EF Gestures in OF, allowed?

[silvergrasshopp]

In a parish where Masses are always offered Ad-Orientem, I saw several times that priests say the OF while making gestures and movements that are usually done only in EF. So if the OF is in English, during the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest uses the Roman Canon and does something like this:

(places hands upon the Altar and bows)
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
(kisses the Altar and then stands erect)
that you accept and bless
(makes the sign of cross three times over the oblata)
these gifts (+), these offerings (+),
these holy and unblemished sacrifices (+),
(extends hands)
which we offer … and so on.

Moreover, during the offertory, the priest uses the EF movements as well. As far as I know, for instance, in the OF, the priest should not make sign of cross over the oblata as it is done in EF during “Veni, sanctificator”, but I saw the priest does so (I wonder what prayer does he say while performing that movement ). He also kisses the altar before turning to the people and say “Pray brethren…”.

Sometimes I see a priest who makes sign of cross at the end of Gloria and Credo, makes sign of cross at Sanctus during “Benedictus qui venit”, even genuflects during “et incarnatus est” at the Credo, all in the OF.

Don’t these performances of EF movements in the OF, especially the ones done during the Canon, violate the rubrics? (I, personally, feel very distracted. I got the same feeling as when a priest does liturgical abuses. )

 

[Generic_Name]

I would figure one should always follow the rubrics for the form being celebrated.

 

[peter26]

through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
(kisses the Altar and then stands erect)

This is done in the Ordinariate Use.

 

[Windmill]

You’re like me: you know too much about liturgy to be blissfully ignorant of minor abuses. I wouldn’t let it distract you. I used to get annoyed when people would cross themselves in the OF after the Penitential Rite (May Almighty God bless, us, protect us from all evil, and bring us to everlasting life). It isn’t called for in the rubrics of the OF. It is done after the Indulgentiam in the EF, but many people artificially imported that gesture into the OF even thought the Indulgentiam prayer was removed from Mass. That used to bother me.

Now? Meh.

There are only so many hours you are given on earth. Concentrate on your prayer time and the graces you receive from the Eucharist. Be a missionary in your community by spreading the light of Christ to a dark world. This type of stuff (liturgical policing) is not something God calls laymen to. The “mutual gravitation” that Benedict XVI called for with the OF and EF is going to play out very slowly. I’d let the clergy handle it. Don’t write letters to the bishop and don’t bother Father about it. Pray for him and our church. We need it.

In the end, if you don’t get to Heaven but you had perfect liturgy, what have you accomplished?

 

[Mintaka]

If you read the original documents carefully, you see that a lot of EF gestures are assumed to be used in the OF. Even if they are not explicitly named.

The original Trent EF documents did the same thing.

Some stuff you’re just supposed to know and to have learned. It’s a continuity thing.

 

[DaveBj]

You’re like me: you know too much about liturgy to be blissfully ignorant of minor abuses. I wouldn’t let it distract you. I used to get annoyed when people would cross themselves in the OF after the Penitential Rite (May Almighty God bless, us, protect us from all evil, and bring us to everlasting life). It isn’t called for in the rubrics of the OF. It is done after the Indulgentiam in the EF, but many people artificially imported that gesture into the OF even thought the Indulgentiam prayer was removed from Mass. That used to bother me.

Now? Meh.

There are only so many hours you are given on earth. Concentrate on your prayer time and the graces you receive from the Eucharist. Be a missionary in your community by spreading the light of Christ to a dark world. This type of stuff (liturgical policing) is not something God calls laymen to. The “mutual gravitation” that Benedict XVI called for with the OF and EF is going to play out very slowly. I’d let the clergy handle it. Don’t write letters to the bishop and don’t bother Father about it. Pray for him and our church. We need it.

In the end, if you don’t get to Heaven but you had perfect liturgy, what have you accomplished?

Wow! +1, for sure!

 

[LiamQ]

In the end, if you don’t get to Heaven but you had perfect liturgy, what have you accomplished?

The problem is not about policing the Holy Mass simply for its own sake, but in slowly being aware of the inherent problems of the Novus Ordo as it is celebrated in many of our parishes, and of making a decision based on those problems precisely for the good of our souls.

People often, forgive me, act a bit holier than thou with regard to these question. Windmill, I am by no means insinuating you are this sort of person, but we are often told to simply ignore the minor abuses because, after all, what can we do? Shouldn’t we simply be Saintly and detached from all of this, and, somehow focus on our prayers?

