Ecumenism: was it necessary?

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Jim’s emphasizing all Christians agree more than disagree is an important point I think…an excellent reminder that we’re all trying to get to the same place. And I believe this understanding is critical for ecumenical activity, at any level.

But Jim, while your priest attends interfaith prayer services, which you have to admit is pretty much a normal service for a significant percentage of American protestants, does he invite the other ministers and congregations to attend Mass to see what goes on, and to ask questions?

If you accept that the Catholic church holds a geater understanding of the Truth taught by our Lord as well as the Sacraments he initiated, wouldn’t you feel obligated to share those gifts with all? While acknowledging the underlying common Christianity, wouldn’t it good to discuss with others, say, Jesus’ teachings on marriage and divorce?

Now that, I think, would be ecumenism.
 
In response to trogiah

I hear you Jim. I can think of a number of times the local churches got together to help the poor. When the Christian shelter or the Salivation Army puts out the word they need financial assistance or helping hands for a project, the Catholics are always in the frontline to assist. I applaud all that.

But there is another side to ecumenism. It happens when Catholics poorly formed in their faith, either the cradle Catholic, with little knowledge, perhaps he has been away from the Church for a couple of decades, or say a convert, who still has a Protestant way of thinking gets involved in inter denominational projects. Now picture these folks in an ecumenical gathering through a charismatic prayer group, or at a women’s AGLOW meeting or at a Lutheran Holy Spirit Conference, or hanging out at the latest interdenominational evangelizing program called ALPHA. Aside from the definite Protestant roots of some of these Catholic programs I mentioned, there is an added opportunity to absorb false teaching while the Catholic mingles with Christians from other denominations. Some of these Catholics do not have either the knowledge or the skill, and most often neither, to defend the Catholic point of view. This is a big problem. I observed this many times over the years and the consequences have not been minor to say the least. The reason for this is, many of these same people, who partake in these ecumenical events, are also active in various other parish activities, so they end up spreading false teaching, false doctrine and nobody seems to realize this is happening. There was a good reason why the Israelites were not allowed to fraternize with the gentiles in Old Testament times, and a similar protectionist attitude prevailed in the Catholic Church for close to two Millenniums. The bottom line is, not everybody has the knowledge or the wisdom to participate at Ecumenical gatherings without absorbing false doctrines. Who can say to a person, you are dumb, or you are naïve, or you just simply do not know enough, so for your own good and for the good of the Church stay away from ecumenical gatherings and leave the dialogue to those who know better? We cannot do that. So the Church was wise in the past to forbid and to frown on this type of interaction, and this protected the Church. Not much can a lay person accomplish anyhow. At the end of the day, it is really up to the hierarchy to come to some sort of common ground and the average person who is under the illusion that he is building bridges with our separated brethren is sadly mistaken and we all pay the price for his misguided attempts.
 
this forum is full of threads on the liturgical “reform”, Tridentine Mass, liturgical abuses etc., the Second Vatican Council, Vatican II documents, their implementation, and abuses promoted “in the spirit of Vatican II”. None of these have anything to do with Ecumenism. Only one V2 document dealth with it, but several papal encyclicals have promoted it. Why not search them out, or study some of the fine posts above, learn what Ecumenism means, then post your question again.
 
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albert cipriani:
If ecuminism was necessary, as you say, to bring Chrisitans to Catholicism, then why haven’t they come? After 40 years of ecuminism shouldn’t there be some way of measuring its success? By every measure of Cathlocism’s health we can only see the numbers going south these past 40 years including the number of conversions to Catholicism.

Seems you should be able to point to some fruits of ecuminism, for by their fruits ye shall know them. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic
Numbers is not the problem in Catholicism. We are, after all, the biggest church in Christianity with 1 billion Roman Catholics worldwide. The problem is the lack of commitment to our faith by many Catholics. Another problem is the kind of dissent that erodes confidence and undermines our certainty in the faith of the Church. Another problem is the lack of discipline and the misunderstanding of what ecumenism really is.

