus, ignorance is not a “get out of hell free card” as some may erroneously think.

Furthermore, there are no doubt many sins which occur apart from any consideration of a lack of knowledge, that is, with eyes wide-open, as was the case of the fall of angels. Moreover, Adam and Eve, no doubt, had the knowledge that they would die if they ate of the forbidden fruit. They ate it with eyes wide-open, not because of ignorance, but because they didn’t trust God’s word, and placed their trust in what the serpent said instead.

Cain was even given a supernatural message from God, a warning that sin is crouching at his door and that he must master sin. He was given sufficient knowledge to know right from wrong, but he freely chose wrong despite having recieved God’s warning. So it seems sin is not always due to a lack of sufficient knowledge.

Yet, only God knows whom he has predestined to be among his elect, and whom he will judge to be among the non-elect. Our job is to know Him, love Him, and serve Him–not judge who will and who will not be in heaven. What God’s final judgement for me and for others I leave entirely up to Him.

In serving the Lord, I must “Evangelize all men” (CCC 848), without presuming that ignorance is non-culpable. We can pray and have hope that Christ lead all souls to heaven, but we may never presume it.
 
"they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846, cf. Lumen Gentium 14)

I guess one question I’ve always had about this quote is: who possibly meets these conditions? No sane person, if he truly believed and knew that the Catholic Church was necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter it or remain in it. Such a person would have to want to go to Hell, and then he’d probably be considered insane, which mitigates culpability. Does such a position, then, not admit of a universalist approach to salvation?
My problem is not what the documents are saying, as dave seems to have helped clear that up. But the way which they have been applied and interpreted has lead to quite a bit of spiritual relativism. Many people have adopted an “I’m okay, you’re okay” mentality about the need for conversion. As I said earlier, many would even believe now that conversion to the visible Church is not really necessary and that as humans we’re all united and just don’t know it. Some priests even turn away those who wish to join the Church and tell them to just go and “be good Protestants” or “be good Buddhists”.

As a previous poster mentioned, for many the Body of Christ seems to no longer be viewed strictly as the members of the visible Church, but is made up of all who seek God. It’s common even among religious to believe we as Catholics have much to learn from the world’s religions! This is why so many have left the Church in recent decades and become Protestants, Buddhists, New Age, etc. Progressive clergy have made it sound like there’s nothing really wrong with Buddhism or Hinduism, or Protestantism, and in fact give them much praise. This leads many sheep to eventually leave the Church and all its “rules” for what they see as a more “liberating” spiritual, liturgical, or contemplative experience.

The Church never erred in her official teaching, but progressive shepherds are leading the flock astray through a wrong interpretation of ecumenism.😦
 
Dave,

Wow, thanks for the response. I honestly can’t think of any objections. I only wish that more Catholics (priests especially) would realize, within the context of documents such as Lumen Gentium, that evangelization and conversion is as necessary now as it was 2000 years ago. I also know what you mean about the prevalence of relativism, DesertBrother. When I was first inquiring about Catholicism, I asked a priest these same questions, and his response was that “we shouldn’t try to convert others”; a sentiment that, it seems to me, is an injustice both to those who are in need of conversion and those who died trying to spread the Gospel of Christ.

God bless,

Chris
 
I really want to agree with you, but I still don’t see how you can say there’s been no change.

“No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)"

and now:

Lumen Gentium" (1964):
5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

I have no agenda, and I believe in Infalliblity. I genuinely want to know how the teachings are the same.
I hope people like Dave have cleared up your questions.
I personally have not read Cantate Domino (I cant find it online) but I bet it would make such a distinction between ignorance and willfully separating oneself. It should be clear from works like Quanto Conficiamur by Pius IX that such a distinction IS made and yet those radtrads dont tell you about them or themselves are ignorant of what it says. Further there are infallible decrees such as:
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the baptism which is even given by heretics in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church doth, is not true baptism; let him be anathema.
(Council of Trent, Session 7-Decree on Baptism)
This infallible teachings is very clear that Baptism by heretical groups (eg Protestants) IS VALID. From this it is clear the Catholic Church recognizes such people are united to the Catholic Church in a special (yet imperfect) way even if its not within the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church. This is something that radtrads wont point out either. The fact is it is blatant deception and ignorance to push the case that the post VII Church made this stuff up.
My problem is not what the documents are saying, as dave seems to have helped clear that up. But the way which they have been applied and interpreted has lead to quite a bit of spiritual relativism. Many people have adopted an “I’m okay, you’re okay” mentality about the need for conversion. As I said earlier, many would even believe now that conversion to the visible Church is not really necessary and that as humans we’re all united and just don’t know it. Some priests even turn away those who wish to join the Church and tell them to just go and “be good Protestants” or “be good Buddhists”.

