EDITED: Trying to figure out what Jesus wants with regard to most political issues is stupid

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Connie Conservative says, “I think a minimum wage increases unemployment by increasing the cost of human labor and incentivizing automation, and brings those who in a free market would be more marginal earners into competition with higher earners, and is bad for the poor.”
Kenny Keynesian answers, “Well, I think minimum wage helps the poor, and off-sets its effects on unemployment by stimulating the economy, and is good for the poor.”

In stead of testing those claims, why don’t we yell at each other about how Jesus agrees with me and not you!

Connie Conservative says, “I agree with most economists that rent control actually causes a shortage in apartments, tends to help the wealthy who have time to monitor prices, and is actually bad for the poor.”
Kenny Keynesian says, “I think that rent control is an efficient way to control prices and help stop homelessness.”
Then, because they are both Catholic, instead of investigating the rigor of their theories, they yell at each other on how Jesus wants a very specific rent control policy, because of the Epistle of Jude and a little known passage in Deuteronomy, and because Leo the somethingth said that theoretically there was nothing wrong with it if it would actually help.

Connie Conservative says, “Inflation is especially bad for the poor because of Cantillon effects.”
Kenny Keynesian says, “Cantillon effects are exaggerated and the poor are especially helped by inflation as borrowers.”
Who’s right? Ask Habbakuk!

The real problem with theocracy is that people decide on the basis of religion, questions on which religion has no baring.
This is, by the way, the fundamental problem with Liberation Theology.
Gus: “God wants my government program.”
J.P. “How do we know God wants your program?”
Gus: “It helps the poor.”
J.P.: “How do we know it helps the poor?”
Gus: “Because God wants it.”
 
Can you link me to someone who claims Jesus wants a higher minimum wage or rent control?
 
claymcdermott said:
Connie Conservative says, “I think a minimum wage increases unemployment by increasing the cost of human labor and incentivizing automation, and brings those who in a free market would be more marginal earners into competition with higher earners, and is bad for the poor.”
Kenny Keynesian answers, “Well, I think minimum wage helps the poor, and off-sets its effects on unemployment by stimulating the economy, and is good for the poor.”

In stead of testing those claims, why don’t we yell at each other about how Jesus agrees with me and not you!

Connie Conservative says, “I agree with most economists that rent control actually causes a shortage in apartments, tends to help the wealthy who have time to monitor prices, and is actually bad for the poor.”
Kenny Keynesian says, “I think that rent control is an efficient way to control prices and help stop homelessness.”
Then, because they are both Catholic, instead of investigating the rigor of their theories, they yell at each other on how Jesus wants a very specific rent control policy, because of the Epistle of Jude and a little known passage in Deuteronomy, and because Leo the somethingth said that theoretically there was nothing wrong with it if it would actually help.

Connie Conservative says, “Inflation is especially bad for the poor because of Cantillon effects.”
Kenny Keynesian says, “Cantillon effects are exaggerated and the poor are especially helped by inflation as borrowers.”
Who’s right? Ask Habbakuk!

The real problem with theocracy is that people decide on the basis of religion, questions on which religion has no baring.
This is, by the way, the fundamental problem with Liberation Theology.
Gus: “God wants my government program.”
J.P. “How do we know God wants your program?”
Gus: “It helps the poor.”
J.P.: “How do we know it helps the poor?”
Gus: “Because God wants it.”
Click to expand...
No. The problem with theocracy is orthodox vs heterodox.

If you are a orthodox Catholic, living in an orthodox Catholic theocracy, you shouldn’t have any problems. But if one (person or theocracy) is orthodox while the other is heterodox, then you have issues (even if only partly heterodox).

Theocracy is dead in the Western world because of the Protestant revolution. Protestants didn’t want to live under Catholic rule and Catholics didn’t want to live under protestant rule.

Minority religions in a theocracy can be easily accommodated, so different religions isn’t the issue. The issue is when heterodoxy isn’t a small minority.

Also, protestants and some other religions often view religious authority resting solely with Scripture and allow for personal interpretation, which means that everyone is their own human authority. If you are unwilling to submit to your religious authority, then theocracy doesn’t work either. You wind up with too many rebels.

