Ecumenism with Lutherans

[De_Maria]

This renunciation of truth seems realistic and useful for peace among religions in the world.

“It is nevertheless lethal to faith. In fact, faith loses its binding character and its seriousness, everything is reduced to interchangeable symbols, capable of referring only distantly to the inaccessible mystery of the divine,” he wrote.

Thanks for that. And I think that a lot of well meaning Catholics are misunderstanding this new movement in the Church. They seem to think that the Church has capitulated in her Teachings. Rather, I believe, she is merely “re-formulated” the Teachings.

For example. Grace alone has always meant monergism in justification. Thus it was anathematized by Trent. But the Church has now said, “together we can say, by grace alone”. However, what is not mentioned, is that in the appendix, the Church says:

"Where, however, Lutheran teaching construes the relation of God to his human creatures in justification with such emphasis on the divine ‘monergism’ or the sole efficacy of Christ in such a way, that the person’s willing acceptance of God’s grace - which is itself a gift of God - has no essential role in justification, then the Tridentine canons 4, 5, 6 and 9 still constitute a notable doctrinal difference on justification" (PCPCU 22).

Thus, the Church still teaches synergism in justification.

So, grace alone does not mean the same thing to Catholics as it does to non-participating Protestant churches. But many of them don’t go to the trouble of searching the appendix.

And Catholics who have not kept abreast of the proceedings, also think that the Church is caving to Protestant error.

 

[De_Maria]

The nature of the respective relationships of laity and of clergy to the College of Bishops is what governs Catholic behaviour…

What about the nature of the relationship of the College of Bishops to the laity? Do you really think that posting the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification on the Vatican website is enough to teach and inform the Catholic Faithful the why’s and the what’s of that which you have been doing in hiding for the past 20 years?

You perhaps, were living with this movement, day in and day out. But the rest of us were dealing with Protestant anti-Catholics trying to proselytize our children. Suddenly, you decide to celebrate Luther and his Reformation and everything is hunky dory?

Reality check. You’ll now have to spend another twenty years getting the Catholic laity to understand why the Catholic Church is now celebrating what the Catholic Church once anathematized as Protestant error.

 

[Reuben_J]

We need our clergy to go to the ground more instead of living in safe house of the Vatican. What are their sheep doing, their safety and the (name removed by moderator)ut they receive. I have been saying this, maybe a year already, but I don’t like to seem as if arguing with a priest whereby many of our fellow Catholics would jump on the wagon to condemn it, but yes, reality check. Think about the one billion Catholics worldwide, from Japan, New Zealand and Africa, who do not know why, just why, we are celebrating Luther, a personality of our all these years and still now, of division, unfaithfulness and just being wrong.

 

[tseleehw]

What about the nature of the relationship of the College of Bishops to the laity? Do you really think that posting the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification on the Vatican website is enough to teach and inform the Catholic Faithful the why’s and the what’s of that which you have been doing in hiding for the past 20 years?

You perhaps, were living with this movement, day in and day out. But the rest of us were dealing with Protestant anti-Catholics trying to proselytize our children. Suddenly, you decide to celebrate Luther and his Reformation and everything is hunky dory?

Reality check. You’ll now have to spend another twenty years getting the Catholic laity to understand why the Catholic Church is now celebrating what the Catholic Church once anathematized as Protestant error.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Simply saying “shut up and obey the bishops” isn’t going to convince anyone, and in most cases will do the exact opposite. It makes it seem like there is something to hide.

It is best to remember that the vast majority of Catholics are likely unaware of these celebrations going on within the Church and are simply going about day-to-day business and ministering to the immediate needs of their parish, families and community, not worrying about what’s going on in Rome half a world away. I know that if I didn’t frequent this forum and other Catholic news sites, I wouldn’t have a clue that it’s the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. It hasn’t been mentioned at my parish this year, and while I’m guessing that there was probably some event at my archdiocese’s cathedral, it’s not a primary concern for most Catholics on the ground.

Unless you have very close family that are Protestants or have done research for another reason, I think many Catholics are at best aware of general Catholic rules about Protestants, such as “don’t take communion at a Protestant church” and “they can’t have communion at a Catholic church”. I can at least speak for my family in that this is about as far as knowledge about Protestants go. It’s hard enough to learn about one’s own religion let alone numerous others. Couple this with the fact that many Catholics’ experience in speaking about religion with Protestants entails arguing against Protestant anti-Catholic propaganda such as “Why do you worship Mary?” and “The Catholic Church isn’t in the bible” and it’s no wonder Catholics are skeptical about celebrating a man who is known for his defiance of Church authority and to a lesser extent his rabid antisemitism.

 

[De_Maria]

Unless you have very close family that are Protestants

About half of my extended family is now Protestant. None of them are aware of this development. If they were, I’m sure they would have already mentioned it.

