(Edited Title) Feminist Christians & logic…

[triumphguy]

Ἁγία Σοφία hagia sophia, Holy Wisdom in some Roman Catholic/Orthodox thought is more properly attributed to the Logos - the Word, Christ Himself.

The largest Church for a thousand years, the hagia sophia in Constantinople was dedicated to λόγος (Logos) the Word.

John 1:1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

The teaching of the Church is specific about the forms of the Mass. I think that if you were to be informed about the so called squabbles you would see that independently of personal preferences the belief in either forms is unique.

What I see is that you are still avoiding the way feminist address pornography, that is a fundamental issue for the feminist movement and you are not able to tell me if a feminist should be in favor or against pornography. Should women be free to choose to be treated like objects, is so should males be free to treat women like objects?

Feminists can’t agree on the subject:shrug:
Although some feel that women should be able to treat men as sex objects (the way that men have traditionally treated women) to make things more fair.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Do you have an actual argument to dispute my theory or just vague insults?

If you were to read the second statement you would understand the argument.

But its not an argument.
Its just an outrageous statement that you admit that you don’t believe in.

 

[Cristiano]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Do you have an actual argument to dispute my theory or just vague insults?

But its not an argument.
Its just an outrageous statement that you admit that you don’t believe in.

I was addressing your statement saying that it is a “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy and my other example was to indicate a similar example to show the breakdown in the logic. Let me try to give you another example of the point that I was trying to make.

I am at home I grind the coffee, pour it in the coffee filter and put it in the coffee maker, I than add water to the coffee maker and I push the start button. After that I start walking out of the room and suddenly the coffee starts percolating in the decanter. Does that mean that the coffee is finally free to come out because my presence has been removed?

This is the same think of what happened with women during the centuries, things were really bad before Christianity developed and the more Christianity developed the more society changed the basic disposition toward women. Increased recognition of the dignity of women, like a lot of other developments happened over the centuries and they were driven by Christianity becoming more and more embedded in society.

 

[jcrichton]

Wait…

Are you saying that women who act tough and assertive automatically have metaphorical male organs (i.e. are acting like a guy)?

That’s just…

To be honest, I have trouble even taking that comment seriously.

…apparently, you are not reading my posts and are not aware of the language being used in movies and shows where females that are portrayed as strong/leader/capable must subscribe to being a “b” (female dog in heat) or carrying a pair of brass “bs” (male genetalia) or wearing/being able to fill a strap (male athletic support); conversely, whenever a person is spoken of as weak/coward these great minds have decided to express it in something to the effect of "don’t be such a “p” (female genetalia)–interestingly enough both examples are written so that female characters either express it of themselves or some weak/coward female/male character… it seems that hollowood believes that man is better than woman (as a woman cannot be “the woman” but “the man”) and that a woman can only achieve equality if she is a “mr.” or “sir” or “the man” or has a pair of “bs.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Some of the language in the O.T. indicates that God had an almost spousal relationship with Israel.
If so, God could be likened to an abusive husband who smacked his wife around whenever he thought that she was mouthing off.

…yes… and some see spaceships in some of the Biblical text… the human mind is quite flexible and creative…

…how it actually goes is something like this: Yahweh God spouse of Israel who from time to time prostitutes herself with pagans and their gods… after years of rejection God allows his wife to openly defy Him but removes His Protection from her so that she can experience both her treachery and the results of bedding the power-hungry immoral lords that she courted.

…but it is clear that most people would love to have the right to do as they please while God must take it and “love them as they are.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The history of Christendom (the countries historically dominated by Christianity) disagrees with you.

Women have only gained full legal rights and protections (on par with men) within the last hundred years or so. Which its worth noting, is also the period when Christianity’s influence began to serious decline (indicating that Christianity is not the primary factor responsible for this turn of events).

I think that you are missing the whole of human history till just the turn of the century… it was considered wrong for a female to even learn to read… nuns had their convents and homes burnt to the ground because they dare teach their novices to read… societies where there’s little Church influence still have child labor, a caste system where females are less then dirt, and the intellectual modern feminists that live abroad and are enjoying legal rights don’t even speak against the horrendous genecide against the female sex that is taking place world-wide:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Middle_Ages
With the establishment of Christian monasticism, other roles within the Church became available to women. From the 5th century onward, Christian convents provided opportunities for some women to escape the path of marriage and child-rearing, acquire literacy and learning, and play a more active religious role.

