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De_Maria
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I see that tone outside of Catholicism all the time. Did you have us on a pedestal or something?
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I see it, too, but my comment was a response to Mary’s.JonNC:
I see that tone outside of Catholicism all the time. Did you have us on a pedestal or something?
Some Catholics deserve to be on a pedestal, figuratively meaning excellent examples of the faith: Mother Teresa, popes JP2 and BXVI.
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Don_Ruggero
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I find any disagreement by any Cathoiic on this matter completely inexcusable, given the relationship between the laity to the College of Bishops.
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De_Maria
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You must live in an insulated place where you’ve never met anti-Catholic bigotry. We live in the real world. Therefore, I can relate to the resentment of those who have grown up around people who call the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon and the Pope the anti-Christ. And then, all of a sudden, they’re supposed to forget all that and celebrate the very things that have been anathema up to this time.MaryT777:
I find any disagreement by any Cathoiic on this matter completely inexcusable, given the relationship between the laity to the College of Bishops.
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And of course, some Catholics call non-Catholics heretics, claim our clergy and sacraments are just pretend, and remind us that “outside the Church, there is no salvation.”Don_Ruggero:
You must live in an insulated place where you’ve never met anti-Catholic bigotry. We live in the real world. Therefore, I can relate to the resentment of those who have grown up around people who call the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon and the Pope the anti-Christ. And then, all of a sudden, they’re supposed to forget all that and celebrate the very things that have been anathema up to this time.MaryT777:
I find any disagreement by any Cathoiic on this matter completely inexcusable, given the relationship between the laity to the College of Bishops.
I think both sides have reason to be offended, and Christ offers a reason to forgive
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De_Maria
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Guilty as charged. But I’m doing it with all the best intentions. I don’t want to see my brethren, some of which are in my own family, fry in eternity. :bowing_man: Sorry.
Isn’t that why so many Protestants are always trying to convert Catholics away from the Church?
Christ has also given us a mission. Has He not? What is that mission? Perhaps you remember.
19Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded
We both do that.
I think they would say exactly the same thing. It seems to me, to the contrary, that we have a whole lot of unchurched neighbors who need our attention more than we need to proselytize each other.
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De_Maria
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Well, I live in the Bible belt. So I need to keep my sword sharp.
But, you’re right. They say that the largest denomination, second only to Catholicism, is the group of non-practicing Catholics. If we could only get their attention. But, I suppose the world has them in a knot. Only the grace of God can untie it.
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ATraveller
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To be fair, when ‘Anglican’ is used people mostly associate that with the non-orthodox denominations.
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De_Maria
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I get the picture. Although something happened to the first sentence there.
However, I don’t see it as altogether a bad thing. I’ve learned a great deal since I started my journey into apologetics. Before that, I was a complete ignoramus on anything biblical. It is written:
Proverbs 27:17 Iron is sharpened by iron;
one person sharpens another.
Yeah, when our children were young and we were members of the largest homeschool group in our area (SETHSA), I never knew what I was supposed to do when people got up and bragged, “I used to be Catholic, but now etc. etc.” Its not as though they didn’t know that I and several other Catholics were also in the room. Of course, that was before my sojourn into apologetics. I don’t know if they’d put up with me in that group, today.
Eventually, we just separated and formed our own group.
I occasionally have run-ins with a few people at work, though. But, once they know that I can defend Catholic Doctrine from Scripture, they stay away. Well, most of them. There’s a few guys that like to go toe to toe with me, but our company is very mobile and right now, none of them are working in my vicinity. And since our company downsized last year, they may actually be gone.
Lol! That brings back a lot of memories.
Interesting experiences. My own sense is basically to leave Christians be, particularly those who are sacramental. I’ve always been more comfortable with Catholics than evangelicals. Even the language is different.
I guess you’ve noticed my occasional push back on the use of the term Protestant.
I guess you’ve noticed my occasional push back on the use of the term Protestant.
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exnihilo
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I can agree to an extent, but I really do think that so long as Protestantism exists it actually is a threat to any form of Christian Faith. What I mean is lurking if not front and center in any form of modern Protestantism is the idea that you read the Bible and determine the Christian Faith for yourself. It undermines the very idea of church so you end up with people worshipping in their own way by going for a walk on Sunday.
The early reformers didn’t have this attitude. They thought there was a authoritative, visible church. They thought they were in the one, true church. But, especially in America, as time went by to be able to account for all the differences they had to invent and accept a ‘mere Christianity’. It seems to me this leads to indifference about doctrine, worship, and being an active member in a church.
What I mean is that I think modern Protestantism is dangerous not only to the Catholic Faith but any Christian Faith. That doesn’t mean I don’t think there aren’t a lot of people in these churches who lead good Christian lives.