As a previous poster mentioned, for many the Body of Christ seems to no longer be viewed strictly as the members of the visible Church, but is made up of all who seek God. It’s common even among religious to believe we as Catholics have much to learn from the world’s religions! This is why so many have left the Church in recent decades and become Protestants, Buddhists, New Age, etc. Progressive clergy have made it sound like there’s nothing really wrong with Buddhism or Hinduism, or Protestantism, and in fact give them much praise. This leads many sheep to eventually leave the Church and all its “rules” for what they see as a more “liberating” spiritual, liturgical, or contemplative experience.
This is all sad but true. Thankfully I have not encountered any of these priests but from what I have heard they are out there. And this is part of the radtrad backlash in the first place, their anger didnt form in a vacuum. I agree such relativism is dangerous and unacceptable and there needs to be clear warnings/penalties from Rome to stop it. I believe there is a change starting to emerge now with a generation of young faithful Catholics who are striving to be the best Christians they can be.
The Church never erred in her official teaching, but progressive shepherds are leading the flock astray through a wrong interpretation of ecumenism.😦
Thats a fact of life we have to accept, Jesus and other parts of Scripture are very clear that there will be bad teachers who lead people astray and that many scandals would arise shaking our faith. Our duty is to trust the Church and persevere in our faith.
 
I hope people like Dave have cleared up your questions.
Yes indeed. Thank you.
This is all sad but true. Thankfully I have not encountered any of these priests but from what I have heard they are out there. And this is part of the radtrad backlash in the first place, their anger didnt form in a vacuum. I agree such relativism is dangerous and unacceptable and there needs to be clear warnings/penalties from Rome to stop it. I believe there is a change starting to emerge now with a generation of young faithful Catholics who are striving to be the best Christians they can be.
Thats a fact of life we have to accept, Jesus and other parts of Scripture are very clear that there will be bad teachers who lead people astray and that many scandals would arise shaking our faith. Our duty is to trust the Church and persevere in our faith.
:amen:
 
It’s good for people on both extremes to read Quanto Conficiamur Moerore. The “traditionalists” falsely so-called use the Syllabus without its background tradition. Very slick.

Modernists use Unitatis Redintegratio without all of its background tradition. More obviously false, but with similar outcomes.

At the official levels of Ecumenism, I know that we stand firm on Catholic teaching. We tend to be more flexible in our ability to discuss issues, but that is what one is blessed with when you have as rich of an intellectual and spiritual foundation that Catholicism has. For instance, many protestants will just glaze over if we start using our Catholic words like “transubstantiation” or “infallibility” because they have been fed strawman explanations of our doctrines. To some, “transubstantiation” equals “magic” and they can’t seem to get past the 16th Century misconceptions and misinformation their founders imposed on them

We often hear all sorts of warm n’ fuzzies from the media about Ecumenism, but that is not really what is happening. There has been no change, the Church maintains Her traditional understanding of Ecumenism in terms of a process of re-union with Rome as its final end .
Please tell that to Walter Kasper.
 
(cont 2 of 2)
Their “concerns” are usually nothing more than trying to explain why the Church is in the shape its in today. Instead of recognizing the problems today are more about cultural decline they mistakenly and gravely think the Church has taught error.

If you believe the Church has officially taught error then your not Catholic. Catholics believe in infallibility and that despite how bad the situation might look we believe God has preserved and will always preserve the Church from error.
.
CatholicDude,

I was deeply disturbed that I had been questioning VII after you made these statements, thinking I was in grave sin. However, after more researching, I’ve come across articles such as these that state VII was not unchangeable dogma, and there’s nothing wrong with questioning it. This is not a radical website either (catholicapologetics.info). I was wondering if you’d mind reading this article and telling me what you think?