…and

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights#Non-governmental_Organizations
The ancient world did not possess the concept of universal human rights.[5] Ancient societies had “elaborate systems of duties… conceptions of justice, political legitimacy, and human flourishing that sought to realize human dignity, flourishing, or well-being entirely independent of human rights”.[6] The modern concept of human rights developed during the early Modern period, alongside the European secularization of Judeo-Christian ethics.[7]

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

To be honest I think Christianity and Islam have historically looked down on women for the most part.

But while Christianity did it in somewhat patronizing and condescending way, Islam is much more brutal, and does a very poor job concealing the fact that it is a religion made by men for the benefit of men.

In practice this means that in Christian Europe men (who tend to be significantly more violent) were much more likely be executed than women.
But in Muslim lands they didn’t (and still don’t) need much reason to imprison, mutilate, or murder women.

I think this is because women were regarded in Christendom as being like children (or pets). Beloved little creatures that had to be protected from the outside world because they weren’t strong, smart, or competent enough to do it themselves.
But the Muslims don’t bother protecting their women (and in fact often abuse them instead), because they see women more like chattel/commodities.

I realize that not all Christians or Muslims are (or were) like this, but I am making generalizations to speak of the overall pattern.

…ever heard the expression “seeing things through rose-colored glasses?”

I think I can honestly say that it applies to you… women have suffered worse during any secular period than a Christian period; the fact that the Church does not ordain women as Priests is often the cause for such erroneous belief as the one you’ve put forth. When compare to any nation where secularism or non-Christian principles have flourished females have had very little power/rights that translates to true protection of the female of the species…

It has been the possitive influence of the Catholic Church that has promoted the fight for global human rights… even today the only claim that feminism has on liberating females is empowering them to and amoral lifestyle and the murder their children in their womb under the euphemism of “woman health;” interestingly enough, aborition does not only kill the baby but it causes damage (some times irreparable) to the mother who aborts {http://www.cirtl.org/syndrome.htm} (ditto the use of contraceptive agents–these, the chemical ones, are polluting and saturating the water basins to such an extent that fish-life is being affected {mercatornet.com/articles/view/medicine_that_makes_you_sick/})… in all, secular values do not always translate to better treatment of the female species (oh and check with China, India, and some other nations such as Mexico where females exist only to please men as they can be eradicated, mostly through abortion, with very little social and criminal consequence).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[bcuster]

It helps me to separate feminine/masculine characteristics from human sexual differences. God created humans male and female. He gifted men and women each with certain characteristics that are stonger in men than women and vise versa. In our development of language humans give certain words “gender.” Does this mean that the objects or ideas themselves are male or female. No. So whether you call the Holy Spirit “Ruah” or “Sophia” or Sancte Spiritus… the Holy Spirit is not feminine in the sense of being a woman. Humans are made in God’s image not the other way around.

As for feminism, if it means making sure that the dignity of women is respected, I see a point in it. Most of the feminism I see inside and outside the Church is divisive, which is the opposite of the Unity that exists within the Holy Trinity. We should not be trying to get a higher position by tearing someone else down. We are in this together, male and female, for our salvation and the salvation of others.

 

[jcrichton]

It helps me to separate feminine/masculine characteristics from human sexual differences. God created humans male and female. He gifted men and women each with certain characteristics that are stonger in men than women and vise versa. In our development of language humans give certain words “gender.” Does this mean that the objects or ideas themselves are male or female. No. So whether you call the Holy Spirit “Ruah” or “Sophia” or Sancte Spiritus… the Holy Spirit is not feminine in the sense of being a woman. Humans are made in God’s image not the other way around.

As for feminism, if it means making sure that the dignity of women is respected, I see a point in it. Most of the feminism I see inside and outside the Church is divisive, which is the opposite of the Unity that exists within the Holy Trinity. We should not be trying to get a higher position by tearing someone else down. We are in this together, male and female, for our salvation and the salvation of others.

