Ecumenism with Lutherans

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I get the need to separate Luther from today’s Protestants.

In the past, Luther was a heretic. But today he’s celebrated?

Today, (if the stamp design is true), he gets a place of privilege standing with a fellow error-spreader Melanchton holding the Augsburg Confession (some elements which are mutually exclusive with the Catholic faith) - replacing the Blessed Virgin and St. John.

Does hope for future Communion necessitate such recognition of the one that propagated all this…mess?
 
It’s my understanding that the only synod here in the US that joined in the Ecumenical Celebration for the anniversary was the ELCA which is part of the Lutheran World Federation.

It’s my understanding the confessional Lutherans (LCMS/WELS) did not participate. They still hold to the beliefs in the Concord Book which includes the Pope is the AntiChrist.

Therefore I find it odd that any confessional Lutheran that posts would express unhappiness at some of the Catholics who were upset about this commemoration. Their own synods did not participate at all.

Just a thought.

That said, any step forward is a good step, better than hatred and division.
 
Golly! You have been taking this Anti-clericalism business seriously, haven’t you.

Any thoughts about politeness, though?
 
You are the one claiming that the Catholic Church no longer considers Lutherans materially heretic. So you need to prove your statement. As I said, I doubt it. Theres this little detail of the anathemas in the Council of Trent which were addressed directly at anyone who adheres to Luther’s errors.

Again I’m open to hearing what you have to say
 
Since you seem unable to understand the plain words I have used, let me be even clearer. I have already said it more than once

Look at that post again. Yes, we celebrated Martin Luther’s 500th birthday. In 1983. That was when he was proclaimed by the Catholic Church as Witness of Jesus Christ

Regarding the 500th anniversary of the Reformation – which is a larger event than the person of Martin Luther – this is Rome’s position
  1. In 2017, Lutheran and Catholic Christians will commemorate together the 500th anniversary of the beginning of the Reformation. Lutherans and Catholics today enjoy a growth in mutual understanding, cooperation, and respect. They have come to acknowledge that more unites than divides them: above all, common faith in the Triune God and the revelation in Jesus Christ, as well as recognition of the basic truths of the doctrine of justification
  2. Already the 450th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession in 1980 offered both Lutherans and Catholics the opportunity to develop a common understanding of the foundational truths of the faith by pointing to Jesus Christ as the living center of our Christian faith. On the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s birth in 1983, the international dialogue between Roman Catholics and Lutherans jointly affirmed a number of Luther’s essential concerns. The commission’s report designated him “Witness to Jesus Christ” and declared, “Christians, whether Protestant or Catholic, cannot disregard the person and the message of this man”
  3. The year 2017 will see the first centennial commemoration of the Reformation to take place during the ecumenical age. It will also mark fifty years of Lutheran–Roman Catholic dialogue. As part of the ecumenical movement, praying together, worshipping together, and serving their communities together have enriched Catholics and Lutherans /…/ Therefore, they long to commemorate 2017 together
  4. These changes demand a new approach. It is no longer adequate simply to repeat earlier accounts of the Reformation period, which presented Lutheran and Catholic perspectives separately and often in opposition to one another /…/
Now my question to you is: Are you, in fact, in complete submission to the authority of the hierarchy with regard to their authoritative declarations at and after Vatican II on how the Church proceeds on our relations with our sisters and brothers who are baptised into the one Body of Christ, but are non-Catholic? Or do you dissent from these? Because if you are in dissent, you are not a lay person I have any wish to have any contact with at all – rather your pastors, obviously, need to provide you with remedial catechesis

Finally as you are a lay person who clearly has never studied theology – or even bothered to learn the thought of the Church on these issues – you should be very cautious in calling a heretic not only a priest but a priest who holds a mandate from the hierarchy in this field…because you will face the judgment of Almighty God for that insolence, which will be far more exacting than ecclesial interdict or punishment

I trust these words are transparently comprehensible to you
 
Why should I say anything to you when you have, at hand, the authoritative document, published by the Holy See and with the text as promulgated. You may read it yourself.