Here’s an excerpt:

Pope Paul VI made it clear in a public audience of January 12th, 1966 that the decrees of Vatican II were never stamped with the note of infallibility as he openly declared:

“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.” (General Audience, December 1, 1966, published in the L’Osservatore Romano 1/21/1966)

Catholics are, therefore, within their rights to make reservations regarding any novelties emanating from Vatican II that are out of step with Sacred Tradition and the previous (continuous) Magisterium of the Church. Vatican II unlike previous Church Councils, did not pretend to bolster the faith of the faithful by means of clarifying those unchangeable truths of the Catholic faith,

It must not be mistaken that since the council was attended and called by the Pope that it would automatically be lead by the Holy Ghost or that it automatically is guaranteed to be infallibility of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium since only the definitions and condemnations of an ecumenical council are guaranteed by infallibility and not (necessarily) its pastoral exhortations, the Church does not hold as infallible in a council whatever is outside the solemn teachings. [5]

I thought this was interesting too:

It is canonically possible for a future pope to annul the outcome of the council, as it was merely a pastoral council. Cardinal Ratzinger affirms the same saying that " Not all valid councils, after being tested by the facts of history, have shown themselves to be useful councils; in the final analysis, all that was left of some was a great nothing." [12]

Here’s the whole article:

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatican.htm

I’d appreciate any comments anyone might have on this.
 
CatholicDude,

I was deeply disturbed that I had been questioning VII after you made these statements, thinking I was in grave sin. However, after more researching, I’ve come across articles such as these that state VII was not unchangeable dogma, and there’s nothing wrong with questioning it. This is not a radical website either (catholicapologetics.info). I was wondering if you’d mind reading this article and telling me what you think?
I never meant to say you were in grave sin. What I said was that those pushing the notion that the post-VII Church isnt the same as the pre-VII Church (including some who deny the last few popes) they are the ones in grave sin because they have used deception (eg “contradictory” quotes) to “show” people the Church has “fallen into error”.
Here’s an excerpt:
Pope Paul VI made it clear in a public audience of January 12th, 1966 that the decrees of Vatican II were never stamped with the note of infallibility as he openly declared:
“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.” (General Audience, December 1, 1966, published in the L’Osservatore Romano 1/21/1966)
Catholics are, therefore, within their rights to make reservations regarding any novelties emanating from Vatican II that are out of step with Sacred Tradition and the previous (continuous) Magisterium of the Church. Vatican II unlike previous Church Councils, did not pretend to bolster the faith of the faithful by means of clarifying those unchangeable truths of the Catholic faith,
Both of the above parts in red are not accurate.

Just because VII didnt define new dogma doesnt mean it taught error (ie under the guise of “novelties…out of step with Tradition”) and most especially doesnt mean your free to “have your reservations”. It was a valid council ratified by the Pope and therefore requires our assent that its teachings to be true.

Second, the idea of “unlike previous councils” is not accurate either. VII was ALL ABOUT clarifying those “unchangeable truths”, infact more documents were produced at VII than at any previous councils.
It must not be mistaken that since the council was attended and called by the Pope that it would automatically be lead by the Holy Ghost or that it automatically is guaranteed to be infallibility of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium since only the definitions and condemnations of an ecumenical council are guaranteed by infallibility and not (necessarily) its pastoral exhortations, the Church does not hold as infallible in a council whatever is outside the solemn teachings. [5]
What IS mistaken here is that the Pope called and ratified the Council which leaves NO grounds for the average joe Catholic to say “It must not be mistaken that since it was called by the Pope it would be free from error”. Catholics have no room to make such assumptions. It should be very clear that just because there isnt the stamp of infallibility doesnt mean it doesnt require our assent, many of the Papal encyclicals dont have (and dont have to have) such formal “stamps” yet they are still binding on Catholics.
I thought this was interesting too:
It is canonically possible for a future pope to annul the outcome of the council, as it was merely a pastoral council. Cardinal Ratzinger affirms the same saying that " Not all valid councils, after being tested by the facts of history, have shown themselves to be useful councils; in the final analysis, all that was left of some was a great nothing." [12]
There have been multiple threads on the false notion of “pastoral council”, as if what it taught was merely a “friendly suggestion”.
Use the search bar to find the threads.
Here’s the whole article:
I’d appreciate any comments anyone might have on this.
That webpage is hosted by radtrads, they have articles explicitly saying things like VII taugh heresy. It uses a lot of half quotes and misunderstandings to paint the Church in a bad/heretical light. You should not use such pages as your primary source.
 
Both of the above parts in red are not accurate.

