Ecumenism with the LDS Church

[jane_doe]

If anyone is interested, I started another thread about ecumenism in general, and what it means to Catholics-- forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13714637#post13714637

 

[Marie5890]

However, there have been (hopefully) isolated examples of missionaries engaging in unethical practices such as sneaking information of food bank beneficiaries for proselyting. No, I don’t have links because the blogs have gone private and the blog posts bragging about such antics have been removed. I see this happening primarily because of immaturity on the part of the missionaries and the pressure on LDS missionaries to produce numbers of contacts, discussions and baptisms. I think a lot of young Mormons would rather spend their time on missions doing real service work in the greater community rather than focusing on proselytizing.

It is this sort of the thing, plus the heavy emphasis on baptize baptize baptize, convert, convert convert, that makes everyday normal interactions with some Mormons difficult. I do sincerely hope they get away from this. Christ never hounded anyone. When it comes to “every member a missionary” etc, Mormons can be like a pressuring door to door salesman.

This is when dialogue and true friendship can have no fertile ground. It’s too conditional for some Mormons.

Again, I hope that is changing in their culture, because it HAS bee apart of the LDS cultural for a very long time.

 

[loumeland]

Here’s an out-of-the-box perspective-

Mormons seem to have a whole lot of common ground with Evangelical Protestants. In fact, as a former Mormon, I do not believe that the Book of Mormon contradicts any Protestant doctrine. Look at this interesting article: centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm

Having said that, it is easier for Mormons to have ecumental relations with Evangelicals, and then for Catholics to have ecumenical relations with Mormons *as *Evangelicals.

At any rate, there are Catholics whose writings integrate Mormons into Christendom: firstthings.com/article/2012/02/mormonism-obsessed-with-christ

Just a thought.

 

[Padres1969]

Just wanted to point our that ecumenism by definition does not apply to Mormons. This is because ecumenism is tied to our common baptism and completing the unity begun by baptism, and Mormons are not baptized.

Here’s how Cardinal Kasper (then in charge of ecumenism) explained the difference between ecumenism and interreligious dialogue (my emphasis):

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20020107_peace-kasper_en.html

I’d agree with this. Most Christians, Catholic or not, don’t accept LDS baptisms as valid. And the LDS don’t accept Christian baptisms as valid. Since ecumenism by definition is an effort at Christian unity and baptism is one of those key things that pretty much all branches of Christianity practice in one form or another it’s hard to see how traditional ecumenism could be achieved between the LDS and any other traditional Christian churches. That’s not to say joint efforts couldn’t be undertaken with the LDS by the RCC or any other Christian denomination. But true ecumenism would seem to be a non-starter.

 

[Chris-WA]

I have hopes that the part I bolded is slowly changing. esp., when you get away from the Mormon corridor.

And I do think it will continue to slowly change as their young people are more exposed to other people of faith and are less to think in binary ways.

To give you why sense it may change with their young people? BYU-Provo’s campus magazine ‘The Daily Universe’ did a poll with their students.

Majority of them are supporting…SANDERS…

That is a HUGE shift in Mormon thought and it’s in their young people

It seems that the LDS senior leadership has been more apt to draw lines in the sand rather than change. The young people, who are exposed to much more information and varying points of view (Internet, social media) than previous generations, are leaving the LDS church in large numbers. So it stands to reason that these kinds of attitudes towards others are slowly changing. But Mormons who go to Sunday school and seminary still probably get a heavy dose of the “us versus the world” attitude. This has to come to a head at some point because the leadership is doubling down at the same time the youth are rejecting it.

 

[Chris-WA]

I think right now the LDS church is trying to deal with it’s own crisis of faith in a significant amount of it’s people. esp., the youth.