Antonio 🙂
 
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puzzleannie:
this forum is full of threads on the liturgical “reform”, Tridentine Mass, liturgical abuses etc., the Second Vatican Council, Vatican II documents, their implementation, and abuses promoted “in the spirit of Vatican II”. None of these have anything to do with Ecumenism. Only one V2 document dealth with it, but several papal encyclicals have promoted it. Why not search them out, or study some of the fine posts above, learn what Ecumenism means, then post your question again.
Annie, it really does not matter how we define it. What matters is how it is used and applied by the majority. Ecumenism has become the excuse for all kinds of disorderly conduct, alien belief and common confusion among the laity. This is the problem. Not what Vatican II intended with it or how it should be defined. What really matters is how the laity is interpreting and applying ecumenism. Not terribly well and at a great cost to the Church.
 
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Cherubino:
Being an unrepentant sociologist, I tend to look at ecumenism in terms of social stratification and change. Human nature being what it is, my hunch is that if the blessed day of Christian unity ever arrives, there will probably be some sort of gala planned to celebrate the event. This will undoubtedly precipitate a seething cauldron of debate over who should be in charge of the festivities, who will be on the invitation committee, as well as security policies, what sort of food will be served, seating arrangements, speakers, decorations, music, etc. etc. Who would be the emcee? Would the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury, an Orthodox Patriarch, Jerry Falwell, Jack Chick and Betty Bowers be at the head table together, or would they be in the kitchen peeling potatoes and washing dishes? I say slim chance any of them would tolerate the executive downsizing and loss of CEO and VP positions that necessarily happen in the wake of any corporate merger. Will the first really be last, and the last first? Would the workload become so big that they’d have to outsource the CDF to Pakistan? The devil, as usual, is in the details.
This reminds of something I downloaded off a Christian bulletin board about a dozen years ago. I posted it in in another thread about a month ago, but I think it is very apropos to your post. Here it is:

Like a Mighty Turtle, Moves the Church of God

During an ecumenical gathering, someone rushed in and shouted, “I smell smoke.”

“Fire, Fire”, cried the Pentecostals.

“Water, Water”, responded the Baptists.

“Every man for himself”, shouted the Congregationalists.

The Quakers prayed silently for the blessings that fire brings.

The Christian Scientists declared that fire existed only in the
people’s minds.

The United Methodists planned a three day conference to chart a plan of action.

The Lutherans wrote a treatise to post on the door condemning the wrong use of fire.

The Episcopalians designed a liturgy for the dedication of a fire.

The Roman Catholics appealed to Rome for the Holy Father’s guidance on the church’s teaching concerning fire.

The Presbyterians moved that a moderator appoint a task force to study the issue of fire and that they write a report to be submitted at the next meeting.

And the fundamentalist said, " Don’t worry, its just a Southern Baptist having a cigarette."
 
newadvent.org/cathen/15132a.htm This is an address for the Catholic Encyclopedia. Specifically it is for Ecumenism.
It is rather long. But, no where do I find JUST EXACTLY what ecumenism is.

820 in Catechism doesn’t say much more that to give Christ a gift of unity. For years I believe ecumenism has been understood by most Catholics to be the conversion of Protestants and Jews to Catholocism. If you ask a Protestant what it means you’ll get a shrug. Evidently the understanding of most is wrong. So what is it?
 
albert cipriani:
If ecuminism was necessary, as you say, to bring Chrisitans to Catholicism, then why haven’t they come? After 40 years of ecuminism shouldn’t there be some way of measuring its success?

Seems you should be able to point to some fruits of ecuminism, for by their fruits ye shall know them. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic
Reading back through this a sudden thought came to mind:

I think success can be measured in many ways. 60 years ago, Christians in Europe were slaughtering each other by the millions. I believe that was able to happen in part because some thought of themselves as “Lutherans” others as “Anglicans” and others as “Catholic”

At least that slaughter has stopped and at least at the moment seems very unlikely. It is a negative way of looking at the success of ecumenism but I think still a valid way.

-Jim
 
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Flounder:
Jim’s emphasizing all Christians agree more than disagree is an important point I think…an excellent reminder that we’re all trying to get to the same place. And I believe this understanding is critical for ecumenical activity, at any level.

But Jim, while your priest attends interfaith prayer services, which you have to admit is pretty much a normal service for a significant percentage of American protestants, does he invite the other ministers and congregations to attend Mass to see what goes on, and to ask questions?

If you accept that the Catholic church holds a geater understanding of the Truth taught by our Lord as well as the Sacraments he initiated, wouldn’t you feel obligated to share those gifts with all? While acknowledging the underlying common Christianity, wouldn’t it good to discuss with others, say, Jesus’ teachings on marriage and divorce?