But yet, all of these “minor abuses” exist because there is a structure inherent in the OF which makes them far easier to come across, and there is a mentality in our Priests which make tinkering and personalization far more common than ever before.

Ignoring the problem and leaving it to others is one course of action. Finding a parish where these abuses are few is another. And yet another still is in returning to the EF altogether.

I don’t say that the first of these three options is the only one that is the holy choice, or the one which will lead to the most graces and, therefore, to the greatest chance of dying in a state of grace. In fact, I find the third option to be the highest predictor of such things, while quite agreeing that perhaps the OF in general should be left to further work out and tinker with and fix and mend and do whatever else needs to be done by those who have some sort of authority over these things.

 

[Neofight]

In a parish where Masses are always offered Ad-Orientem, I saw several times that priests say the OF while making gestures and movements that are usually done only in EF. So if the OF is in English, during the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest uses the Roman Canon and does something like this:

(places hands upon the Altar and bows)
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
(kisses the Altar and then stands erect)
that you accept and bless
(makes the sign of cross three times over the oblata)
these gifts (+), these offerings (+),
these holy and unblemished sacrifices (+),
(extends hands)
which we offer … and so on.

Moreover, during the offertory, the priest uses the EF movements as well. As far as I know, for instance, in the OF, the priest should not make sign of cross over the oblata as it is done in EF during “Veni, sanctificator”, but I saw the priest does so (I wonder what prayer does he say while performing that movement ). He also kisses the altar before turning to the people and say “Pray brethren…”.

Sometimes I see a priest who makes sign of cross at the end of Gloria and Credo, makes sign of cross at Sanctus during “Benedictus qui venit”, even genuflects during “et incarnatus est” at the Credo, all in the OF.

Don’t these performances of EF movements in the OF, especially the ones done during the Canon, violate the rubrics? (I, personally, feel very distracted. I got the same feeling as when a priest does liturgical abuses. )

Feel like we need a guy in a striped shirt with a whistle:shrug:

 

[thistle]

In a parish where Masses are always offered Ad-Orientem, I saw several times that priests say the OF while making gestures and movements that are usually done only in EF. So if the OF is in English, during the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest uses the Roman Canon and does something like this:

(places hands upon the Altar and bows)
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
(kisses the Altar and then stands erect)
that you accept and bless
(makes the sign of cross three times over the oblata)
these gifts (+), these offerings (+),
these holy and unblemished sacrifices (+),
(extends hands)
which we offer … and so on.

Moreover, during the offertory, the priest uses the EF movements as well. As far as I know, for instance, in the OF, the priest should not make sign of cross over the oblata as it is done in EF during “Veni, sanctificator”, but I saw the priest does so (I wonder what prayer does he say while performing that movement ). He also kisses the altar before turning to the people and say “Pray brethren…”.

Sometimes I see a priest who makes sign of cross at the end of Gloria and Credo, makes sign of cross at Sanctus during “Benedictus qui venit”, even genuflects during “et incarnatus est” at the Credo, all in the OF.

Don’t these performances of EF movements in the OF, especially the ones done during the Canon, violate the rubrics? (I, personally, feel very distracted. I got the same feeling as when a priest does liturgical abuses. )

Who are you to say abuses took place. Did you have the courtesy to actually talk to the priest about any concerns you had??

 

[pianistclare]

In a parish where Masses are always offered Ad-Orientem, I saw several times that priests say the OF while making gestures and movements that are usually done only in EF. So if the OF is in English, during the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest uses the Roman Canon and does something like this:

(places hands upon the Altar and bows)
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
(kisses the Altar and then stands erect)
that you accept and bless
(makes the sign of cross three times over the oblata)
these gifts (+), these offerings (+),
these holy and unblemished sacrifices (+),
(extends hands)
which we offer … and so on.

“Performances?” Wow.
I do make the sign of the cross…I don’t care WHO says I can’t.
It’s a prayer of absolution. My priest has never called me out on it.
I don’t think anyone should be that bent out of shape over these things.

Moreover, during the offertory, the priest uses the EF movements as well. As far as I know, for instance, in the OF, the priest should not make sign of cross over the oblata as it is done in EF during “Veni, sanctificator”, but I saw the priest does so (I wonder what prayer does he say while performing that movement ). He also kisses the altar before turning to the people and say “Pray brethren…”.

Sometimes I see a priest who makes sign of cross at the end of Gloria and Credo, makes sign of cross at Sanctus during “Benedictus qui venit”, even genuflects during “et incarnatus est” at the Credo, all in the OF.

