Ecumenism with Lutherans

[spedteacherita]

spedteacherita,

What do you think happens to the Souls of those who’s body dies? This might be the difference in understanding about the Saints hearing us. Do you believe that God has Angels that hear us and petition God for us?

I know this will frustrate people but I’d like to see from Scripture - If shown I would believe.

Thanks and God bless.

 

[NuclearReceptor]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p5.htm

(Can’t get more official than the Catechism!)

(I hope the link works — not sure how this board works with URL.)

 

[NuclearReceptor]

Just curious — why do you believe in sola scriptura then?

It doesn’t say so anywhere in Scripture that Scripture alone is the source of all truths.

I get that Scripture is written and unchangeable so there’s no chance of “corruption”, but God never says, “Believe in written Word alone.”

 

[pacloc]

Why would this assume that God didn’t hear us?? And a “mere” angel?? God confused?? You have no respect for Holy Things it seems, and clearly do not understand the communion of God and the Saints and Angels. Christ was not ashamed to call the Saints Brothers. And the Saints were not ashamed to be in fear of the Angels holiness. As for God changing His mind, this clearly is in the respect of temporal choices that of course God has foreknown from all eternity, but for the sake of us that are not God, they are changes of mind.

 

[MichaelP3]

Why would this assume that God didn’t hear us?? And a “mere” angel?? God confused?? You have no respect for Holy Things it seems, and clearly do not understand the communion of God and the Saints and Angels. Christ was not ashamed to call the Saints Brothers. And the Saints were not ashamed to be in fear of the Angels holiness. As for God changing His mind, this clearly is in the respect of temporal choices that of course God has foreknown from all eternity, but for the sake of us that are not God, they are changes of mind.

You may have gone a bit over the top there saying I have no reapect for the Holy. Help me if I am wrong that and Angel would he a “mere being” when in the presence of God. I did add that part of presence to alleviate confusion. I am very happy to say pretty much anything would be a “mere” thing (as you stated) when in God’s presence. No matter how Holy.

Oh and I am not the one saying God is confused. Quite the contrary.

So taking all into account. Why would any petition work or be needed if God is this God you are referring to?

Side not: I probably don’t understand it as you understand it. That just means our understanding differ. Nothing more.

 

[spedteacherita]

Just curious — why do you believe in sola scriptura then?

It doesn’t say so anywhere in Scripture that Scripture alone is the source of all truths.

I get that Scripture is written and unchangeable so there’s no chance of “corruption”, but God never says, “Believe in written Word alone.”

At this point I have no other reference point with which to measure such beliefs. If Tradition is so valuable why wasn’t it written down for future generations. Why wouldn’t the inspired writers of the Scriptures not have included the areas that I have concern with.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree at this time. Until I can be convinced otherwise I will continue worshiping the Lord within the Lutheran Church.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this.

In Christ,

Rita

 

[pacloc]

That is not frustrating at all. All teaching should be evidenced in the Holy Scripture. But can you explain a little about what you do believe as far as the Souls of the Saints and what Angels do, especially Guardian Angels. It should also be noted that a major point in the Incarnation was the revealing of things that had only been partially understood as if in shadow. So if it does not seem very evident that we should ask the intercession of the Angels and Saints, it could be that the scriptures that show that Angels and Saints do in fact intercede for us, would lead to the development for us to ask them to do so. Christ’s explanations about persistent prayer could then logically be applied to asking for intercession from the Angels and Saints as well.

What do you make of

Matthew 18:10 - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

And all of the mentions of Paul praying for the Church and saying that there is great power in these prayers. If you believe that he now is with God and doesn’t suffer from the temptations of the world, why would he cease to pray for us that are still struggling? And if we know he does this, how could we not ask for his and other holy Saints for their prayers?