Now that, I think, would be ecumenism.
My impression is (I am not exactly in the “know”) is that the priest in this parish is one who is not particularly enthusiastic about the interfaith council. To be fair to him, he has to split his time between two Catholic parishes and that fills his days I am sure.

I wonder is my experience is typical to some others. In our community, the local schools are often more of a focal point then the church congregations. Even the Jehovah’s witnesses turn out to be people you know. (One young man who came to my door with an “Awake” magazine was actually a former student of mine from high school. After he gave his spiel we caught up on old times a bit.)

Some may view this as a corruption of faith. I think the fact that people from denominations can get through life together is a sign that things have improved. Even though the number of individuals registered as members of the Catholic Church has not increased.

Some of the discussions you propose could be had - but I think it is prudent and respectful, not simply cowardly or “watering down the Catholic faith” to avoid such discussions until a strong sense of real unity in Christ has been established.

In his book, “Crossing the Threshold of Hope”, Pope John Paul II wrote a chapter entitled “In search of Lost Unity” In which he addresses many of the questions raised here. Might be worth a read.

-Jim
 
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tru_dvotion:
In response to trogiah

I hear you Jim. I can think of a number of times the local churches got together to help the poor. When the Christian shelter or the Salivation Army puts out the word they need financial assistance or helping hands for a project, the Catholics are always in the frontline to assist. I applaud all that.

But there is another side to ecumenism. It happens when Catholics poorly formed in their faith, either the cradle Catholic, with little knowledge, perhaps he has been away from the Church for a couple of decades, or say a convert, who still has a Protestant way of thinking gets involved in inter denominational projects. Now picture these folks in an ecumenical gathering through a charismatic prayer group, or at a women’s AGLOW meeting or at a Lutheran Holy Spirit Conference, or hanging out at the latest interdenominational evangelizing program called ALPHA. Aside from the definite Protestant roots of some of these Catholic programs I mentioned, there is an added opportunity to absorb false teaching while the Catholic mingles with Christians from other denominations. Some of these Catholics do not have either the knowledge or the skill, and most often neither, to defend the Catholic point of view. This is a big problem. I observed this many times over the years and the consequences have not been minor to say the least. The reason for this is, many of these same people, who partake in these ecumenical events, are also active in various other parish activities, so they end up spreading false teaching, false doctrine and nobody seems to realize this is happening. There was a good reason why the Israelites were not allowed to fraternize with the gentiles in Old Testament times, and a similar protectionist attitude prevailed in the Catholic Church for close to two Millenniums. The bottom line is, not everybody has the knowledge or the wisdom to participate at Ecumenical gatherings without absorbing false doctrines. Who can say to a person, you are dumb, or you are naïve, or you just simply do not know enough, so for your own good and for the good of the Church stay away from ecumenical gatherings and leave the dialogue to those who know better? We cannot do that. So the Church was wise in the past to forbid and to frown on this type of interaction, and this protected the Church. Not much can a lay person accomplish anyhow. At the end of the day, it is really up to the hierarchy to come to some sort of common ground and the average person who is under the illusion that he is building bridges with our separated brethren is sadly mistaken and we all pay the price for his misguided attempts.
I certainly agree that caution is prudent on many occasions. However I think much of what you have written would be better used to argue for better education of Catholics at all ages rather than for the discouragement of cooperative efforts among Christians of variousl denominations.

-Jim
 
trogiah said:
I certainly agree that caution is prudent on many occasions. However I think much of what you have written would be better used to argue for better education of Catholics at all ages rather than for the discouragement of cooperative efforts among Christians of variousl denominations.

-Jim

Jim, how do you propose to educate people who are convinced they are already “in the know” and are under the illusion that what they know is the truth? How do you educate the educators? Some of these people are in leadership roles! Try to tell the prayer group leader or the person who facilitates the RCIA that he needs to brush up on his Catechism, because they picked up false doctrines at the ecumenical gathering and are now teaching heresy? Worse yet, what if it’s your parish priest? What if the “education” the educators receive is suspect? I have been to charismatic prayer meetings and to lay formation workshops that resembled Protestantism or new age more than Catholicism!
 