Don’t these performances of EF movements in the OF, especially the ones done during the Canon, violate the rubrics? (I, personally, feel very distracted. I got the same feeling as when a priest does liturgical abuses. )

 

[goout]

You’re like me: you know too much about liturgy to be blissfully ignorant of minor abuses. I wouldn’t let it distract you. I used to get annoyed when people would cross themselves in the OF after the Penitential Rite (May Almighty God bless, us, protect us from all evil, and bring us to everlasting life). It isn’t called for in the rubrics of the OF. It is done after the Indulgentiam in the EF, but many people artificially imported that gesture into the OF even thought the Indulgentiam prayer was removed from Mass. That used to bother me.

Now? Meh.

There are only so many hours you are given on earth. Concentrate on your prayer time and the graces you receive from the Eucharist. Be a missionary in your community by spreading the light of Christ to a dark world. This type of stuff (liturgical policing) is not something God calls laymen to. The “mutual gravitation” that Benedict XVI called for with the OF and EF is going to play out very slowly. I’d let the clergy handle it. Don’t write letters to the bishop and don’t bother Father about it. Pray for him and our church. We need it.

In the end, if you don’t get to Heaven but you had perfect liturgy, what have you accomplished?

Praise God for the wisdom you posted here!

 

[malphono]

Don’t these performances of EF movements in the OF, especially the ones done during the Canon, violate the rubrics? (I, personally, feel very distracted. I got the same feeling as when a priest does liturgical abuses. )

Seems to me it all depends. IMO, if what rubrics there are in the Novus Ordo say something different, then I’d say yes. If, however, those scant rubrics do not specify anything to the contrary, then I’d say no, it’s fine and does not violate anything.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

In a parish where Masses are always offered Ad-Orientem, I saw several times that priests say the OF while making gestures and movements that are usually done only in EF. So if the OF is in English, during the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest uses the Roman Canon and does something like this

(places hands upon the Altar and bows)
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
(kisses the Altar and then stands erect)
that you accept and bless
(makes the sign of cross three times over the oblata)
these gifts (+), these offerings (+),
these holy and unblemished sacrifices (+),
(extends hands)
which we offer … and so on

Moreover, during the offertory, the priest uses the EF movements as well /…/ He also kisses the altar before turning to the people and say “Pray brethren…”

Sometimes I see a priest who makes sign of cross at the end of Gloria and Credo, makes sign of cross at Sanctus during “Benedictus qui venit”, even genuflects during “et incarnatus est” at the Credo, all in the OF

Don’t these performances of EF movements in the OF, especially the ones done during the Canon, violate the rubrics? (I, personally, feel very distracted. I got the same feeling as when a priest does liturgical abuses

Your initial question, EF Gestures in OF, allowed?, doesn’t admit of a “one size fits all” answer

There are gestures from the Vetus Ordo one can use in the Novus Ordo without violence to either liturgical usage. For example, across all the years, I’ve always continued to hold together my thumb and forefinger of each hand from the consecration until the purification of the vessels after Communion. It’s neither prescribed nor proscribed

There are other elements that were set aside but if an individual celebrant chose to do them…such as continuing to cross the stole or wear a maniple…personally I would not make great issue of it but would see it as an idiosyncrasy of that priest

Beginning with the slighter issues you raise…you note that “sometimes” you see what you describe in the second half of your post. As one who had celebrated the Vetus Ordo and the Novus Ordo in Latin and various languages/liturgical settings, a priest can be forgiven a momentary lapse and of doing what is proper in one situation in another circumstance

There are also two occasions in the Novus Ordo when the liturgy prescribes genuflecting at the Et incarnatus est in the Creed. If the priest is doing it at any other occasion, instead of the prescribed bow, he acted wrongly. That’s not to say that he acted culpably

As for wondering what the priest says when he is praying sotto voce, personally I say all the prescribed inaudible prayers in Latin as I celebrate Mass in so many languages, it saves me a bit to do those prayers which are prescribed as inaudible in Latin and from memory

If the priest is otherwise adding inaudible prayers of his own devotion, such as the old prayers to accompany the incensing of the altar, for example, I would hardly raise that as an issue personally…presuming they are not disrupting the rite or inordinately extending it