 

[pnewton]

Guilty as charged. But I’m doing it with all the best intentions. I don’t want to see my brethren, some of which are in my own family, fry in eternity. :bowing_man: Sorry.

You do know I hope that the phrase about being outside the Church does not mean that one has to be a member of the Catholic Church, don’t you? It is all well and good to want to evangelize to others, especially those who are not active in their faith, and to offer the possibility of a fuller truth in the Catholic Church.

 

[yankeesouth]

Yes…’ those too may receive salvation’.

 

[De_Maria]

You do know I hope that the phrase about being outside the Church does not mean that one has to be a member of the Catholic Church, don’t you?

??? What’s the point? Can you tell which Protestant is saved and which isn’t? Is there some sign of predestination that I should know about so that I don’t waste my breath on those that are already saved?

It is all well and good to want to evangelize to others, especially those who are not active in their faith, and to offer the possibility of a fuller truth in the Catholic Church.

Thanks.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes…’ those too may receive salvation’.

Exactly! And it’s not like they’re signed with a visible mark so that we can tell the difference between the ones that might be saved and the ones that won’t. If they were, I’d be like, “Oh, yeah, never mind.”

 

[pnewton]

??? What’s the point? Can you tell which Protestant is saved and which isn’t?

Of course not, but the same is true of Catholics. One cannot tell how individual people will be judged.

All will be saved through Jesus, and inside his body, the Church, even if they died before Jesus was born.

 

[josh987654321]

Lutherans are still our Christian brethren

That’s true.

and we are making strides to get them back into the proper fold of the Catholic Church.

Not when a Catholic celebrates the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther or holds joint services in recognition of him. Actually it does the total opposite. At best it’s deception/dishonest and at worst it’s blatant heresy, especially joint services on the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther, just plain heresy.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Note: Forgot I already posted on this thread which myself and other good posters have already said more than enough I think, this is my last word, people can take it or leave it.

Thank you for reading.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

??? What’s the point? Can you tell which Protestant is saved and which isn’t?

Of course not, but the same is true of Catholics. One cannot tell how individual people will be judged.

All will be saved through Jesus, and inside his body, the Church, even if they died before Jesus was born.

So, should we continue to evangelize Protestants, or not?

 

[pnewton]

So, should we continue to evangelize Protestants, or not?

My answer would be, sometimes, and in some ways. The Church does this through dialogue and working with other Christians. People would best follow suit, I would think. One needs to weigh where an individual is as to how best to present one’s faith.

Let me rephrase this answer. Always, but in different ways.

 

[De_Maria]

Let me rephrase this answer. Always, but in different ways.

Are you the person designated to decide which ways are appropriate to use at which times?
If so, perhaps you could enlighten us on who you know which Protestants are to be evangelized in the different ways of which you speak.

 

[pnewton]

pnewton:

Let me rephrase this answer. Always, but in different ways.

Are you the person designated to decide which ways are appropriate to use at which times?

That’s a little bit snarky. It is the Holy Father who decides what is most appropriate for the Church as a whole, the bishop who decides what is appropriate for the local faith groups in his diocese, and individuals who decide what is best for them.

I can only speak for myself. You can only decide what is appropriate for the people you know. I generally think that people lacking in charity and grace should be more cautious, lest they do more harm than good, as to those who poorly live out their Christianity. Our life is always our first witness. Our words must not contradict how we live.

For the extreme anti-Catholic, I start by simply establishing Catholicism as Christianity. Sometimes, that is as far as one can get, and it must be done mostly by one’s life.

 

[2towers]

Your right. He was most definitely a heritic, but today’s Prodistants are not, they were not there to witness Luther in person, and they should be rightly considered Christian brothers and sisters.

 

[De_Maria]

Message removed.

 

[AlNg]

Theres this little detail of the anathemas in the Council of Trent which were addressed directly at anyone who adheres to Luther’s errors.

Has this teaching on the anathemas been changed since Vatican II?

 

[De_Maria]

Has this teaching on the anathemas been changed since Vatican II?

The Council of Trent is an ecumenical Council. They used the right formula for declaring infallibly the anathemas to Luther’s teachings. It’s infallible Teaching. Vatican II didn’t change any infallible Teaching because no council has the authority to do so.

 

[Genesis315]

The way the Council of Trent uses the phrase “let him be anathema” is the same way St. Paul does:

Galatians 1:8-9
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.”

So basically, by saying “If anyone says X, let him be anathema” the Council is definitively saying that X is a different Gospel than what has been received.

The Church cannot now say those dogmatic errors–those false Gospels–are now truths. If any of those errors are still Lutheran doctrine, then Lutheran doctrine is still condemned. Obviously, if Lutheran doctrine has changed or been clarified on any point to now be orthodox, it is not condemned.