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tru_dvotion:
But there is another side to ecumenism. It happens when Catholics poorly formed in their faith, either the cradle Catholic… Now picture these folks in an ecumenical gathering through a charismatic prayer group, … Aside from the definite Protestant roots of some of these Catholic programs I mentioned, there is an added opportunity to absorb false teaching while the Catholic mingles with Christians from other denominations. Some of these Catholics do not have either the knowledge or the skill, and most often neither, to defend the Catholic point of view.
If these people are “poor” in their faith, how can anything hurt their faith more?

Instead, I see people who used to be “poor” in their faith be enlightened by participating in praise and worship in a charismatic prayer group or just become a listener to discussions where “faith in God” is the topic in a Bible study.
This is a big problem. I observed this many times over the years and the consequences have not been minor to say the least. The reason for this is, many of these same people, who partake in these ecumenical events, are also active in various other parish activities, so they end up spreading false teaching, false doctrine and nobody seems to realize this is happening. There was a good reason why the Israelites were not allowed to fraternize with the gentiles in Old Testament times, and a similar protectionist attitude prevailed in the Catholic Church for close to two Millenniums. The bottom line is, not everybody has the knowledge or the wisdom to participate at Ecumenical gatherings without absorbing false doctrines. Who can say to a person, you are dumb, or you are naïve, or you just simply do not know enough, so for your own good and for the good of the Church stay away from ecumenical gatherings and leave the dialogue to those who know better? We cannot do that. So the Church was wise in the past to forbid and to frown on this type of interaction, and this protected the Church. Not much can a lay person accomplish anyhow. At the end of the day, it is really up to the hierarchy to come to some sort of common ground and the average person who is under the illusion that he is building bridges with our separated brethren is sadly mistaken and we all pay the price for his misguided attempts.
Ok, now I see that most people are afraid of ERRORS in teachings.

I humbly suggest that you include The Holy Spirit guidance in your opinion. Surely it would sound different.

[continue]
 
[continue]

JGC has just showed us the reason why Vatican II. I just want to give stress on a few lines :
The purpose of Vat II was,
From APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION / FIDEI DEPOSITUM of the CCC, christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/apostol.html
The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, which was opened 30 years ago by my predecessor Pope John XXIII, of happy memory, had as its intention and purpose to highlight the Church’s apostolic and pastoral mission, and by making the truth of the Gospel shine forth to lead all people to seek and receive Christ’s love which surpasses all knowledge (cf. Eph 3:19).
The principal task entrusted to the Council by Pope John XXIII was to guard and present better the precious deposit of Christian doctrine in order to make it more accessible to the Christian faithful and to all people of good will. For this reason the Council was not first of all to condemn the errors of the time, but above all to strive calmly to show the strength and beauty of the doctrine of the FAITH. “Illumined by the light of this Council”, the Pope said, “the Church . . . will become greater in spiritual riches and gaining the strength of new energies therefrom, she will look to the future without fear . . . Our duty is to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands of us, thus pursuing the path which the Church has followed for 20 centuries.”[1]
So Vatican II is about “Church future”, and facing it “without fear”, and follow the path that God has set before us with “faith beyond all knowledge”. Why shouldn’t we be fearful of errors? Because God the Holy Spirit is the Guidance for all who BELIEVE. And there is reason why this Spirit is called a HELPER, because it helps us in our weaknesses (including our tendency to err in the search of Truth).

Romans 8:15
For you have NOT received a spirit of slavery leading to FEAR ANYMORE, BUT you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

John 7:39
But this He spoke of the SPIRIT, whom THOSE who BELIEVED in Him were to RECEIVE…

John 14:26
"But the HELPER, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, REMIND you all that I said to you.

John 15:26
"When the HELPER comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the SPIRIT of TRUTH who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

God the Holy Spirit guide us all.
 
francisca said:
If these people are “poor” in their faith, how can anything hurt their faith more?
I disagree with you Francisca. If these people spent their formative time in better company; they could grow in their faith. What a cynical attitude is “how can anything hurt their faith more”! Not to mention the damage they cause to others with spreading errors among the naïve and the poorly catholicized in the parish.
Instead, I see people who used to be “poor” in their faith be enlightened by participating in praise and worship in a charismatic prayer group or just become a listener to discussions where “faith in God” is the topic in a Bible study.
The Bible study you mention is the blind leading the blind, in most cases just regurgitating Protestant explanations rather than Catholic theology. Praise and worship is one thing, superstitious practices and new age behavior is another. But these belong to quite another topic, and I shall not discuss it further under ecumenism.
Ok, now I see that most people are afraid of ERRORS in teachings.
And we all should be. Errors and heresies are detrimental to individuals and to the whole Body.
I humbly suggest that you include The Holy Spirit guidance in your opinion. Surely it would sound different.
**Let me just bring your attention to what the participants of this ecumenical dialogue have mistaken for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that is, the results of all this ecumenical effort has wrought upon the church by the ignorant and the not so ignorant: **