If you refuse to do that, you can answer to God for that. It is your choice.
 
Thank you.

I have responded to this person.

I would simply give a warning that the attitude that you remark is one I have experience with in the 50 years of the dialogue in persons who are faithless to the living Magisterium that is the hierarchy, that is the College of Bishops.

Fortunately, that attitude was worse 50 years ago – by which I mean that the teachings and examples of a beatified Pope and a canonised Pope, as well as the changes in the hearts of people on the part of those actually open to the Holy Spirit, have greatly changed the landscape of Catholic thought and attitudes. Pope Saint John Paul II movingly acknowledged this in Ut Unum Sint.

We are therefore in a completely different place today than what Vatican II confronted, when the world’s bishops discerned that the ecumenical movement was a divine imperative and our previous positions and attitudes relative to non-Catholics were to be discarded. And by God’s grace, I was blessed to be a witness to that – and, as a priest, I gladly testify to it
 
Snippet from “Martin Luther Witness to Jesus Christ” (Link to full text)
He teaches us that unity in essentials allows for differences in customs, order and theology.
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Just how much difference is deemed acceptable (for now)? Sure even within the Catholic Church, there are different customs. But theology-wise? Are they not important? If they are, how do we reach unity in those important aspects of the faith, and what are the largest hurdles of theological unity?
 
I have been reading a little on the history this dialogue. There seems to be a lot of animosity toward the Church today, yet it might be of interest to know that current initiative started under Pope Paul VI, and has therefore been an active project of four popes. How can this not be a work of God?
 
It literally says the pope is the anti-Christ? Yikes…

It’s not actually widely believed by confessional Lutherans is it?
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Now my question to you is: Are you, in fact, in complete submission to the authority of the hierarchy with regard to their authoritative declarations at and after Vatican II on how the Church proceeds on our relations with our sisters and brothers who are baptised into the one Body of Christ, but are non-Catholic? Or do you dissent from these? Because if you are in dissent, you are not a lay person I have any wish to have any contact with at all – rather your pastors, obviously, need to provide you with remedial catechesis
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Martin Luther was a Catholic priest, not a mere layman, who refused to submit to the authority of the Church. His refusal resulted in the fracturing of Western Christianity. How can we be upset at mere lay Catholics who bristle at the celebration of a dissident who caused schism? How can we not want to dialog with them if we are at the same time celebrating Martin Luther?
 
Don_Ruggero said:
…Such a mindset has no place in Catholicism today.

Thankfully their mindset and language, which does typify the approach of Catholics of centuries past, was decades ago set aside by the Holy See and the College of Bishops as unacceptable in the face the divine imperative of the ecumenical movement. …
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Are you insinuating that there are no anti-Catholic Lutherans anymore? How many Lutherans are actually negotiating with the Catholic Church?

From all I’ve read, the vast majority of Lutherans reject the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue. But perhaps you have better sources with better information.
 
No it is not believed by all. I doubt many even know it is said.

Help me if I am wrong but there is only 1 antichrist? And this is 500 ish years ago?
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Why should I say anything to you …
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I’m not twisting your arm. But I thought you addressed me first. Didn’t you? So why did you say anything to me if you don’t want to talk?
 
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Lay Catholics in dissent on this matter are not an object of dialogue but are in need of being instructed

Those lay people who have the unmitigated gall to say that their bishops are acting in a scandalous or heretical manner – as if the laity have ANY place to say such an audacious thing – are laity in need of being first remedially educated and, if that fails, punished. Catholic laity do not speak in that fashion to Bishops, who are their shepherds

