Ecumenism: was it necessary?

[tru_dvotion]

JGC:

CAUTION

I agree there are several questionable links on this particular website… But the columns I posted are well written and are not in the same category. By the same token, when you go to any Catholic site, and there is endorsement of unapproved apparitions, fabrications about “what the Pope said”, promoting false seers, and other inaccuracies… I could conclude the same: beware

Unless one goes to the Vatican’s website, one cannot expect that everything one finds is true. Some of these sites will allow postings from a variety of seemingly Catholic sources. So if one cannot think for oneself, has no discernment and no logic, sure, do not read ANYTHING from a website that contains a certain amount of rubbish. I suppose then Catholic Answers Forum would not make your mark either, because I have red a great number of rubbish and loads of heresies in some of the posts. This is the Internet, and if you are looking for dependability and for 100% truth, you will just have to stick to the Vatican’s website. I agree, the link you posted is scandalous, so much so, that one has to be imbecile to take it seriously. But the ones I posted are sharp and to the point articles. They were not written for the website, they were written for a publication. This particular website simply put it up. Instead of being shocked, why not try using your brains sometimes.

 

[francisca]

Malachi4U:

There is only one Jesus therefor there is only one head of His Church. If one head then one body. If one body then one Church. If one Church then one Catholic and Apostolic Church.

OK, just remember the sole head is Jesus, and that the Pope is only “the rock” and not “the ROCK”. It is proven in history that Popes did make some mistakes. We can’t deny this. If we deny this we are liars and we are not with the Truth.

The Bible teaches we are one Church with one leader in God and one leader on earth with His ‘keys’. Scripture teaches us to welcome back the lost and to be as one. Scripture is very much anti-schismatic.

It is for the people to submit to authority, not authority to enforce its power on the people. The scripture told us to submit to authority. While to Peter Jesus said “feed my lambs”.

There is also only one heaven. We all go to it “IF” and only if we can endure in Faith to the end.

---

Malachi4U

I agree, we have to endure in Faith to the end.

Originally Posted by tru_dvotion
ecumenical dialogue

trosch.org/for/keene7g.htm

If we are agaist apostacy, then we will have no choice but to reachout to those who are lost, have dialogue with them, so that apostacy will not go further.

God bless

 

[JGC]

tru_dvotion:

JGC:

CAUTION

I agree there are several questionable links on this particular website… But the columns I posted are well written and are not in the same category. By the same token, when you go to any Catholic site, and there is endorsement of unapproved apparitions, fabrications about “what the Pope said”, promoting false seers, and other inaccuracies… I could conclude the same: beware

Unless one goes to the Vatican’s website, one cannot expect that everything one finds is true. Some of these sites will allow postings from a variety of seemingly Catholic sources. So if one cannot think for oneself, has no discernment and no logic, sure, do not read ANYTHING from a website that contains a certain amount of rubbish. I suppose then Catholic Answers Forum would not make your mark either, because I have red a great number of rubbish and loads of heresies in some of the posts. This is the Internet, and if you are looking for dependability and for 100% truth, you will just have to stick to the Vatican’s website. I agree, the link you posted is scandalous, so much so, that one has to be imbecile to take it seriously. But the ones I posted are sharp and to the point articles. They were not written for the website, they were written for a publication. This particular website simply put it up. Instead of being shocked, why not try using your brains sometimes.

Like most people, when reading articles from website URL’s provided by other people I go back to the homepage and look at whose website it is and ‘where there coming from’.

The individual below, from perusing his website and a quick google search appears to be a suspended Catholic priest with many spectacularly un Catholic beliefs.

No matter how good a or several articles pasted onto his site may be, I would certainly never link to a site such as this one.

Some weeks ago a priest in Alabama (Fr. David C. Trosch) was suspended by his bishop for going on record publicly in favor of killing abortion doctors. The priest lost his parish. I suppose there was a letter of suspension – it could hardly have been done merely orally. I know of no other official Church document on the subject. Catholic moral doctrine is sufficiently clear so that a special document is not necessary: no one may ever perform an evil action to achieve a good end.

cin.org/mateo/killing-abortionist.html

 

[tru_dvotion]

Like most people, when reading articles from website URL’s provided by other people I go back to the homepage and look at whose website it is and ‘where there coming from’.

The individual below, from perusing his website and a quick google search appears to be a suspended Catholic priest with many spectacularly un Catholic beliefs.

No matter how good a or several articles pasted onto his site may be, I would certainly never link to a site such as this one.

