"Ecumenism"?

[iepuras]

From where I’m setting right now the word “ecumenism”… let’s just leave that word out of it for now.

Do I believe that sharing the Gospel and conversion should happen on an individual level? Totally, if fact that’s the only level it can possibly happen on.

Objection to the word “merger”, because “merger” would imply Catholics change some too. What’s being talked about here is “assimilation”.

But yes, the choice should be at an individual level.

Again, objection the to word “reunion”.

Let’s switch this around: how about instead of them coming home to Rome, you ditch Rome and come home to Constantinople. Does that sound good?

Actually some have “gone back to Constantinople”. The Orthodox Church of America is the result of some Carpatho-Rusyn Catholics in the United States who switched to Orthodoxy because certain Roman Catholic bishops objected to the Eastern Catholics keeping their traditions such as ordain in married men. One priest (Alexis Toth) led many parishes back to the Orthodox Church and laid the foundation the the Orthodox Church of America. Frankly, I don’t blame Fr. Toth at all. The Roman bishops should have respected the unions that brought the Eastern Catholics into union with Rome. Unfortunately it is sin that has led to the various schisms and revolutions that have divided Christians. It will take humility and forgiveness to unite us again.

 

[jane_doe]

Sure. Sacred Tradition. The Church cares about preserving it in the Christian community. Through ecumenism, the ancient Tradition of the Church finds its way back into the hearts of all professing Christians, whether they be Baptist, Orthodox, or whatever.

But you have no interest in Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican Tradition. And no where in this are Catholics getting out of their pews to talk to Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican in their pews. Rather this is all going down is some porcelain tower.

I’m sorry… I’m being testy… I just… this honestly has my guts tied in knots.

 

[LivingWaters7]

But you have no interest in Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican Tradition. And no where in this are Catholics getting out of their pews to talk to Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican in their pews. Rather this is all going down is some porcelain tower.

I’m sorry… I’m being testy… I just… this honestly has my guts tied in knots.

Actually, when Orthodox and Anglican communities come into communion with the Church, their Tradition (that of course does not conflict theologically with the Church’s Tradition) is brought with them. Please research the Eastern Catholic churches, Anglican-use liturgies, etc.

 

[jane_doe]

Actually, when Orthodox and Anglican communities come into communion with the Church, their Tradition (that of course does not conflict theologically with the Church’s Tradition) is brought with them. Please research the Eastern Catholic churches, Anglican-use liturgies, etc.

Would you object to their Tradition (that which differs from yours) being taught over pulpit at your parish?

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

But you have no interest in Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican Tradition. And no where in this are Catholics getting out of their pews to talk to Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican in their pews. Rather this is all going down is some porcelain tower.

I’m sorry… I’m being testy… I just… this honestly has my guts tied in knots.

It’s not about Roman Catholic tradition vs. Baptist tradition. It’s about coming to a doctrinally accurate consensus over the two. Speaking as a former Protestant, I left very little theology behind when coming into the Church. It’d be a smoother transition than you think, and we don’t expect Anglicans to abandon their traditions as long as it doesn’t conflict with Catholic doctrine (which very little of it does).

 

[zaffiroborant]

Ok. Distilling my thoughts on the matter— again, please don’t take offense. I’m sharing my thoughts on the matter, and don’t mean to bash or anything.

1) It bothers me that people here proclaim this as “Christian unity” when it’s not. Unity would be a joining of all parties to a central ground. Rather, it’s the other person becoming Catholics and Catholics not changing at all: that’s “assimilation” not “unity”. That’s just false advertising.

Of course there is unity, the Anglicans decided to join with Catholicism because the were united in belief as opposed to the changes in belief and practice in the Anglican church. And since they originally split from Catholicism over divorce, not different beliefs what we see now is the Anglicans being reunited with the Catholics.

1. This not following Christ’s commands to go out and make disciples. Following Christ’s commands would be Catholic people getting out of the pews to go chat with Baptist people (for example) and share Catholic beliefs with them. That’s not what’s going on.

It makes no sense to have a certain process that must be followed exactly in order to fulfill the commandment. I don’t mean to be snarky here but I just don’t acknowledge that you get to tell me the prescribed steps to fulfill Christ’s commandment.

1. Instead, this strike me a lawyer theologian debating, having the Baptist theologian cease their beliefs, and then sign a documents saying “Baptist beliefs are now abolished, we’re all Catholic now and adhere to Rome”. (Yes, this is totally exaggerated way of saying things, but it’s how I feel).

I’m not sure why you feel this way, the Anglican members don’t seem to feel this way and as others have pointed out those who want to remain in the Anglican church are perfectly free to do so. Maybe it would help if you read about the Anglican’s themselves, they were the ones unhappy in their own “church home”, they were uncomfortable with the innovations in a female priesthood and gay marriage. Here is one six year old article on the subject

1. As to the Baptist believer: he’s who’s spent his life believe, and feels that Catholic doctrine is in error. No Catholic has gotten out of the pews to talk to him and share what they feel is so important. Instead he’s informed that his church is suddenly Catholic. And if he doesn’t like it, the response is “well too bad to be you, door’s over there-- we don’t care that devoted your life to this church and it’s beliefs”. (Again, this is also exaggerated).