As the Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism decreed
  1. The Directory is addressed to the Pastors of the Catholic Church, but it also concerns all the faithful, who are called to pray and work for the unity of Christians, under the direction of their Bishops. The Bishops, individually for their own dioceses, and collegially for the whole Church, are, under the authority of the Holy See, responsible for ecumenical policy and practice
  2. At the same time it is hoped that the Directory will also be useful to members of Churches and ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. They share with Catholics a concern for the quality of ecumenical activity. It will be an advantage for them to know the direction those guiding the ecumenical movement in the Catholic Church wish to give to ecumenical action, and the criteria that are officially approved in the Church /…/
  3. The new edition of the Directory is meant to be an instrument at the service of the whole Church and especially of those who are directly engaged in ecumenical activity in the Catholic Church. The Directory intends to motivate, enlighten and guide this activity, and in some particular cases also to give binding directives in accordance with the proper competence of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. In the light of the experience of the Church in the years since the Council and taking account of the present ecumenical situation, the Directory brings together all the norms already established for implementing and developing the decisions of the Council given up to the present and brings them up to date when necessary. It strengthens the structures that have been developed for the support and guidance of ecumenical activity at every level of the Church. While fully respecting the competence of authorities at different levels, the Directory gives orientations and norms of universal application to guide Catholic participation in ecumenical activity. Their application will provide consistency and coordination to the various practices of ecumenism by which particular Churches and groups of particular Churches respond to their different local situations. It will guarantee that ecumenical activity throughout the Catholic Church is in accordance with the unity of faith and with the discipline that binds Catholics together.
    /…/ It is the task of the local Ordinary and of the Episcopal Conferences and Synods of Eastern Catholic Churches to see to it that the principles and norms contained in the Ecumenical Directory are faithfully applied, and with pastoral concern to take care that all possible deviations from them are avoided
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Don_Ruggero said:
Lay Catholics in dissent on this matter are not an object of dialogue but are in need of being instructed

Those lay people who have the unmitigated gall to say that their bishops are acting in a scandalous or heretical manner – as if the laity have ANY place to say such an audacious thing – are laity in need of being first remedially educated and, if that fails, punished. Catholic laity do not speak in that fashion to Bishops, who are their shepherds
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Can we say Martin Luther had unmitigated gall? I understand we should show respect for Church leadership and bishops. What I can’t understand is celebrating Martin Luther and the Reformation while at the same time criticizing otherwise faithful Catholics for doing far less than Fr. Luther and those who left the Church in the Reformation all of whom were themselves disobedient.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
as if the laity have ANY place to say such an audacious thing – are laity in need of being first remedially educated and, if that fails, punished
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Hi there.

This is pretty interesting for me as Catholics claiming having a central authority as being so important but we still have cases as you pointed out in your post? Now the central authority may be a thing but it doesn’t seem like it is upheld and respected?
 
MichaelP3 said:
Hi there.
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Hi.
This is pretty interesting for me as Catholics claiming having a central authority as being so important but we still have cases as you pointed out in your post?
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The Church stands strong despite them, though. Look at all the troubled times since Vatican II.
Now the central authority may be a thing but it doesn’t seem like it is upheld and respected?
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It’s upheld and respected by most Catholics.

In my opinion, some people need to make a distinction between their opinion and the Magisterium. There are some laypeople who think they know more than the Pope. These people speak very authoritatively, but they have no real authority. They just have an attitude. And it gets really bad when you disagree with them.

And, its nothing new. The Catholic Church has been dealing with undisciplined, ornery, sinful folk for 2000 years. It’s a miracle that She is still standing strong. Yeah, that’s exactly what it is.
 
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My faith in the Catholic Church does not change depending on how I perceive, positively or negatively, the Church leaders to be.

Yes, the times are confusing and troubling (troubling because it’s confusing) — but there is One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

Perhaps as an elder sibling, the Catholic Church needs to be more understanding and pastoral compared to the Orthodox Church. We have to meet somewhere with the separated brethren without crossing a line…but where’s the line exactly?

I just don’t know what the objectives are and what is in the works to bring the goal of unity into fruition.

There’s a lot of dialog. What/where/when will the action take place?
 
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