Well in that case, let us totally disregard everything a Lutheran, a Baptist; or an Anglican may have to say. Perhaps we should not be welcoming non Catholic participation on the Apologetics Forum either. In what way is what they have to say any different from this priest? Yes this is a suspended Catholic priest. But he made some very good points in the articles I posted. Where is your ECUMENISM? It is precisely those who are in dissent who may give us some clue to our weaknesses. We do not have to embrace his problems nor his dissent. But he made some pretty astute observations on ecumenism and these are not without merit. Why is it OK that a suspended Franciscan priest from Medjugorje is warmly welcomed in the United States on a speaking tour, people continue to listen to him, but the above suspended priest is the devil’s spawn? What is the difference? Please enlighten me!

 

[francisca]

Confusion about informations in websites : The most difficult to differenciate are whether a website submit to Rome or in schism : if these website are of traditionalist extremist or not.

Most typical traditionalist in schism with Rome usually would say :

• it is extremely anti-ecumenism in general, or
• it says “it is for ecumenism, but everybody outside catholic church is damned mercilessly”
• it says that “the present Pope is not the real Pope”
• it is usually “forgets” about “Jesus’s good news”
• It usually talk about “obedience” to enforce authority over people without remembering that leaders have obligation to love the people.
• it is extremely anti-charismatic movement.
• it is extremely very very very anti-protestant
• it is extremely anti-Novus Ordo Mass and insist on Latin Mass.
• it is extremely anti-Vatican Council II

The words “extremely” are important to show whether they are in schism or not. Rome usually is very flexible to people who love tradition and question some questions regarding ecumenism, and renewal in the church. But if they are “extremely anti this and anti that” these are usually the ones unreconcilable and therefore they are in schism with Rome.

May God bless us all.

 

[JGC]

tru_dvotion:

Well in that case, let us totally disregard everything a Lutheran, a Baptist; or an Anglican may have to say. Perhaps we should not be welcoming non Catholic participation on the Apologetics Forum either. In what way is what they have to say any different from this priest? Yes this is a suspended Catholic priest. But he made some very good points in the articles I posted. Where is your ECUMENISM? It is precisely those who are in dissent who may give us some clue to our weaknesses. We do not have to embrace his problems nor his dissent. But he made some pretty astute observations on ecumenism and these are not without merit. Why is it OK that a suspended Franciscan priest from Medjugorje is warmly welcomed in the

United States on a speaking tour, people continue to listen to him, but the above suspended priest is the devil’s spawn? What is the difference? Please enlighten me!

Firstly your items are all by Jack Keene and not by Fr Trosch so he (Fr Trosch) did not make any points at all!

My Ecumenicism? Brought up presbyterian, baptised Episcopalian, now Catholic. Oldest friend Baptist Friends in all of these traditions etc

I must note your personal insult (use your brains (sic) ) and an impassioned defence of someone I did not even attack far less call devil spawn! - I only noted that posters should note the type of material to be found on the site and in my view proceed with caution!

Out of interest would you endorse anything actually authored by Fr T?

 

[tru_dvotion]

JGC:

Out of interest would you endorse anything actually authored by Fr T?

No, I would not. Not because I believe everything he says is heresy, but the volume of heresy is so overwhelming that it would take too much effort to separate the truth out of it. Jack Keene has problems also, but these do not negate his astute observations about false ecumenism. People, who have not given a lot of thought to the topic, often do not realize there is a difference between real and false ecumenism. Real ecumenism builds up the Church and saves souls. False ecumenism undermines the Catholic faith and produces under catholicized converts, not really benefiting either the convert or the Church. At the moment, the Church has been in the grips of false ecumenism, and that is for the most part the result of overly emphasized lay involvement in this process. For that reason alone, there is simply not enough information to counter balance this slanted view. There are things better left in the hands of the clergy, and ecumenism is one of them. I am not saying we should not be interacting with those outside of the Church. I have friends from all faiths, Jews, atheists, Lutherans. But we interact on a social level, and unless they are willing to investigate Catholicism, we do not embark on a religious discussion. I would certainly not join them in their religious services, unless it was a wedding or a funeral. Sorry I was hard on you. In the future I will be more careful not to offend people with the home base of web links, which is not easy… because really there are very few that do not contain some questionable content. And I am referring to websites that are seemingly devoted to the Catholic faith.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Exporter:

Was there a historical reason for Ecumenanism? Why change things that had been considered correct for many years. Why “challange” the Tridentine Mass? Why attempt to appear more Protestant?
Why did this occur? I was perfectly happy with the Church in 1965. Yes, I know it’s said the changes were to make people “feel like” they were participating at Mass. “Feel like” isn’t faith…is it?
WHo can convince me that Ecumenanism was needed?

None can convince anyone of anything - unless one is willing and ready to be convinced ​

And yes, there are plenty of good reasons for ecumenism.