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Don_Ruggero
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Indeed, @JonNC. It is a tragedy when that occurs because the Catholic faithful who do so show that they are not properly following their own hierarchy.
And the point is that any Catholic lay person to dare do that is to act against the authority of the Catholic hierarchy. Catholics need to take action against such fellow Catholics – for being faithless to Church authority. Non-Catholic Christians, moreover, do well to point out the behaviour as well as to ask such rogue people to state that they submit without qualification to the determinations of the Holy See on matters of ecumenism and the relationship of the Catholic Church to non-Catholic Christians.
And the point is that any Catholic lay person to dare do that is to act against the authority of the Catholic hierarchy. Catholics need to take action against such fellow Catholics – for being faithless to Church authority. Non-Catholic Christians, moreover, do well to point out the behaviour as well as to ask such rogue people to state that they submit without qualification to the determinations of the Holy See on matters of ecumenism and the relationship of the Catholic Church to non-Catholic Christians.
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De_Maria
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That’s mine, as well. My journey into apologetics actually started as a journey into catechesis. When our first child was born, my wife and I wanted to make sure that she received a better religious education than we had. I had a lot of questions and someone said, “the internet has a lot of knowledgeable people.” So, I started “lurking” in some Catholic forums. At the time, I had a deep distrust of the internet. I didn’t think my sojourn into it would be permanent.
The very first question that I read is very memorable to me, because the ensuing discussion shook me to the core.
A distressed Catholic asked this question, “Where does Scripture say anything about the Pope?” Apparently, Protestants were harassing him on this matter and he was starting to doubt Catholicism.
But, he went to the right place. A Catholic pointed him to Matt 16:18. That was great. That was awesome. I thought. So, I was very encouraged. But the next day, I visited the same thread just to see if anyone else had responded. The last thing that I expected had happened. A Protestant had responded. And he took the verse apart word for word. Explaining that petros means “little stone” and that therefore, Christ was not building the Church upon Peter, but on Himself. It rocked me to the core. I literally fell to my knees and prayed all night. I told God I would follow Him where ever He led, but I knew that the Bible was His Word. So, if Catholicism couldn’t defend the Bible, I must not be in His Church.
Have you ever read this Scripture?
Proverbs 18:17 Those who plead the case first seem to be in the right;
then the opponent comes and cross-examines them.
The next day, I got back to see if there was any response. And, there was. I’ll be ever grateful to that young man. He called himself “the fulltruth”. And he picked apart the Protestant argument just as thoroughly as the Protestant had to the previous Catholic earlier. I’m sure you’re familiar with the explanation. Petra is in the feminine gender so, St. Paul had to change it to Petros to fit Simon. It isn’t true that petros means “small stone”. Lithos does. Etc. etc.
So, I got back on my knees and I thanked the Lord for this man. And, that’s when I started my sojourn into apologetics.
[/QUOTE]particularly those who are sacramental. I’ve always been more comfortable with Catholics than evangelicals. Even the language is different.
I guess you’ve noticed my occasional push back on the use of the term Protestant.
Yep. I know that some Protestants find that demeaning. But so do some Catholics when we are called Roman Catholic. In both cases, I find the terms convenient and descriptive. So, I use them until someone complains. Well, I don’t use Roman to describe myself anymore. But my wife still does. She’s even got a bumper sticker that proudly proclaims us Roman Catholic. So…
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MaryT777
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I have no disagreement with this issue myself. The issues I have is some of the Lutherans using statements such as well you must have no have faith in your leaders etc are confessional Lutheran who will not take part in these commemoration activities…
Jon is well known for his opinion he disagreed with the LCMS decision not to sign the JDDJ. No one said to him well you must not have faith in your leaders. That was when he was LCMS which I realize is not the case now but he recently noted it himself and is posting on the ecumenism with Lutheran thread.
Perhaps it is ok to disagree with leaders in the LCMS Church and articulate that point. I find it disingenuous to fault Catholics for doing the same thing he has done with a very important decision with his leaders in his previous Church.
Jon is well known for his opinion he disagreed with the LCMS decision not to sign the JDDJ. No one said to him well you must not have faith in your leaders. That was when he was LCMS which I realize is not the case now but he recently noted it himself and is posting on the ecumenism with Lutheran thread.
Perhaps it is ok to disagree with leaders in the LCMS Church and articulate that point. I find it disingenuous to fault Catholics for doing the same thing he has done with a very important decision with his leaders in his previous Church.
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Don_Ruggero
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The nature of the respective relationships of laity and of clergy to the College of Bishops is what governs Catholic behaviour – not how other Christians relate to their ecclesial communities and the respective leadership.
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No argument. TEC and the Cof E do not put off an air of orthodoxy anymore. I guess I should be clear that I am continuing Anglican
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yankeesouth
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Exactly…here is Pope emeritus Benedict XVI again… Dialogue cannot substitute for mission…
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