…sadly, as the new speak in entertainment, people are being conditioned to not only seek “drama” but to create it and demand it… long gone are the days of reason… when male and female were counterparts… we are in a world the seeks to pit man against woman (conversely: parents against children and siblings against each other) in order to create that “drama.”

…what is really worse is that Christians have been buying into this ideology and we don’t even recognize the error as we assimilate all things “modern” or “politically correct” when we exchange our Yahweh centered life (theocentrism) for the mundane. :doh2:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steve53]

…sadly, as the new speak in entertainment, people are being conditioned to not only seek “drama” but to create it and demand it… long gone are the days of reason… when male and female were counterparts… we are in a world the seeks to pit man against woman (conversely: parents against children and siblings against each other) in order to create that “drama.”

…what is really worse is that Christians have been buying into this ideology and we don’t even recognize the error as we assimilate all things “modern” or “politically correct” when we exchange our Yahweh centered life (theocentrism) for the mundane. :doh2:

Maran atha!

Angel

Wise words.

The curious thing about the feminist movement is that they “defy” men, but seek their approbation.

 

[jcrichton]

Wise words.

The curious thing about the feminist movement is that they “defy” men, but seek their approbation.

…and submit to their rule… if it furthers their agenda (ie: a trans/homosexual teaching women how to be more seductive and beautiful rather than an actual woman [pageant and modeling industries])! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I was addressing your statement saying that it is a “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy and my other example was to indicate a similar example to show the breakdown in the logic. Let me try to give you another example of the point that I was trying to make.

I am at home I grind the coffee, pour it in the coffee filter and put it in the coffee maker, I than add water to the coffee maker and I push the start button. After that I start walking out of the room and suddenly the coffee starts percolating in the decanter. Does that mean that the coffee is finally free to come out because my presence has been removed?

This is the same think of what happened with women during the centuries, things were really bad before Christianity developed and the more Christianity developed the more society changed the basic disposition toward women. Increased recognition of the dignity of women, like a lot of other developments happened over the centuries and they were driven by Christianity becoming more and more embedded in society.

The main problem with that argument is:
Women’s legal and social status has dramatically improved (in the West or areas heavily influenced by the West) only within the last century or so, specifically when Western societies were becoming much more secular (i.e. less Christian or at least Christian dominated).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

…apparently, you are not reading my posts and are not aware of the language being used in movies and shows where females that are portrayed as strong/leader/capable must subscribe to being a “b” (female dog in heat) or carrying a pair of brass “bs” (male genetalia) or wearing/being able to fill a strap (male athletic support); conversely, whenever a person is spoken of as weak/coward these great minds have decided to express it in something to the effect of "don’t be such a “p” (female genetalia)–interestingly enough both examples are written so that female characters either express it of themselves or some weak/coward female/male character… it seems that hollowood believes that man is better than woman (as a woman cannot be “the woman” but “the man”) and that a woman can only achieve equality if she is a “mr.” or “sir” or “the man” or has a pair of “bs.”

Maran atha!

Angel

Men have always insulted each other by calling one another girly or otherwise implying that a man is like a woman.

Do you truly believe that this is something that modern media is responsible for?

How you account for female action heroes, something that was all but unimaginable in a more Christian/traditional society?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

…apparently, you are not reading my posts and are not aware of the language being used in movies and shows where females that are portrayed as strong/leader/capable must subscribe to being a “b” (female dog in heat) or carrying a pair of brass “bs” (male genetalia) or wearing/being able to fill a strap (male athletic support); conversely, whenever a person is spoken of as weak/coward these great minds have decided to express it in something to the effect of "don’t be such a “p” (female genetalia)–interestingly enough both examples are written so that female characters either express it of themselves or some weak/coward female/male character… it seems that hollowood believes that man is better than woman (as a woman cannot be “the woman” but “the man”) and that a woman can only achieve equality if she is a “mr.” or “sir” or “the man” or has a pair of “bs.”

Maran atha!

Angel

Strong/assertive women have traditionally been considered at least somewhat manly.
This is because Strength was considered Masculine and Weakness Feminine.