Because the Church is not for our benefit - it’s for the making-known of Jesus Christ: it’s the only club that exists for the benefit of non-members It’s meant to be - among other things - a sign of the Presence of God among men, and a sign of the reconciliation of man to God.

And it can’t be an entirely effective sign, if it is disunited and broken; if Christians, rather than go outing out in love to each other, are enemies to one another. We can not give to the world at large a unity we do not have among ourselves.

Besides, Christians have been quarrelling for centuries - so there are many wounds that need healing, a lot of barriers that need to come down, a lot of poisoned memories to heal. And a lot of misunderstandings, distortions, and general ignorance of each other’s beliefs and customs and piety and theology and traditions to correct.

Besides, whatever is given to one Christian body, is a blessing to all; and what injures one, injures all.

As for how long this has been going on - the first attempts to mend the Catholic-Protestant split began in the 16th century. And have been going on, rather fitfully, ever since.

Persecutors don’t distinguish between Anglicans, Catholics, Orthodox, Presbyterians, and so on - the 22 Martyrs of Uganda in 1885/6 were accompanied by 13 Anglican Martyrs. The Rumanian Communists after WW2 were impartial in imprisoning and torturing Christians: Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran - they all suffered together.

If they did not distinguish in doing wrong, why should we distinguish in doing good to those who are redeemed by the same Lord and Master as we are ? The Church is one, because it is the Body of the only Christ. There are not two Jesuses - one for Catholics, one for non-Catholics. There is one Jesus, one salvation, one redemption, one Cross, one Church, one Holy Spirit given to all, one God and Father of us all. So we can’t stand aloof from others whom Christ has redeemed. Christ did not - why should we ? What is good enough for Him, should be good enough for us. We could not possibly have a better example

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

ecumenical dialogue

[Trosch.org | Blog sobre la fe cristianakeene (Trosch.org | Blog sobre la fe cristiana)7g.htm

Whatever Happened to Courage?

trosch.org/for/keene7l.htm

Satan’s Little Helpers

[Trosch.org | Blog sobre la fe cristianakeene (Trosch.org | Blog sobre la fe cristiana)7k.htm

Whatever Happened to Courage?

[trosch.org/for/keene (http://www.trosch.org/for/keene7l.htm)7l.htm

A brief quotation from the link just above - which can be checked in case it seems that anything is being taken out of context:​

• Early Christians were slaughtered by the thousands and it wasn’t because they just ‘loved’ everybody and went around ‘dialoguing’? According to the most ancient Roman accounts the emperors accused the Christians of two “crimes”: 1. Cannibalism. The Romans were repulsed by’ the Christian’s claim to consume literal flesh and blood; i.e. Christ in the Eucharist, and 2. “Hatred of mankind”. This is what filled the emperors with rage.

My emphasis] ISTM that it takes a very great deal of courage, stamina, and character, to say “Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you” - and to do so oneself, after saying that. There is nothing feeble, “wet”, effete, or weak about loving others - it’s a sign of strength. It may not appeal to the sort of Christians who are afraid of seeming weak or unmanly or who think that love is strictly for sissies, or that Real Men ™ go around beating the stuffing out of the opposition. But it is what Christ wills, commands, and makes possible. Happily for us, there is no way of getting round the Cross, which is the most shocking display of Love possible.

The Modern

Face of Bigotry

[Trosch.org | Blog sobre la fe cristianakeene (Trosch.org | Blog sobre la fe cristiana)8c.htm

 

[JGC]

tru_dvotion:

Real ecumenism builds up the Church and saves souls. False ecumenism undermines the Catholic faith and produces under catholicized converts, not really benefiting either the convert or the Church. At the moment, the Church has been in the grips of false ecumenism, and that is for the most part the result of overly emphasized lay involvement in this process. For that reason alone, there is simply not enough information to counter balance this slanted view. There are things better left in the hands of the clergy, and ecumenism is one of them.

…better left in the hands of the clergy…

Yes and no. Our parish RCIA is about to run again and as our priest repeatedly states, People interested in the Catholic faith rarely come and knock on my door (an aside, I was such a person who knocked on another priests door
)

It’s up to the laity to as accurately as they can answer enquireers initial questions and point them in the direction of the Church. To ensure this accuracy I am as careful as I can be to ensure my answers either are from or agree with the CCC - a sure norm for teaching the faith JPII.

I do agree with you in the sense that much damage can be done by Catholics not thouroughly grounded in the faith or even those with a good knowledge who will give personal opinions not consistent with Church teaching, or ‘guess’ on an issue rather than saying “I don’t know, I ll find out for you” or again referring the enquirer to a priest. So priests and laity have their own roles to play which can be quite different with different enquirers. Some enquirers may be comfortable talking to you but not a priest until later on, or you might be approached with a request to speak to a priest directly.

