Ecumenism with Lutherans

[pnewton]

How about dated and lacking in important data and understanding. Neither St. Ambrose or St. Thomas saw, or could have seen, the Protestant Reformation and all that it entailed. But even though Protestants are deficient in some respects, they have not been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. The Holy Spirit has still used them as means of salvation.

 

[exnihilo]

I grew up in an ELCA church; I didn’t (and don’t) see such a huge gap between it and Catholicism that the two could never reconcile again.

I’m not denying there are huge hurtles; but, hey, this Lutheran made the leap.

I think ecumenism does help individuals become Catholic. It might even help a local parish/church convert, as in a few Episcopal churches. But whole denominations are unlikely to convert. Certainly denominations like the ELCA won’t as they are way too far from the Catholic Faith and moving ever more quickly away.

That isn’t the goal. That’s what they want us to believe the goal is. The real goal is the further “watering down” of the Catholic Faith.

That doesn’t seem charitable. Do you have evidence that is the real goal?

 

[misstherese]

That’s why the word “protestant” is in parenthesis…it doesn’t matter if the word “protestant” wasn’t specifically said because clearly the word applies according to the context.

 

[R_H_Benson]

That doesn’t seem charitable. Do you have evidence that is the real goal?

Look at the fruits of the endeavor so far. The new “ecumenism” has done nothing but harm. On one hand, it has encouraged religious indifferentism among lukewarm Catholics, and on the other, it has deeply scandalized devout Catholics. We contradict our tradition, we honor their heresiarchs, we spurn our martyrs, all to get a fleeting warm and fuzzy feeling by having these “ecumenical” encounters with Protestants and come away from them FURTHER from real unity because all that we have done is reinforce the false notion that nothing is wrong and that “what unites us is greater than what divides us”. What an abominable and uncharitable lie that slogan is. What divides Catholics from Protestants is FAR GREATER than what unites us: a chasm of everlasting fire that Christ has given His Church ALONE the power to save souls from falling into. Of course, the entire “ecumenical” movement is driven by the radical left-wing of the Church who has sold Christ for 30 pieces of silver, who no longer believes in Divine Retribution or eternal damnation, and whose ultimate goal may indeed be unity, but a unity of compromise, not real unity which consists of heretics recanting their false doctrines and returning to the Fold which is the Catholic Church alone.

 

[commenter]

That’s why the word “protestant” is in quotes…it doesn’t matter if the word “protestant” wasn’t specifically said because clearly the word applies according to the context.

Of course, the authoritative “context” for this topic is the Vatican II Decree on Ecumenism, and subsequent papal documents that incorporate it.

 

[exnihilo]

I don’t think that is evidence that is their goal. I agree that ecumenism has been taken too far when we are honoring Luther, having celebrations of the Reformation in Catholic Churches, or allowing a female Lutheran bishop ordain another woman as bishop in a Catholic cathedral. But, that isn’t proof the goal is as you say it is.

Consider this, all the overtures made to Protestants by the Catholic Church means they have less excuse for not being Catholic. They aren’t in as much ignorance and they are being warmly welcomed. It should make you pray doubly for God’s mercy for them. If any Catholic prelate or priest is doing something which harms the Faith you should likewise pray for him.

Again, I think we may go too far in ecumenism, but all of us rely on God’s mercy for our salvation. None of us want pure justice.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

So…that’s what you think of the saints? Bigots? Scandals? I’m confused here.

Infallibility is neither a requirement for nor a characteristic of sainthood. And since you cited Aquinas, he held that unborn babies didn’t receive their soul until 40 days’ gestation (for boys), or 80 days (for girls). That is clearly contrary to what the Church teaches today. He was a man of his time in a pre-scientific age. I stand by my statement in terms of the charge that “Protestants never had any divine faith in Christ” is scandalously wrong. And I’d accept “dated” as well. Much like Aquinas’ opinion on the ensoulment of babies. You might benefit by reading something by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

 

[R_H_Benson]

I don’t think that is evidence that is their goal. I agree that ecumenism has been taken too far when we are honoring Luther, having celebrations of the Reformation in Catholic Churches, or allowing a female Lutheran bishop ordain another woman as bishop in a Catholic cathedral. But, that isn’t proof the goal is as you say it is.

It’s proof enough for me. Catholics are being deceived, confused, and offended by this “ecumenical” madness. It is a calculated disaster.

pray doubly for God’s mercy for them

For the Protestants, and for those in the Church who are foisting this false “ecumenism” on the faithful.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, it’s like this whole idea that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace alone. A lot of Catholics have embraced this. But it isn’t true. These words are causing the confusion:

Together we confess: By grace alone

These words are found in the “JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION” by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church. Apparently, based upon these words, many Catholics are beginning to say that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace alone.

But no one, apparently, reads the fine print. If they read a bit further, they’d find this:

• “Where, however, Lutheran teaching construes the relation of God to his human creatures in justification with such emphasis on the divine ‘monergism’ or the sole efficacy of Christ in such a way, that the person’s willing acceptance of God’s grace - which is itself a gift of God - has no essential role in justification, then the Tridentine canons 4, 5, 6 and 9 still constitute a notable doctrinal difference on justification” (PCPCU 22).