1. Also, Catholics on this forum keep talking to me “style of worship and traditions”, but I seem to be the only person talking about beliefs. That bothers me.

You seem to think that Anglican beliefs are a world apart from Catholic beliefs, they’re not, at least they were not until the Anglican changed it’s stance on female ordination and gay marriage. The people who joined the “Anglican ordinariate” did not have their church changed to Catholic under their feet, they had the church they lived and believed in changed in little increments until they no longer felt it was their church any more.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

Would you object to their Tradition (that which differs from yours) being taught over pulpit at your parish?

Jane, I think I’ll start talking to your General Authorities about me coming to speak with un-LDS doctrine at your next general conference. If they object, that’s only because they don’t care about respecting my beliefs. (This is what it sounds like you’re saying.)

 

[Marie5890]

But you have no interest in Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican Tradition. And no where in this are Catholics getting out of their pews to talk to Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican in their pews. Rather this is all going down is some porcelain tower.

I’m sorry… I’m being testy… I just… this honestly has my guts tied in knots.

Are you kidding?

I have many an Orthodox icon, I own a Jesus prayer rope, many an Orthodox book. Have a good friend who is Orthodox who often accompanies his wife who is a parishioner at my parish. I use the “Jesus prayer” as my act of contrition in confession. Completely acceptable

You seem to be totally ignoring Eastern Catholics, who basically are Orthodox. If you were to go to a Divine Liturgy, you would see Orthodox worship.

On the Feast of St Peter and Paul, the Orthodox has a delegation and there have been times when the Patriarch of Constantinopole is present. And Rome sends delegation on the Feast of St Andrew (I believe that is the feast) .

I really don’t understand why your gut is tied in knots. Are you projecting something onto what we are saying that we have not said?

This is is making no sense to me at this point.

I still don’t understand what you seem not to be able to grasp.

 

[jane_doe]

Jane, I think I’ll start talking to your General Authorities about me coming to speak with un-LDS doctrine at your next general conference. If they object, that’s only because they don’t care about respecting my beliefs. (This is what it sounds like you’re saying.)

I’m asking if you would be ok having Anglican-specific Tradition taught from your parish pulpit. I didn’t think it was complicated question…

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

I’m asking if you would be ok having Anglican-specific Tradition taught from your parish pulpit. I didn’t think it was complicated question…

As long as it’s doctrinally accurate. Yes!

 

[RebeccaJ]

But you have no interest in Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican Tradition. And no where in this are Catholics getting out of their pews to talk to Baptist/Orthadox/Anglican in their pews. Rather this is all going down is some porcelain tower.

I’m sorry… I’m being testy… I just… this honestly has my guts tied in knots.

You are guessing, or assuming, and in so doing making a monster under your bed.

icatholic.org/article/bishops-wester-and-hayashi-plan-pulpit-exchange-4866351

“SALT LAKE CITY — As a gesture symbolic of the work being done and still in need of doing for Christian unity, the Most Rev. John C. Wester, Bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City; and the Right Rev. Scott B. Hayashi, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Utah, will preach at each other’s cathedral in upcoming weeks.” (from Intermountain Catholic, January 17, 2014)

Bishop Hayashi gave the homily at my parish, and I was there in the pew.

And sltrib.com/home/2359695-155/good-friday-procession-unites-salt-lake

"Taking symbolic steps to retrace Jesus’ path to crucifixion, pastors, priests and parishioners marched through downtown Salt Lake City as part of an interfaith Good Friday Procession of the Cross.

The route began at the Cathedral of the Madeleine and then headed to several area churches before concluding at St. Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral.

A tradition in Utah for decades, the procession unites believers from a variety of Christian denominations."

 

[LivingWaters7]

Would you object to their Tradition (that which differs from yours) being taught over pulpit at your parish?

As long as there were no theologically incorrect ideas portrayed, then I would not object. Indeed, we see that the Eastern Catholics, for hundreds of years, have maintained their [Orthodox] Tradition, including beliefs that are not found in Roman Catholicism, while still being in full communion with Rome. Indeed, the Catholic Church is actually a group of 23 churches, all united with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[zaffiroborant]

No it’s not. Please please drop this “unity” word-- you have no interest in uniting with Baptists. Rather, your interest in abolishing Baptist belief and making those people Catholics instead. That is not unity, it’s assimilation.

So? LDS missionaries do what you describe 24/7 world wide, why is it a problem if see other churches do as you describe? Besides as LDS like to tell all the churches broke off the Catholic church so why shouldn’t the aim be reunification of the break away churches?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

You are guessing, or assuming, and in so doing making a monster under your bed.

icatholic.org/article/bishops-wester-and-hayashi-plan-pulpit-exchange-4866351

“SALT LAKE CITY — As a gesture symbolic of the work being done and still in need of doing for Christian unity, the Most Rev. John C. Wester, Bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City; and the Right Rev. Scott B. Hayashi, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Utah, will preach at each other’s cathedral in upcoming weeks.” (from Intermountain Catholic, January 17, 2014)

Bishop Hayashi gave the homily at my parish, and I was there in the pew.