Just this past week one of their GA’s gave a talk to their educational system and saying how they had to do a different and better job in preparing their young people. I know that the LDS church over the past couple of years is making strides in becoming more transparent about it’s real history and not what they have been teaching in their classes over the past decades. I think Ballard is calling for something he deemed “doctrinal mastery”. He wants the young people to be more up to date with what the LDS church as put out in it’s “essays” and wants them used.

I expect that as these young people become more educated, then more fruitful dialogue can take place. Why? Because they will then be dealing with facts, and not the revisionist history of the LDS past.

I suspect that as young Mormons become more educated on their real history instead of the romanticized fairy tale they have always been taught, they’ll do what so many others have----LEAVE. The essays don’t really answer the tough questions–they just muddy the waters more. Have you read any of them? Not good.

 

[mtolympus]

I have been saying that. I have said we should do that here instead of the attacks

 

[Marie5890]

I suspect that as young Mormons become more educated on their real history instead of the romanticized fairy tale they have always been taught, they’ll do what so many others have----LEAVE. The essays don’t really answer the tough questions–they just muddy the waters more. Have you read any of them? Not good.

I have read them. I am also aware that one of their senior leadership (Ballard) just recently had a large scale meeting with the LDS educators that they have to start using these essays and start answering the young people’s questions and not just leaning on “bearing of testimony” which has been a default stance almost exclusively.

What I find sad, abut the essays, is that in the past decade or so, there have been a number of excommunications of Mormon scholars who have wanted to talk about the truth, the facts about Mormon history. These were solid devout Mormons, intellectuals, scholars who were doing their jobs with honesty and integrity, But they were labeled “apostates” and either disfellowshipped or excommunicated.

Yet now, these essays support what these decent and honest researchers where saying in the first place.

How is LDS leadership going to give these good people their reputations after having thrown them under the bus? Have they, LDS leadership, either apologized or taken responsible for what they did to these men and women? To my knowledge, not yet.

I wonder, will they ever? Will LDS leadership ever say, " we were wrong. We sinned, we are sorry. These people were right"?

I doubt it.

What does it mean to be a Christian? Isn’t part of being a Christian recognizing when we are wrong, and repenting? Taking responsibility?

But you are right. The essays haven’t begun to get to the serious meat of the matter. It’s like the tip of the iceberg that is seen slightly above the water. But the full extent of the iceberg is below the surface.

The reality is, the information is out there, and their young people will continue to find it. It can’t be hidden.

 

[mtolympus]

Does anyone feel the Church should enter into better dialogue with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? We each represent a substantial body of believers with great influence and powerful moral authority, yet great doctrinal and theological division. I know it may be hard to engage the LDS doctrinally, given their decentralized engagement with theology and moral philosophy, but would anyone like to see Rome start taking this growing organization with greater attentiveness?

From what I have read in this thread, by definition of the word, the Catholic Church cannot enter into Ecumenism with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is good to know and I understand.

However, the actual question asked was, “Does anyone feel the Church should enter into better dialogue with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?” To this I believe the answer is yes!

 

[Marie5890]

From what I have read in this thread, by definition of the word, the Catholic Church cannot enter into Ecumenism with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is good to know and I understand.

However, the actual question asked was, “Does anyone feel the Church should enter into better dialogue with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?” To this I believe the answer is yes!

You’re right. With an understanding of what ecumenism is (and I admit I had a poor understanding), that is off the table.

That aside, what kind of better dialogue would you like to see, MtOlympus? What kind of aims and goals would you like to see accomplished with the two ?

 

[Chris-WA]

I have read them. I am also aware that one of their senior leadership (Ballard) just recently had a large scale meeting with the LDS educators that they have to start using these essays and start answering the young people’s questions and not just leaning on “bearing of testimony” which has been a default stance almost exclusively.

What I find sad, abut the essays, is that in the past decade or so, there have been a number of excommunications of Mormon scholars who have wanted to talk about the truth, the facts about Mormon history. These were solid devout Mormons, intellectuals, scholars who were doing their jobs with honesty and integrity, But they were labeled “apostates” and either disfellowshipped or excommunicated.