Jack Keene writes a column for a Catholic Opinion Newsletter in Madison, Mississippi with a definite southern papist perspective. Sadly his observations are not unique to the south USA. What he writes is a worldwide phenomena and not restricted by geography. We all have seen and thought the same. The following columns all relate to ecumenism, and I thought it may be worthwhile to post it for you and for others. Take a look. This is reality:

continued

 
Tru dvotion has an address for this: The first one on one post up from here.
"In light of the denominational splits among the Protestants, the Church must reject ecumenical dialogue with apostate non-Christian groups while preserving ecumenical efforts with those who remain Christian. All dialogue with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA), the Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA), and the United Methodists should be suspended. These denominations say it’s okay to dismember unborn babies and flush them down the sewer. The United Methodists actually house the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights in their national headquarters. All ecumenical discussion with the Episcopal Church should be suspended since they sanction not only abortion but sodomy as well. Denominations or individuals who sanction women having their babies dismembered and men engaging in anal sex with each other are no more Christian than Anton LeVay or Charles Manson.

By sanctioning sodomy and demanding priestesses, modern apostates in both the Catholic and Protestant churches are eliminating the main difference between Christianity and ancient paganism. Most of the ancient religions had priestesses and sanctioned sodomy. The Greek and Roman ‘gods’ themselves were often perverts. Paul’s preaching to the Gentiles against homosexuality and women’s ordination (1 Tim. 2.2) was anticultural and foreign to the ancient world if one reads Clement of Alexandria’s Exhortation to the Heathen (189 AD) or the Didache, or any of the Fathers, one sees that the primary distinguishing characteristics of Christian practice over paganism were strict morality and monotheism. To listen to Jesus or Paul’s words in the 1st century was to listen to cultural iconoclasts. By advocating that which has always been declared sinful, modern apostates have become neopagans.

In contrast to the above denominations, ecumenical dialogue should be actively pursued with Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, the Wesleyan Methodists, the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), traditional Anglicans (split from the Episcopal Church), and the Orthodox. While there are certainly major differences with these denominations regarding theology and practice, they have not denied the faith, and they are Christian.

It is an ironic fact that the massive sin of abortion has indirectly fostered what is probably the most important ecumenical development in the last 500 years, namely the Pro-Life movement. The fight against abortion has left no room on the fence. It has forced the hand of those who are Christian in name only, by bringing to the fore those willing to defend the least of His brethren. The Pro-Life movement, by emphasizing the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and the truth of God’s moral law, quickly separated the sheep from the goats. Sadly, the United Methodists, the Episcopal Church, the ECLA, and the PCUSA, are numbered among the goats, and should be dealt with as non-Christian religions. They should not even be accorded the courtesy one would extend to Buddhism, Hinduism, or Judaism which predate the revelation of Christ. No, they are Judases, betraying Christ and returning to their own vomit and wallowing in the mud. Our only involvement with these groups should be a constant call for their repentance and a return to the faith."

Are these strong words? I dont think so, they are only truth!
 
Hello tru-dvotion
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tru_dvotion:
and the average person who is under the illusion that he is building bridges with our separated brethren is sadly mistaken and we all pay the price for his misguided attempts.
I am a Catholic at times my work requires me to come into contact with Baptists, Anglican, and the Salvation Army in their own churches.

I see Christ working through these churches, I believe we need to build bridges.

peace

Eric
 
There is only one Jesus therefor there is only one head of His Church. If one head then one body. If one body then one Church. If one Church then one Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The Bible teaches we are one Church with one leader in God and one leader on earth with His ‘keys’. Scripture teaches us to welcome back the lost and to be as one. Scripture is very much anti-schismatic.

There is also only one heaven. We all go to it “IF” and only if we can endure in Faith to the end.
 
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