Ecumenitis

[bear06]

They don’t? Um…do you have a source for that claim?

Ah, it sounds as if the good doctor has returned and has now decided sources are important although I find it funny that one ask for a link and then not click it. How’s Kansas?

 

[bear06]

Gee, Someone besides me finally says it.
However, I’d say it this way:
The SSPX are illogical in their position, and the SEDE’s are just being logical in the necessary conclusion.
That is:
BOTH believe in conscience that the Conciliar Church teaches heretical doctrine in opposition to the Perennial Magisterium.
The Sede says that heretics are not Catholic, therefore, since the “popes” are teaching or promoting/consenting heresy, then he is no longer catholic…ergo cannot be a pope.
The SSPX says that a pope can teach/promote/consent heresy but is not a manifest heretic, therefore still a pope.Such a position is against the very Magisterium they believe to uphold.
Of course I have the brilliant solution to all this and it would only take a few minutes…excluding the celebration dinner.

I’m not sure I’d classify denying the Visible Church exactly logical but, hey, to each his own.

 

[TNT]

I’m not sure I’d classify denying the Visible Church exactly logical but, hey, to each his own.

Saint Athanasius already gave us a definition of the visible church…“even if reduced to a handful…”
Besides, if woman as yurself was logical they wouldn’t be goin to Malls to “save” money.

 

[RobedWithLight]

Ah, it sounds as if the good doctor has returned and has now decided sources are important although I find it funny that one ask for a link and then not click it. How’s Kansas?

Yep. He asks for sources and then turns around and says he doesn’t click on a link on an internet message board. But linking on another site is the only practical way to quote a document that cannot be directly posted here in the forum simply because of their sheer length and the limits imposed by this forum’s rules.

Maybe we should just resume this discusion in a public library, since there are no spywares there.

 

[bear06]

Saint Athanasius already gave us a definition of the visible church…“even if reduced to a handful…”
Besides, if woman as yurself was logical they wouldn’t be goin to Malls to “save” money.

Bahahahahaha! You’re actually proving my point. Everyone thinks they are the “remnant”.

BTW, I can’t remember the last time I went to a mall. I’m a pretty savy on-line shopper though.

 

[TNT]

Bahahahahaha! You’re actually proving my point. Everyone thinks they are the “remnant”.

I know, it’s silly. But then the catholic church once thought it was the only church where salvation could be attained.
Now they have the buddhists & polygamist Muslims goin t heaven…saved by igornance & deformed conscience of all things.

 

[Formosus]

I know, it’s silly. But then the catholic church once thought it was the only church where salvation could be attained.
Now they have the buddhists & polygamist Muslims goin t heaven…saved by igornance & deformed conscience of all things.

You will find that Archbishop Lefebvre stated that those invincibly ignorant can possibly attain salvation.

 

[bear06]

You will find that Archbishop Lefebvre stated that those invincibly ignorant can possibly attain salvation.

Ooooh, I’d love that quote if you’ve got it.

 

[BobP123]

But once again, no one there’s trying to hoodwink you or even give you a false impression. A significant number of Protestants–the vast majority in some areas–would probably ask you “what’s a ‘sacrament’ and a ‘Sabbath obligation’?” Don’t suppose that’ll really make you feel any better, but the point is, Protestants aren’t trying to pull a fast one on underinformed Catholics, or to look like something they’re not–for better or worse, if someone did mistake them for the Catholic Church, they’d be happy to set you straight and not palter with the issues. Again, big difference.

Perhaps you have a point. Many Lutherans I know don’t go to Church on Sunday because it’s a mortal sin if they don’t. They go to worship God.

They also don’t worry about whether the communion they receive is valid or not. They do it because they read Scripture for themselves and believe in it. In fact, they study Christ probably a lot more than your parish priest. And some even study Latin and Greek so they can follow Christianity in the early days of the Church.

And believe it or not, some of them even abstain from meat on all Fridays and do stations of the cross regularly.

but Catholics think they stand on some higher moral ground just because they point to their supposed obedience to their pope-bishops?

 

[BobP123]

It’s the common practice of the Church that has never been challenged. You think a pope has to re-excommunicate everyone who was excommunicated by his predecessor?

There’s a reason we still abide by disciplinary canons instituted by Innocent III at the 4th Lateran Council (like having to go to confession each year) or by other disciplines like celibate priests instituted by previous popes. The Breviary issued by St. Pius X didn’t become obsolete when he passed away. The three hour Eucharistic fast didn’t automatically become abolished when Pius XII passed either.

I find it intereting that someone who claims to cling to tradition so firmly has so little knowledge of the general practices of the Church throughout history.

Good, then by your logic, all the Trent documents that excommunicate those that don’t follow all its rules still stand?

 

[TNT]

Ooooh, I’d love that quote if you’ve got it.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, Angelus Press [SSPX], p. 216: “Evidently,certain distinctions must be made. ** Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), **but not by this religion.”