Yet now, these essays support what these decent and honest researchers where saying in the first place.

How is LDS leadership going to give these good people their reputations after having thrown them under the bus? Have they, LDS leadership, either apologized or taken responsible for what they did to these men and women? To my knowledge, not yet.

I wonder, will they ever? Will LDS leadership ever say, " we were wrong. We sinned, we are sorry. These people were right"?

I doubt it.

What does it mean to be a Christian? Isn’t part of being a Christian recognizing when we are wrong, and repenting? Taking responsibility?

But you are right. The essays haven’t begun to get to the serious meat of the matter. It’s like the tip of the iceberg that is seen slightly above the water. But the full extent of the iceberg is below the surface.

The reality is, the information is out there, and their young people will continue to find it. It can’t be hidden.

Excellent post. You understand the situation very well. The LDS Church owes these excommunicated scholars a HUGE apology. They excommunicated these people for daring to talk about historical issues the church now admits as true. I don’t think any apologies will be coming though. They LDS senior leadership needs to do something they ask their members to do all the time—repent. It won’t happen.

The essays are an attempt to “inoculate” members who have questions. But it’s only a smokescreen because they really can’t answer questions truthfully without destroying the church. They are between a hard and a hard place.

 

[mtolympus]

You’re right. With an understanding of what ecumenism is (and I admit I had a poor understanding), that is off the table.

That aside, what kind of better dialogue would you like to see, MtOlympus? What kind of aims and goals would you like to see accomplished with the two ?

I believe we are working better together in such things and Catholic Charities and the Colloquium of Marriage (see post #75). CAF is a great place for dialogue, which can help us understand each others beliefs and definitions. I think we have come a long way in the last 50 years.

 

[Marie5890]

I believe we are working better together in such things and Catholic Charities and the Colloquium of Marriage (see post #75). CAF is a great place for dialogue, which can help us understand each others beliefs and definitions. I think we have come a long way in the last 50 years.

Do you see the LDS Church as having pivoted more towards mainstream Christianity in those 50 years?

I see terms used now by Mormons that really weren’t used when I was LDS (although the definition of such words are different). For example the term “grace”. I have seen it used more in LDS discussions now, but never before.

I also was surprised last year during Holy Week, that the LDS website had something of an interactive page which went thru the day-by-day happenings in Our Lord’s life that week.

It was well done. Just unusual as there was no recognition of that when I was LDS (80’s-90’s)

I very much see them as pivoting towards a more traditional Christian narrative. Or at least talking more about Christ, and less about Joseph Smith and the BoM.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I believe we are working better together in such things and Catholic Charities and the Colloquium of Marriage (see post #75). CAF is a great place for dialogue, which can help us understand each others beliefs and definitions. I think we have come a long way in the last 50 years.

As long as LDS members are buying, (isn’t an Amazon sales rank of 10,584 quite high?) recommending and heaping praise on Talmage’s The Great Apostasy I see no real hope of LDS understanding Catholic beliefs or even respecting them.

 

[Marie5890]

As long as LDS members are buying, (isn’t an Amazon sales rank of 10,584 quite high?) recommending and heaping praise on Talmage’s The Great Apostasy I see no real hope of LDS understanding Catholic beliefs or even respecting them.

Is that still in print? I read his “Jesus the Christ” work, but not “The Great Apostasy” so no clue as to what he says. I wonder if he targets the Catholic Church? I know McConkie did in his early editions of “Mormon Doctrine” but the later editions removed such targeting.

I wonder if the LDS church has put the claim of “one man’s opinion” on it? I don’t recall if Talmage was a early 20th century GA? If so, his works would carry more weight than if he was not.

But even then, I have seen the trend of present day GA’s backing off the writings and preachings of past GA’s. Not in small things either, but in big things. The essay on LDS priesthood and racism is a good example of that.