False ecumenism undermines the Catholic faith and produces under catholicized converts, not really benefiting either the convert or the Church

I’d be genuinely interested in you detailing a little more about false ecumenicism and how it undermimes the faith.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I’d be genuinely interested in you detailing a little more about false ecumenicism and how it undermimes the faith.

I certainly did not question the wisdom of RCIA. There would be no chance for those born outside of the Church to come into the fold. What I am referring to is questionable organizations such as ALPHA, which by the way is not Catholic in origin, and the Charismatic Movement, which again involved right from its very beginning, Catholics going to Protestant sects for anointing and to this day has a very false ecumenical quality about it. Let me be specific. A cradle Catholic ends up taking a Life in the Spirit Seminar, now he is member of the prayer group. Now there is a Lutheran Holy Spirit Conference and he along with the members of the prayer group goes along and participates in that conference. He gets prayed over by the Lutherans, joins the Sunday worship service, picks up a few heretical ideas and pronto he is a confused puppy. I have been there and I seen some of these Protestant speakers in action. One such Sunday service consisted in why the Catholic Church is wrong about apostolic succession and why that particular Lutheran pastor was grieved by that. There were people who among us (the Catholics) who actually believed all that the good pastor said. Also, there are charismatics who regularly participate in ecumenical prayer meetings. Talk about a hotbed for herecies. All these ecumenical efforts end up “hurray, hurray we are one in Christ but the Catholics are so wrong on so many things”. This is false ecumenism, it serves no good purpose and this is what I was referring to and not to RCIA.

 

[JGC]

tru_dvotion:

I certainly did not question the wisdom of RCIA. There would be no chance for those born outside of the Church to come into the fold. What I am referring to is questionable organizations such as ALPHA, which by the way is not Catholic in origin, and the Charismatic Movement, which again involved right from its very beginning, Catholics going to Protestant sects for anointing and to this day has a very false ecumenical quality about it. Let me be specific. A cradle Catholic ends up taking a Life in the Spirit Seminar, now he is member of the prayer group. Now there is a Lutheran Holy Spirit Conference and he along with the members of the prayer group goes along and participates in that conference. He gets prayed over by the Lutherans, joins the Sunday worship service, picks up a few heretical ideas and pronto he is a confused puppy. I have been there and I seen some of these Protestant speakers in action. One such Sunday service consisted in why the Catholic Church is wrong about apostolic succession and why that particular Lutheran pastor was grieved by that. There were people who among us (the Catholics) who actually believed all that the good pastor said. Also, there are charismatics who regularly participate in ecumenical prayer meetings. Talk about a hotbed for herecies. All these ecumenical efforts end up “hurray, hurray we are one in Christ but the Catholics are so wrong on so many things”. This is false ecumenism, it serves no good purpose and this is what I was referring to and not to RCIA.

If it’s the Alpha course which was started by evangelical Anglican Nicky Gumbel you are referring to I share your concern. I spoke to one priest who said they run the Alpha course but they adapted it ‘quite a bit’ with a whole evening added on in the middle of the course to ensure the experience is Catholic.

My own overview of Ecumenicism is that we cannot ignore our differences nor simply allow the current situation to continue, but just be nice to each other, which is where I think you are coming from. I agree.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I am glad.

 

[Exporter]

I was the one who started this thread. After reading the several posts my original opinion of Ecumenism still holds.

I have not seen nor have I read a thing that is good for the Catholic Church resulting from Ecumenism.

Those wishy- washy posters who think it is just hunky dorry to listen to Lutherans and suspended Catholic Priests are wrong. That behavior is a bad example for the young. Keep on doing that and we will become a very real minority - loosing Catholics to those “want-a-bees.”

 

[tru_dvotion]

I was the one who started this thread. After reading the several posts my original opinion of Ecumenism still holds.

I have not seen nor have I read a thing that is good for the Catholic Church resulting from Ecumenism.

Those wishy- washy posters who think it is just hunky dorry to listen to Lutherans and suspended Catholic Priests are wrong. That behavior is a bad example for the young. Keep on doing that and we will become a very real minority - loosing Catholics to those “want-a-bees.”

I wholly support your assessment on ecumenism, while I do advocate to being nice to everybody, in and out of the Catholic Church. I agree with you, we have a problem with ecumenism.

The only irony here is: some of the best arguments against ecumenism came from a site of a suspended priest. I also got a lot of flack for it. Truth is truth Exporter, and truth may be found at the most unlikely and unexpected places… even at a grotesque site of a suspended Catholic priest. Nobody on this Earth has an exclusive monopoly on Truth or Falsehood it seems.