Just because VII didnt define new dogma doesnt mean it taught error (ie under the guise of “novelties…out of step with Tradition”) and most especially doesnt mean your free to “have your reservations”. It was a valid council ratified by the Pope and therefore requires our assent that its teachings to be true.

What IS mistaken here is that the Pope called and ratified the Council which leaves NO grounds for the average joe Catholic to say…

That webpage is hosted by radtrads, they have articles explicitly saying things like VII taugh heresy. It uses a lot of half quotes and misunderstandings to paint the Church in a bad/heretical light. You should not use such pages as your primary source.
I appreciate your concerns and honesty. I’m trying to be as careful as I can in researching this stuff. I don’t see anything in there that claims VII taught heresy, although the author clearly is not in favor of the council. The sources and footnotes he uses to make his point seem quite valid, so I’ll just refer to those and avoid his commentary.

I agree that it’s wrong to try and convince others to object the Vatican, especially to assemble as formal groups in order to do so. But for the individual “thinking” Catholic, there’s nothing wrong with researching in order to understand how VII has impacted our Church, and to form an opinion. One would not be questioning the Church’s ancient and infallible teaching authority that is required of us, only the many changes in the Church over the past 40 years and what role VII may have had in some of those changes.

I think it’s bizzare that traditionalists are chastised for holding fast to the teachings and practices of the past centuries, and in some cases labeled schismatic, while those in such experimental movements as the Charsimatic Renewal and East-West contemplative dialogue are given full sanction. To call the CCR movement “rad-mod” would be hailed as bigotry on these forums.

I’m simply seeking truth, and have no pre-conceived desired outcome. My seeking is a work in progress. What I don’t think the Chuch requires or teaches, is that “joe Catholic” should just switch off his brain when it comes to VII.

These sources don’t either:

The Christian is required to give the assent of faith to all the doctrinal and moral truths defined by the Church’s Magisterium. He is not required to give the same assent to teaching imparted by the sovereign pontiff that is not imposed on the whole Christian body as a dogma of faith. In this case it suffices to give that inner and religious assent which we give to legitimate ecclesiastical authority. This is not an absolute assent, because such decrees are not infallible, but only a prudential and conditional assent, since in questions of faith and morals there is a presumption in favor of one’s superior… Such prudential assent does not eliminate the possibility of submitting the doctrine to a further examination, if that seems required by the gravity of the question" (24. Nicolas Jung, Le Magistère de l’Èglise, 1935, pp.153 -154, Cf. DTC “Église” in, vol.IV, col.2209.)

From New Advent Encylopedia:

“But before being bound to give such an assent, the believer has a right to be certain that the teaching in question is definitive (since only definitive teaching is infallible); and the means by which the definitive intention, whether of a council or of the pope, may be recognized have been stated above. It need only be added here that not everything in a conciliar or papal pronouncement, in which some doctrine is defined, is to be treated as definitive and infallible. For example, in the lengthy Bull of Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception the strictly definitive and infallible portion is comprised in a sentence or two; and the same is true in many cases in regard to conciliar decisions. The merely argumentative and justificatory statements embodied in definitive judgments, however true and authoritative they may be, are not covered by the guarantee of infallibility which attaches to the strictly definitive sentences – unless, indeed, their infallibility has been previously or subsequently established by an independent decision” ( New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, “Infallibility” (1910))
 
DB,

One thing to keep in mind with that encyclopedia is that it is a great snapshot for 1910, but a lot of what is in there has changed. For instance, there have been two codifications of Canon Law since then (1917 and 1983). Just a warning.

John
 
DB,

One thing to keep in mind with that encyclopedia is that it is a great snapshot for 1910, but a lot of what is in there has changed. For instance, there have been two codifications of Canon Law since then (1917 and 1983). Just a warning.

John
Thanks for the warning. But I doubt the ideas expressed in that paragraph would no longer be true. The idea that the Church would have since come to require assent to a teaching without first questioning if it is definitive would almost seem to imply impeccability.
 