Frankly you should be happy about this:shrug:

This kind of language is a sign that the traditional worldview you so revere still has something of a hold on the modern mind.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I think that you are missing the whole of human history till just the turn of the century… it was considered wrong for a female to even learn to read… nuns had their convents and homes burnt to the ground because they dare teach their novices to read… societies where there’s little Church influence still have child labor, a caste system where females are less then dirt, and the intellectual modern feminists that live abroad and are enjoying legal rights don’t even speak against the horrendous genecide against the female sex that is taking place world-wide:

I admit that Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular treats women relatively good compared to many other religions (Islam is the first that comes to mind).

But that is not the same as saying that its attitude towards women has historically been good.

For a bit of context, here’s a section from the 1912 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia (specifically the part covering Women):

The female sex is in some respects inferior to the male sex, both as regards body and soul.

Link to source:
newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.html

P.S. According the encyclopedia entry, the one area where women are superior to men is in quiet suffering (so apparently their more high quality victims and martyrs)

 

[AngryAtheist8]

…ever heard the expression “seeing things through rose-colored glasses?”

I think I can honestly say that it applies to you… women have suffered worse during any secular period than a Christian period; the fact that the Church does not ordain women as Priests is often the cause for such erroneous belief as the one you’ve put forth. When compare to any nation where secularism or non-Christian principles have flourished females have had very little power/rights that translates to true protection of the female of the species…

It has been the possitive influence of the Catholic Church that has promoted the fight for global human rights… even today the only claim that feminism has on liberating females is empowering them to and amoral lifestyle and the murder their children in their womb under the euphemism of “woman health;” interestingly enough, aborition does not only kill the baby but it causes damage (some times irreparable) to the mother who aborts {http://www.cirtl.org/syndrome.htm} (ditto the use of contraceptive agents–these, the chemical ones, are polluting and saturating the water basins to such an extent that fish-life is being affected {mercatornet.com/articles/view/medicine_that_makes_you_sick/})… in all, secular values do not always translate to better treatment of the female species (oh and check with China, India, and some other nations such as Mexico where females exist only to please men as they can be eradicated, mostly through abortion, with very little social and criminal consequence).

Maran atha!

Angel

Mexico has had Catholicism as the official religion for the majority of its history.
If it has an anti-female bias it would be more natural to assume that Catholicism was somewhat responsible.

 

[Ranp]

God has no gender, so what difference does it make to you what gender pronouns someone uses? God isn’t a “he” any more than a “she” so why is this a big deal to you?

God is always referred to in a masculine manner, never in a feminine manner. Through the Old Testament, the New Testament, and in Holy Tradition God was referenced as He or Him, but never as She. It is just wrong and disrespectful to refer to God or the Holy Spirit in a feminine manner.

Ran

 

[AngryAtheist8]

…ever heard the expression “seeing things through rose-colored glasses?”

I think I can honestly say that it applies to you… women have suffered worse during any secular period than a Christian period; the fact that the Church does not ordain women as Priests is often the cause for such erroneous belief as the one you’ve put forth. When compare to any nation where secularism or non-Christian principles have flourished females have had very little power/rights that translates to true protection of the female of the species…
It has been the possitive influence of the Catholic Church that has promoted the fight for global human rights… even today the only claim that feminism has on liberating females is empowering them to and amoral lifestyle and the murder their children in their womb under the euphemism of “woman health;” interestingly enough, aborition does not only kill the baby but it causes damage (some times irreparable) to the mother who aborts {http://www.cirtl.org/syndrome.htm} (ditto the use of contraceptive agents–these, the chemical ones, are polluting and saturating the water basins to such an extent that fish-life is being affected {mercatornet.com/articles/view/medicine_that_makes_you_sick/})… in all, secular values do not always translate to better treatment of the female species (oh and check with China, India, and some other nations such as Mexico where females exist only to please men as they can be eradicated, mostly through abortion, with very little social and criminal consequence).

Maran atha!

Angel

Actually, in the Middle East and many other areas women have been treated better by secular regimes than any other. And in places (like Egypt today or Iran in the 1970s) where secularist regimes have fallen and been replaced by overtly religious ones the rights and status of women has been substantially reduced.

 

[Ranp]

Mexico has had Catholicism as the official religion for the majority of its history.
If it has an anti-female bias it would be more natural to assume that Catholicism was somewhat responsible.

Official religion of Mexico?

History…read…you really really need to…

Ran