---

Fr. Schmidberger, Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, Angelus Press [SSPX], p. 10: “Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error.”​

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006:
Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

 

[BobP123]

Well, it’s been about 21 yrs since the SSPX excommunication edict.
By my calculation, about 24% of today’s SSPX were born into the SSPX as children of SSPX “originals”.
So, following this “rule” only about 76% are still in “the sin of seperation”.
“Yes dear, Mommy & Daddy are in the ‘sin’ but you kids are not”).
In another 25yrs, 85% of the SSPX will be “born into ecclesial communities which resulted from schism”
If it lasts, then in 2060 we can no longer “charge the SSPX with the sin of separation”.
They will then be fully transformed into…
The Society of Salvation outside the Conciliar Church, I guess.

LOL, and all those Heretic Hotline chat rooms will beg them to join.

 

[TNT]

You will find that Archbishop Lefebvre stated that those invincibly ignorant can possibly attain salvation.

Umm, I know just about all there is to know about SSPX…I live with one.

If ever one could find a dogmatic statement that what He believes is True, then I’d give it a big hug.
Trouble is, all dogmatic pronouncements on Salvation conspicuously exclude any mention of such an idea.

Finally, If, in say, the last 1500yrs, you can name someone…anyone who was actually saved into heaven under these circumstances, I’d also give it big hug.

 

[TNT]

Bahahahahaha! You’re actually proving my point. Everyone thinks they are the “remnant”.

BTW, I can’t remember the last time I went to a mall. I’m a pretty savy on-line shopper though.

Authentic Remnant identity:

1. They Firmly believe & recite the Athanasius Creed.
2. They firmly believe & recite the Oath against Modernism.
3. They hold the Dogmatic pronouncements as they are written with no reduction or exception.
4. They are willing Proselytizers in word & deed.
5. They assist at the Mass as a Renewal of the Sacrifice of Calvary.
6. They follow the Precepts of the Church.

---

Now if a Hundu that does/believes none of this is goin to heaven, then the loyal Remnant is assured of salvation.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Authentic Remnant identity:

1. They Firmly believe & recite the Athanasius Creed.
2. They firmly believe & recite the Oath against Modernism.
3. They hold the Dogmatic pronouncements as they are written with no reduction or exception.
4. They are willing Proselytizers in word & deed.
5. They assist at the Mass as a Renewal of the Sacrifice of Calvary.
6. They follow the Precepts of the Church.

---

Now if a Hundu that does/believes none of this is goin to heaven, then the loyal Remnant is assured of salvation.

If there is a remnant, only God knows who it is. The safest place to be is firmly in the barque of Peter.

 

[bear06]

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Against the Heresies, Angelus Press [SSPX], p. 216: “Evidently,certain distinctions must be made. ** Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), **but not by this religion.”

---

Fr. Schmidberger, Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, Angelus Press [SSPX], p. 10: “Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error.”​

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006:
Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

Thanks T! How is it that I’ve missed these?

 

[TNT]

Thanks T! How is it that I’ve missed these?

Tooo much online choppin.
Actually, a lot of this stuff is in the hubs-o-hell sites & I ain’t afeared a goin there.(Actually I gotta pass).
And it ain’t no place fur a lady.

 

[bear06]

Tooo much online choppin.
Actually, a lot of this stuff is in the hubs-o-hell sites & I ain’t afeared a goin there.(Actually I gotta pass).
And it ain’t no place fur a lady.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Perhaps you have a point. Many Lutherans I know don’t go to Church on Sunday because it’s a mortal sin if they don’t. They go to worship God.

They also don’t worry about whether the communion they receive is valid or not. They do it because they read Scripture for themselves and believe in it. In fact, they study Christ probably a lot more than your parish priest. And some even study Latin and Greek so they can follow Christianity in the early days of the Church.

And believe it or not, some of them even abstain from meat on all Fridays and do stations of the cross regularly.

but Catholics think they stand on some higher moral ground just because they point to their supposed obedience to their pope-bishops?

And to be fair, if the Catholic Church is what it claims to be, then obedience to her is nothing to sneeze at. But I take your point–obligation, however holy, can be a double-edged sword.

I’d like to do the right thing once in a blue moon because righteousness appeals to me, not because I fear the fallout from unrighteousness. They say perfect love casteth out fear–and one learns that the converse holds, also.

Well, if an ecumenical moment worth celebrating ever happens, maybe it’ll involve a number of Protestants being reunited with the Church, her sacraments, and doctrines, in fair trade for reacquainting the sort of Catholics you mention with the attitudes cited above. A man can hope.

 

[BobP123]

And to be fair, if the Catholic Church is what it claims to be, then obedience to her is nothing to sneeze at. But I take your point–obligation, however holy, can be a double-edged sword.

You’re right, but it’s quite a big claim, relatively speaking.

Well, if an ecumenical moment worth celebrating ever happens, maybe it’ll involve a number of Protestants being reunited with the Church, her sacraments, and doctrines, in fair trade for reacquainting the sort of Catholics you mention with the attitudes cited above. A man can hope.

The Protestants that I live and work with are deadset in their opposition to the Church. Not surprising when you hear about all the Church scandals and seemingly poorer standing in moral leadership than they (we) once enjoyed. Yet the Church is still high-profile in the news, which is probably a good thing.