 

[pacloc]

I’m having a hard time understanding how it is you respect Holy Things. This mentality of viewing Angels and the Holy Virgin and Saints as “mere” beings compared to God is the source of blasphemy. No one is arguing that only God is in His own level of Being, but the Christian teaching is that God became man so that man might become God. And as I mentioned in the scriptures I referred to, Christ has made the Holy Angels and Saints in a way that deserve just as much reverence as we would show to God. Christ makes it very clear that if we mistreat or treat correctly the Angels and Saints, we mistreat or treat correctly Him. True Christians are not afraid of worshipping the creation by showing this reverence to God’s Holy creatures, because they also know that this is all by God’s Grace, while He is by Nature the only one Holy. There is no competition because we are nothing in origin.

Edit: The sentence above can be read wrong to mean that it is okay to worship the creation. It means that the fear of worshipping the creation, which is wrong, is not an issue because the Christian knows the reality of the creature’s origin, nothing.

 

[NuclearReceptor]

Tradition is valuable because it is how mortal beings with limited understanding can at least partially grasp and understand God.

Tradition is valuable because God imparted authority to the Church, made up of humans cooperating with the Spirit of Truth.

He didn’t have to. He didn’t have to be born of the Ever-Virgin Mary. He didn’t have to become Incarnate.

But He chose to. That was God’s decision.

We certainly don’t understand God or His ways.

We follow the Church and Her teachings because Jesus Christ wanted the Church to be the means of salvation of souls. And He promised Himself the Church will not fall.

I cannot imagine Jesus establishing the Church and saying, “Oh actually – never mind. The authority to forgive sins? Yea, I’m taking it back.”

Faith is not something to rationally convince ourselves of. In fact, I doubt we even can rationalize and understand the Holy Trinity, Incarnation, Resurrection, etc.

Tradition (and the eachings, customs, liturgy, doctrine, Sacraments) is important because that’s what Jesus chose to do.

Scripture doesn’t talk about abortion or gay marriage or transgender ideology or communism or even uses the term Holy Trinity.

So are we free to believe whatever we want?

 

[RandomAlias]

Let us pray… that all Christians may be united in faith, hope, and love.

 

[kinghenry17]

luther states you are saved by faith alone and also to sin boldly. The lutherans I know appear to follow this belief system to their own peril. To say they believe in Jesus and then to sin boldly is interesting. I guess that they believe Jesus is God but find it easier to sin boldly at the same time. All of them are passionate anti Catholic, at least the ones I have met. This drive to make the Catholic Church more friendly to lutherans has hurt our Church and has been a grave sin against God.

 

[pnewton]

Then Luther came and said you are saved by faith alone and sin boldly.

Luther did not tell anyone to sin boldly.

If you think you are called to evangelize to Muslims, that is really great. There is a need there as well.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Narrow gate, my friend. Narrow gate.

 

[JonNC]

It seems to me that if we recognize not only that pain in each other, that pain caused by our sinful divisions, but also see the work of the Spirit, more common ground can be found.

 

[JonNC]

I thought we were comparing the Church and Luther. Considering you said that Lutherans wish me to see Rome’s errors, I said that the errors of Luther are worse then the Church’s errors (if the Church ever made any errors). Sorry for not making it clear

My mistake. As you speak from a Catholic POV, I of course understand.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Confessional Gadfly: What does "Sin Boldly" mean?

For those interested in the context of what Luther actually said.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Again, who is saying this?

And these?

But if you can let Luther go, then why still be Lutheran and why celebrate his 500th anniversary?

God Bless You

Thank you for reading

Well, actually I’m not. I’m continuing Anglican now,but i guess I see the value in these kinds of ceremonial functions. Without them, it seems that unity is a greater distance off.
I don’t think Lutherans should let Luther go anymore than Catholics should let the Pope go. The idea of ecumenism is to work together to overcome differences, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Pope Benedict spoke to this in 2010 when he visited the Lutheran parish in Rome.