God Bless
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Can you link me to someone who claims Jesus wants a higher minimum wage or rent control?
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Well, I believe God would desire anyone who works a job to be compensated, to a point, they can afford to care for themselves, this means, affording a roof over their head, feeding themselves, some kind of transportation (car, bus, subway), their time is worth more what the current minimum wage is.

Plus the fact the employer is legally forced to pay someone a certain amount, thats akin to telling them, if we were allowed, we would pay you less. Its absolutely crazy to lump so many people into one pay rate, I see many entry level cashiers at my company, and they are all much different, some work hard, some dont, no two are remotely alike…now, to pay all these people the same exact rate, thats ridiculous, how hard would it be to come up with a pre-hire skills test to determine what kind of worker the person is and base their pay off that?

My position, as a corporate rep, I make close to 3 times the minimum wage in my state, but in terms of actual work (bringing profit into the company), the low level employees contribute MUCH more than I do, and they work a heck of a lot harder than myself, not to mention, the rules and restrictions on them are crazy, if they are just 2 minutes late for any shift, its an automatic write up, if they dont do other certain things, its automatic penalties, Although I work for the same company, I dont have those rules, I have certain goals and deadlines to meet each month and its up to me to complete them, I basically write my own schedule…what makes me any different?

I can think of many low level employees that would be able to do my job as well or even better than I am if they were trained right. It all boils down to greed imo, companies just dont want to pay the majority of the workforce more money, they have to keep them at a certain ‘level’, which keeps them working so hard. Jesus would desire everyone to be treated fairly, Id like to see some figures on how much profit a minimum wage employee actually brings into a company in terms of work.

Also, if the low level employees were to get a raise to a more appropriate rate ($15.), I would certainly not expect a raise because of this, Im already content with my pay and am able to afford what I need to survive, more would always be better, but Im content at my rate, for the work I do.
 
The problem in removing any sort of discussion of God from politics is that politics is, how ever imperfectly, we as a large group of people try to decide our collective laws and fates. Our beliefs including religion or anything else will always inform our politics.
 
Stink_cat, two hours after you, a commenter says that he actually thinks this thing you seem to think no one is saying. And, because you constantly hear this kind of stuff if you live in America or the UK, I very confidently googled “Jesus/ minimum wage,” and immediately found on the first page:
huffingtonpost.com/nancy-graham-holm/jesus-wants-an-ethical-mi_b_7177658.html
Because Google, is easy, and that took me two seconds.
And we are living in two radically different planets if you don’t hear priests, bishops, politicians, news writers, anchormen, entire political parties, and average people, appeal to Christianity for their economic positions.
 
claymcdermott said:
Stink_cat, two hours after you, a commenter says that he actually thinks this thing you seem to think no one is saying. And, because you constantly hear this kind of stuff if you live in America or the UK, I very confidently googled “Jesus/ minimum wage,” and immediately found on the first page:
huffingtonpost.com/nancy-graham-holm/jesus-wants-an-ethical-mi_b_7177658.html
Because Google, is easy, and that took me two seconds.
And we are living in two radically different planets if you don’t hear priests, bishops, politicians, news writers, anchormen, entire political parties, and average people, appeal to Christianity for their economic positions.
Click to expand...
On these forums, I have rarely seen people argue that their religious beliefs require a particular policy. For example, many on these forums have argued against the minimum wage, but almost all of them admit that this is an area for prudential judgement. I see the same response on the other side as well.
 
And mikekle, your post is exactly my point.

Your entire post is about how it would be moral and nice and fair and Jesus approved if we raised the minimum wage, and at no point do you consider the possibility that it might actually hurt the poor because of unintended consequences.

So, would Jesus approve the idea if Connie Conservative from my little dialogue in the OP is right about its effects on the poor? I hope not, because in that scenario, Jesus hates poor people.

Everyone already agrees that it stinks to be poor. What we don’t agree on is whether your idea is a good idea, or a terrible idea that will achieve the exact opposite of what you putatively want.
You assume from the get-go that the only argument is between you and people who hate poor people, rather than between you and people who disagree about whether the minimum wage would actually increase unemployment and hurt the poor.

This is the problem with preening.
 