And sltrib.com/home/2359695-155/good-friday-procession-unites-salt-lake

"Taking symbolic steps to retrace Jesus’ path to crucifixion, pastors, priests and parishioners marched through downtown Salt Lake City as part of an interfaith Good Friday Procession of the Cross.

The route began at the Cathedral of the Madeleine and then headed to several area churches before concluding at St. Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral.

A tradition in Utah for decades, the procession unites believers from a variety of Christian denominations."

This is wonderful. I have met and heard Bishop Hayashi several times, so I am very pleased he is a part of this liturgical event. It matters.

 

[Peter_J]

On another thread we were talking about ecumenism. I’m starting this thread about ecumenism in general, to expand my limited knowledge on what this means to Catholics.

When the word “ecumenism” first came up, I’ll admit I had to look it up. Upon a quick Google search, it seem to be essentially be “churches working together”, so that’s the definition I went with (I’m a huge fan of inter-faith dialogue and cooperation).

However, as the thread continued, it seemed that people were defining this as “formally merging two churches into one”. This strikes me as odd. But upon thinking about it, it seemed something I could see like a Baptist church doing when they form their convention, made possible because their belief in the Invisible Church and local church autonomy.

Hi jane_doe. I haven’t read every post on this thread (and to be honest, it does not seem likely that I’m going to read almost 100 posts!) but concerning the definition of ecumenism as formally merging two churches into one, or more precisely two church bodies entering into a full communion agreement, I would say two things: (1) As a Catholic I believe we cannot have full communion because we don’t have doctrinal agreement. (Contrast this with, e.g., the ELCA being in full communion with the Episcopal Church.) (2) Even for Protestants, surely “entering into a full communion agreement” is not the *whole *meaning of the word ecumenism.

 

[iepuras]

I’m asking if you would be ok having Anglican-specific Tradition taught from your parish pulpit. I didn’t think it was complicated question…

Actually, “Latinizations” are highly controversial in Eastern Catholic Churches, at least in the West where Latin, Byzantine and other rites all live in the same areas. Some Eastern Catholic Churches were not very well respected in the New World and treated like they weren’t even Catholic by their fellow Catholics. So some Eastern Catholics started adopting traditions and practices of Roman Catholics while discarding their own so they would “look Catholic”. For example, the public praying of the rosary or doing Stations of the Cross in a Byzantine church while dispensing with Matins or Vespers.

Rome has been encouraging the Eastern churches to be truly Eastern and live their traditions fully. Some parishes still struggle with getting rid of Latinizations. I am lucky in that my priest, while he loves our Latin brethren, loathes Latinizations in his own church. If someone were to suggest praying the rosary in the church before Divine Liturgy, he would triple the use of incense and give us a good dousing with holy water.

This is not to say that we cannot adopt each others’ practices in our private worship. We absolutely can and it can be highly beneficial.

 

[Peter_J]

I’ll be back in a little bit, I need to calm down some.

In the meantime, might I suggest this ol’ standard?

http://cdn.randomfunnypicture.com/pictures/605dutycallsvu3.png

 

[benhur]

In the meantime, might I suggest this ol’ standard?

http://cdn.randomfunnypicture.com/pictures/605dutycallsvu3.png

On that humor i bid you goodnight (its 11:34pm)

it is not so much the wrong that hooks me, but the good feeling of possibly having a good rebuttal .

Blessings

 

[Peter_J]

On that humor i bid you goodnight (its 11:34pm)

What?! You’re going to bed after what’s been posted on this thread?

Edit: Oh wait, I just remembered that I haven’t really read this thread.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m asking if you would be ok having Anglican-specific Tradition taught from your parish pulpit. I didn’t think it was complicated question…

Homilies are for preaching about the Gospel and the Gospel is the same for all Christians. There is wide variety among homilists who are Catholic, and even some who make Catholics go, There are very Catholic Anglicans, and some of my favorite theologians and scripture commentators are Anglican! We aren’t all that far apart, and catholic Anglicans are hardly different, at all, in matters of doctrine, theology and even liturgy.

The Anglican rite existed before the Reformation, and lives on in “high” Anglican liturgy. To incorporate it back into full communion is almost a no-brainer.

The further the Protestant break offs are from the RCC, the more they have changed, and some have dropped liturgy entirely. They have changed, dropped or dramatically modified doctrines. Indeed, it would be a huge change for these churches and their members to incorporate back into full communion. But it isn’t impossible. All things are possible for God.

There isn’t an ecumenical timeline, no schedule, no goals to have X number of churches in full communion by X date. Ecumenism is a process, not a program, and it is on God’s timeline, not ours. So we cooperate with the Holy Spirit, in dialogue and respect, not pushing or threatening. Always open to the Holy Spirit in our commonality as Christians and extending good will.