In other words, the Catholic Church teaches synergism between the grace of God and man’s will to be saved. Anti-Catholic Lutherans teach monergism, the grace of God overpowers man’s will and forces some to be saved. If these Lutherans with whom we can say, “by grace alone”, claim that the Catholic Church is now accepting monergism, they are sorely mistaken and the condemnations of Trent, still apply.

If however, they have reinterpreted monergism and grace alone to mean that man must cooperate with God’s grace, then we are on the same page.

To me, this is a sign that the Catholic Church is bending over backwards to save as many people as she can. But she is not changing the Doctrines of Jesus Christ to do so. If she ever did that, she would not save anyone and imperil everyone. That is why God has given her the Charism of infallibility.

And no, she does not Teach salvation by grace alone. Historically, that is the Protestant doctrine that man has no free will, that priests are unnecessary, that the Church is unnecessary, it facilitates the doctrine of double predestination, in other words, it is one of the foundational doctrines of Protestantism. Unless it is re-interpreted, as that small group of Lutherans have apparently done.

 

[misstherese]

Look…I have no issue with ecumenism. Ecumenism is great…when one has in their mind the determination to convert.

What I do have an issue with is people of all religions, including Catholics, joining in and singing Kumbaya without any attempt at persuasion into the Catholic faith.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

These sorts of threads do nothing but destroy. They destroy charity in in hearts of Lutherans. They destroy charity in the hearts of Catholics. Destruction of charity doesn’t come from the Holy Spirit.

 

[EricF]

Maybe this is a drastic oversimplification, but shouldn’t our time and efforts be spent trying to be the best Catholic Christians we can be? They can either get on board with us or not. We can control only ourselves.

 

[whyeyeman]

Charity is the love of God and the love of neighbor for the love of God. Heresy is contrary to everything of God, and therefore we must hate it.

 

[pnewton]

In other words, the Catholic Church teaches synergism between the grace of God and man’s will to be saved.

Did you catch that phrase, " that the person’s willing acceptance of God’s grace - which is itself a gift of God"? Gift is grace, an unearned favor.

By grace or we saved through faith, and that is also a gift of God. Everything is grace. We cannot even have life apart from God.

We have real differences, but I think we are okay on this.

 

[whyeyeman]

You have free will to accept or decline God’s grace.

 

[pnewton]

You have free will to accept or decline God’s grace.

Absolutely. That is one difference we have with some Protestants, though not Lutherans.

 

[JetteZ]

Charity is the love of God and the love of neighbor for the love of God. Heresy is contrary to everything of God, and therefore we must hate it.

Heresy’s severity is measured in the destruction of Christian faith. Although in the strictest sense Lutherans are heretics because they do not align themselves under the Pope the severity of their sin is far from that of those that denounce Christ.

I fail to see how is treating Lutherans as a scourge is loving them as Christ has loved us.

 

[whyeyeman]

The alternative to having constant meetings and watering down of Catholic teachings to appear more acceptable to the Lutherans is not a “scourge”.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

In other words, the Catholic Church teaches synergism between the grace of God and man’s will to be saved.

Did you catch that phrase, " that the person’s willing acceptance of God’s grace - which is itself a gift of God"? Gift is grace, an unearned favor.

By grace or we saved through faith, and that is also a gift of God. Everything is grace. We cannot even have life apart from God.

We have real differences, but I think we are okay on this.

The difference is, “free will”. Those who believe in monergism, deny that man has free will.

 

[Catholicos]

At a park play tennis, we have a beautiful dynamic. A Catholic(myself), an evangelical Assemblies of God, a Seventh Day Adventist, a Baptist and a few other non-denominational members among a host of atheists and agnostics. On occasion we talk about religion and politics. Most of the time I can find unity with the other Christians on many political issues such as marriage , abortion and all things moral. It’s us believers against the atheists, and we put up a good defense for Christian morality and God.

Unity is built and safeguarded in the Catholic faith. The only time my Seventh Day Adventist friend is united with my Evangelical AOG friend is when they reject something that’s very Catholic, ie. Baptismal regeneration, purgatory and praying for the dead. They attempted to do a Bible study one time and that just ended up in a squabble over Biblical interpretation.
This is how it always ends with my Bible Christian friends when there is no infallible authority

At best, Ecumenism can bring understanding and respect, but unity in faith is a real stretch, and I don’t think is realistic at all. The foundation of Protestantism , not just Lutheranism is the believers authority to determine for themselves who their authority is, usually it’s themselves first , then the Bible. There is no such thing as Catholic unity, it’s not necessary since Communion in Catholicism by definition binds all believing obedient souls. Not just here on Earth, but in heaven as well. This is something my Protestant friends will never understand it totality, and sadly will never experience, even with other of their fellow non-Catholic Christians. , it just does not exist in Protestant theology.