Perhaps stink_cat, but I meant in the wider world where it is quite common, so, maybe you thought I meant on these forums, in which case that’s a miscommunication.
 
claymcdermott said:
And mikekle, your post is exactly my point.

Your entire post is about how it would be moral and nice and fair and Jesus approved if we raised the minimum wage, and at no point do you consider the possibility that it might actually hurt the poor because of unintended consequences.
Click to expand...
On the other hand, there are those who argue against the minimum wage, who at no point ever consider the possibility that it might help the poor. In debates regarding economic policy there is often a lack of humility, which is very necessary when considering economic issues.
So, would Jesus approve the idea if Connie Conservative from my little dialogue in the OP is right about its effects on the poor? I hope not, because in that scenario, Jesus hates poor people.
Click to expand...
Everyone already agrees that it stinks to be poor. What we don’t agree on is whether your idea is a good idea, or a terrible idea that will achieve the exact opposite of what you putatively want.
You assume from the get-go that the only argument is between you and people who hate poor people, rather than between you and people who disagree about whether the minimum wage would actually increase unemployment and hurt the poor.
Click to expand...
This is the problem with preening.
Click to expand...
Like I said, a little more humility on both sides would improve the argument dramatically.
 
Society (not the government) has a responsibility to take care of the people who cannot get jobs because there are not enough jobs.

Meaning: if a society has enough jobs for only 93% of the population to have jobs to allow them a home, food to eat, etc; then society should take care of the remaining 7%. Either via families, churches, charities, etc.

The problem with the government taking care of them is that soon have people who are not part of that 7% asking for government handouts because they don’t want to work the jobs that are available to the 93%.

When you raise the minimum wage, you actually reduce the number of minimum wage jobs. Furthermore, minimum wage jobs are supposed to be entry level jobs (aka for kids, etc) to get work experience. Minimum wage jobs are not intended to raise a family on. When the government raises the minimum wage, it also forces companies with large minimum wage workforces (fast food, retail, etc) to decrease the number of lower level management jobs. Those lower level management jobs help employees gain management experience necessary to make lateral and upward career changes. But when the minimum wage increases, lower management jobs are eliminated in favor of splitting responsibilities between higher level management and “team leads.”

Jesus want us sheep (not the government) to be our brother’s keeper and to teach our fellow man how to fish for himself.

God Bless
 
My point is not whether or not any of the things discussed in the OP are wise or unwise - my point is that you can’t settle them with appeals to Catholicism.
 
phil19034 said:
Society (not the government) has a responsibility to take care of the people who cannot get jobs because there are not enough jobs.

Meaning: if a society has enough jobs for only 93% of the population to have jobs to allow them a home, food to eat, etc; then society should take care of the remaining 7%. Either via families, churches, charities, etc.

The problem with the government taking care of them is that soon have people who are not part of that 7% asking for government handouts because they don’t want to work the jobs that are available to the 93%.

When you raise the minimum wage, you actually reduce the number of minimum wage jobs. Furthermore, minimum wage jobs are supposed to be entry level jobs (aka for kids, etc) to get work experience. Minimum wage jobs are not intended to raise a family on. When the government raises the minimum wage, it also forces companies with large minimum wage workforces (fast food, retail, etc) to decrease the number of lower level management jobs. Those lower level management jobs help employees gain management experience necessary to make lateral and upward career changes. But when the minimum wage increases, lower management jobs are eliminated in favor of splitting responsibilities between higher level management and “team leads.”

Jesus want us sheep (not the government) to be our brother’s keeper and to teach our fellow man how to fish for himself.

God Bless
Click to expand...
Around here, its not kids that are the majority at fast food, convenient store type jobs, I have 53 stores in my district alone (large gas station/ convenience store chain), most minimum wage cashier employees range from late 20s to mid 40s. Most of the younger employees do not last over a week, they either dont show up or do not want to do anything at work.

The staffing problem we have is, many are not able to pass the background check or drug screen, this has really caused a major staffing problem in all the states we have stores in the last 3-5 years. Thankfully, it looks like we are going to be lowering the standard a bit in order to get more employees hired.

Decades ago, it used to be all younger kids at these job, you are right about that, but its much different nowadays.
 
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