I remember watching Hinckley disavow Lorenso Snow’s “As man is , God once was. As God is, man may become” on Larry King.

I was drinking a soda at that very moment, and I literally choked on the swallow.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Is that still in print? I read his “Jesus the Christ” work, but not “The Great Apostasy” so no clue as to what he says. I wonder if he targets the Catholic Church? I know McConkie did in his early editions of “Mormon Doctrine” but the later editions removed such targeting.

I wonder if the LDS church has put the claim of “one man’s opinion” on it? I don’t recall if Talmage was a early 20th century GA? If so, his works would carry more weight than if he was not.

But even then, I have seen the trend of present day GA’s backing off the writings and preachings of past GA’s. Not in small things either, but in big things. The essay on LDS priesthood and racism is a good example of that.

I remember watching Hinckley disavow Lorenso Snow’s “As man is , God once was. As God is, man may become” on Larry King.

I was drinking a soda at that very moment, and I literally choked on the swallow.

It’s available at Deseret Books (owned by the LDS church) and like I said, Amazon where one edition has an Amazon rating of 10,584, from what I’ve read that is extremely high rating, there is also a free online version which can be read here if you like. Amazon reviews run toward the 5 star.

Like this one:

Well researched and factual expose of the Roman Church. Everyone should read this for it’s historical value. You will never learn this anywhere else!

 

[mtolympus]

As long as LDS members are buying, (isn’t an Amazon sales rank of 10,584 quite high?) recommending and heaping praise on Talmage’s The Great Apostasy I see no real hope of LDS understanding Catholic beliefs or even respecting them.

You may be right for those who want to study the apostasy. But the reason for a relatively high ranking on Amazon is likely because it is harder to find at Deseret Book and other LDS Bookstores than in the past.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You may be right for those who want to study the apostasy. But the reason for a relatively high ranking on Amazon is likely because it is harder to find at Deseret Book and other LDS Bookstores than in the past.

Not sure what that has to do with anything?

It could just be put out of print, like Mormon Doctrine was. Someone keeps Talmage’s book in print, over 100 years since it was first published. It really is time to stop making new printings of it, and selling them.

 

[zaffiroborant]

You may be right for those who want to study the apostasy. But the reason for a relatively high ranking on Amazon is likely because it is harder to find at Deseret Book and other LDS Bookstores than in the past.

I don’t understand what you are saying here, Deseret books says the paperback edition ship in 2-3 days and you can get an instant digital delivery to bookshelf and that has nothing to do with it’s popularity on Amazon. The rating on Amazon just show that LDS members are buying the book, a lot.

But I do see you danced away from the content of the book and it’s vile treatment of Catholicism.

 

[mtolympus]

Do you see the LDS Church as having pivoted more towards mainstream Christianity in those 50 years?

I see terms used now by Mormons that really weren’t used when I was LDS (although the definition of such words are different). For example the term “grace”. I have seen it used more in LDS discussions now, but never before.

I also was surprised last year during Holy Week, that the LDS website had something of an interactive page which went thru the day-by-day happenings in Our Lord’s life that week.

It was well done. Just unusual as there was no recognition of that when I was LDS (80’s-90’s)

I very much see them as pivoting towards a more traditional Christian narrative. Or at least talking more about Christ, and less about Joseph Smith and the BoM.

Yes, I think so.

As for the teaching of grace. I believe the church is doing a better job of explaining and teaching about grace to the membership than it did 50 years ago. However, our doctrine has been there all along and can be summed up in one verse from the Book of Mormon:

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” (2 Nephi 10:24)

Yes, Holy Week is a wonderful tradition. In the past we have focused almost exclusively on the Atonement and Resurrection.

The Restoration has a lot of things to learn about. The Book of Mormon which teaches about Christ in America, Joseph Smith who received revelation from Christ, The Plan of Salvation which was the plan of Jesus Christ. So, I feel we focus on Christ more than it may appear.