Okay, I stumbled across this, which has humbled me.
SAINT PADRE PIO—On Humanae vitae & Vatican II
Your Holiness,
I unite myself with my brothers and present at your feet my affectionate respect, all my devotion to your august person in an act of faith, love and obedience to the dignity of Him whom your are representing on this earth. The Capuchin Order has always been the first in the first line of love, fidelity, obedience and devotion to the Holy See; I pray to God that it may remain thus and continue its tradition of religious seriousness and austerity, evangelical poverty and faithful observance of the Rule and Constitution, certainly renewing itself in the vitality and in the inner spirit, according to the guides of the Second Vatican Council, in order to be always ready to attend to the necessities of Mother Church under the rule of your Holiness.
I know that your heart is suffering much these days in the interest of the Church, for the peace of the world, but above all, for the lack of obedience of some, even Catholics, to the teachings that you, assisted by the Holy Spirit and in the name of God, are giving us. I offer you my prayers and daily sufferings as a small but sincere contribution on the part of the least of your sons in order that God may give you comfort with His grace to follow the straight and painful way in the defense of eternal truth, which never changes with the passing of years. Also, in the name of my spiritual children and the Prayer Groups, I thank you for your clear and decisive words that you especially pronounced in the last encyclical, Humanae vitae; and I reaffirm my faith, my unconditional obedience to your illuminated directions.
May God grant victory to the truth, peace to his Church, tranquility to the world, health and prosperity to your Holiness so that, once these fleeting doubts are dissipated, the Kingdom of God will triumph in all hearts, guided by your apostolic work as Supreme Pontiff of all Christianity.
Prostrate at your feet, I pray you to bless me in the company of my brothers in religion, my spiritual children, the Prayer Groups, my sick ones and also bless all our good endeavors which we are trying to fulfill under your protection in the name of Jesus.
Humbly yours,
P. Pio, Capuchin
Although it’s not necessarily sinful to question non-dogmatic teaching, it could tempt one to pride. Padre Pio’s is probably a wise example to follow. St. Pio, pray for me. Lord have mercy on me.:gopray:
 
…VII was not unchangeable dogma, and there’s nothing wrong with questioning it."
If by questioning, one means dissenting, then this is incorrect. The teaching of Vatican II was guided by the Holy Spirit, even when the magisterium did not intend to promulgated their teaching in a definitive way. Nonetheless, Catholics owe what is called *religiosum obsequium *or religious assent of intellect and will to the authentic teachings of the magisterium. This religious assent of mind and will is incompatible with dissent.

The First Vatican Council decreed:
…we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.
Pius XII likewise affirmed, with regard to the ordinary teaching of the magisterium:
Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me”;[3] (Humani Generis, no. 20)
Dissent is “public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church.” If by “questioning” you do not mean “dissent” but instead refer to one having “serious difficulties, for reasons which appear wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching,” then that is something every Catholic needs to work through faithfulfully, respecting one’s position within the TAUGHT Church, in comparison to those vested by God with magisterial authority as among the TEACHING Church.

Up to the 1980s, there was many various views of theologians who insisted upon a so-called right to “legitimate dissent.” They were answered by the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith in the Instruction on the Vocation of Theologian. I recommend you read through it, as it trumps the contrary theological views leading up to it, including the views of the Notre Dame theologians who authored the 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia. I also recommend Paul VI’s exhortation Paterna cum benevolentia, which also discusses the problem of dissent. It can be read here.

Nonetheless, in response to those you run across who often seem to only trust pre-Vatican II sources, I would cite the following…

St. Thomas Aquinas
“We must abide rather by the pope’s judgment than by the opinion of any of the theologians” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Questiones Quodlibetales, IX:8).
St. Catherine of Sienna:
For divine obedience never prevents us from obedience to the Holy Father: nay, the more perfect the one, the more perfect is the other. And we ought always to be subject to his commands and obedient unto death. However indiscreet obedience to him might seem, and however it should deprive us of mental peace and consolation, we ought to obey; and I consider that to do the opposite is a great imperfection, and deceit of the devil. (St. Catherine, Letter to Brother Antonio of Nizza)

"Even if that vicar were a devil incarnate, I must not defy him." (St. Catherine, Letter to Bernabo Visconti)
St. Pius X:
If one loves the Pope, one does not stop to ask the precise limits to which this duty of obedience extends… one does not seek to restrict the domain within which he can or should make his wishes felt; one does not oppose to the Pope’s authority that of others, however learned they may be, who differ from him.* For however great their learning, they must be lacking in holiness, for there can be no holiness in dissension from the Pope*." (Pope St. Pius X, allocution of 18 November against dissenting priests, 1912, AAS vol. 4 (1912), 693-695. Selection from p. 695)
 
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