"Continuing his homily, delivered off-the-cuff in German, the Holy Father noted how “we hear many complaints about the fact that there are no longer any new developments in ecumenism. Yet”, he insisted, “we can say with gratitude that there are many elements that unite us”.
"We must not content ourselves with the successes of ecumenism over recent years, because we still cannot drink from the same chalice or gather together around the same altar", he said.
"This", he went on, "cannot but make us sad because it is a situation of sin; and yet unity cannot be achieved by men. We must entrust ourselves to the Lord, because He is the only one Who can give us unity. Let us hope that He brings us to that goal".

In his short homily there, the Holy Father touched on the range of emotions about ecumenism, as well as the reason why efforts go on. This cannot but make us sad because it is a situation of sin; and yet unity cannot be achieved by men.
Who can we turn to? We must entrust ourselves to the Lord, because He is the only one Who can give us unity.

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Content-Library-NewsUpdates-WorldNews-Benedic-XVIVisitsRomeEvangelicalLutheranChurch

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

But the last two popes called for these commemorations.

If the Catholic Church did this on it’s own, and didn’t hold joint services, it would be a totally different story, but holding joint services changes it entirely, since we are mourning (or should be) while the others are celebrating Martin Luther’s 500th anniversary. Using the word ‘commemorate’ just brushes this truth under the rug and creates much scandal and confusion when joint services are held between Catholics and Lutherans on Luther’s 500th anniversary.

God Bless You

Thank you for reading

I don’t think it does, and I certainly don’t think Pope Francis thinks that. He stood firm, as he should have, when approached with inter-communion for that day.
Having a Matins or Vespers service does not signal a breaking down of Catholic or Lutheran doctrine. It only signals that you may be closer than you once were, and you are not enemies.

 

[JonNC]

Why are there more Lutheran apologists and liars on here than those who defend Catholics? Luther does state to sin boldly. maybe you can answer this for me.,.since you are a Lutheran, why do lutherans go to catholic mass and get communion? I would never think of entering a Lutheran building myself

They shouldn’t. It is disrespectful to the Catholic faithful worshiping there. almost as disrespectful as your opening sentence to this post. It is also, frankly, disrespectful to their own communion.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Theres been a lot of chatter here but I will just state my personal opinion about this whole problem.
When we commemorate the 500 years of the protestant reformation, I doubt that any Catholic actually thinks of it as a good thing.
What the point of ecumenism is bringing the Church together in unity as much as is possible.
I don’t think this necessarily means that the Church will change its doctorine.
And as we can’t really unite in everything without the holy spirit, I believe as this commemoration is here to show that there are SOME things that we agree on, and that in the end, heretics or not, a lot of people want to worship Christ. And that is where the whole point of unity comes into play. We can stay divided if they don’t want to change their doctorines, but we have to unite in our prayers for Christ.
As Paul says in 1 Cor 1:10 :

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought

But later he also says to get away from people who preach falsly, and to hold on to what they were thought (From the Church).

So which of theese 2 is it ?
I think Paul here is expressing the essence of ecumenism.

The ideal here is to be unified in Christ with everything we can be unified, and even Jesus wished for us to be one. But if false teaching appear, we mustn’t conform ourselves to them just for the sake of unity.

If that was the case, the protestants and catholics would have merged a long time ago.
Ecumanism at its core is an approach to understand each other, and despite our differences meet at the cores of our belief, prayer and union in Christ. Just because we believe different things does not mean we should break any contact. If the Church is a part of Christ’s body, and organism if you want to say, it requires comunication , both with the outside and the inside. Communication between each other is what is going to lead to more charity and possibly the changing of certain doctorines in the protestant church.

(Of course with this post I don’t want to say that I believe the protestants are in any way right or that we shouldn’t convert them , and I am repeating this again becase from reading the thread some people think that the church “celebrates” the reformation in a literal sense. It doesn’t .)

The ultimate unity will end up happening in God/Jesus,most likely at his second coming.