What you describe with the anaphora, however, is of an entirely different magnitude and if this is pervading the entire celebration, that is a real problem. Far more than any distraction they may cause those in the congregation, they do violence to the integrity that is due to the rite itself. The Vetus Ordo and the Novus Ordo are to exist side by side – but they are not to be interchangeable. It’s as wrong to apply the Tridentine rubrics to a Novus Ordo Mass as, frankly, it would be to apply the Novus Ordo rubrics for the Eucharistic Prayer to a Vetus Ordo Mass

Neither the priest – nor even a bishop in this instance – has been granted the latitude by the Holy See to expropriate the rubrics from one form of the Roman liturgy and impose it upon the other; to do so would be to create a hybrid that is not, in fact, licit

The practical problem you confront is that few people in the pew are in a position to have an in-depth discussion with the priest perpetrating such things nor is he always accommodating of such a discussion. And, of course, people in the pews are not at all in a position to impose a solution, as his bishop would be…or one who acts with the bishop’s delegated authority to resolve perpetration of liturgical irregularities

There are reasons why these gestures were eliminated from the Novus Ordo and addressing a situation like this often involves a discussion ranging across theology and canon law as well as the proper application of rubrics – and, sometimes, finally the reminder of the priest’s required submission to ecclesiastical authority. This is better handled by one who is an ecclesiastical authority rather than one who asserts that the priest should obey authority

As a priest and professor of liturgy, I’ve had experience in dealing with this sort of issue, unfortunately, and the need to overcome and resolve such matters

I’ll just say that the best suggestion I can offer is for you to inform your diocese’s office of liturgy and worship of what is occurring so that they may take appropriate action to help your priest correctly apply the rubrics. And indeed, in a case of this magnitude, you should make them aware

• And before someone asks, yes, I am quite aware of the provisions for those who use the Missal of Divine Worship. I am not herein addressing that as they are an exceptional community, with their own proper norms conceded to them and with their own hierarchy, and they are a community apart. *

 

[corsair]

Gotta keep an eye peeled for the Gesture Police

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I do make the sign of the cross…I don’t care WHO says I can’t.

It’s a prayer of absolution. My priest has never called me out on it.
I don’t think anyone should be that bent out of shape over these things.

But, to be clear, the situations are simply not comparable.

The priest has an obligation, all else being equal, to comply with the rubrics established for him to follow in the form of the celebration he is celebrating. He CAN deviate from them in so far as the norms make provision…but he SHOULD do so with discretion and not wantonly and within what the provisions accommodate. It deserves to be said that not all rubrics have the same weight or the same significance. One who is a liturgical expert would be able to make the distinctions without need of long reflection.

The priest, however, may not decide to apply the rubrics in toto of the Vetus Ordo when he is celebrating a Mass in the Novus Ordo any more than he may decide to use the Novus Ordo rubrics while celebrating a Vetus Ordo Mass.

A Presider is capable of engendering liturgical chaos in situations such as the original poster describes and the liturgical assembly would be left rather like a body whose head is causing an episode of dysphoria.

On the other hand, as the Council Fathers saw as essential, needed rubrics were provided to govern the behaviour of the laity who complete the liturgical assembly outside the confines of the sanctuary.

The Holy See has made clear, particularly in pronouncements by Cardinal Arinze for example, that the application of these rubrics is not to be seen as being so strict that one is to punish every variance of them. They are more in the nature of the expression of what is desirable in a given moment. It may not happen thus…and for very good reason

As an example: rubrics prescribe when the celebrant and the people are to variously kneel, sit and stand. It will happen that there are people in the congregation who physically cannot stand or kneel. They should not…and they do not need to…seek a dispensation. The priest, on the other hand, cannot publicly preside at Mass in a wheelchair or otherwise seated without seeking the permission of the Ordinary. The rubrics bind differently. (Obviously, it can happen that a priest is taken ill in the midst of Mass and chooses to complete the rite while seated. It should go without saying that this is quite licit, if this allows the priest to complete the Holy Sacrifice.)

Thus there is no particular harm for you personally making the sign of the Cross at the penitential rite. And the priest has no reason to ask you not to do it. That same measure does not apply to the priest celebrant, however.

As for another comment in the thread about being disturbed by people who do things that are not prescribed or beyond what is prescribed…that is often an issue one must simply offer up. If this or that person wishes to adopt the orans gesture, then they do. That is not disruptive in the way that twirling a baton or hurling oneself about as gymnasts do in their exercises would cause disturbance and distraction…and should be made to stop

The gathering of the People of God is supposed to be a liturgical assembly…not an assembly of automatons executing a series of maneuvers with military like precision. That would be infelicitous.

 

[MissRose73]

I do cross myself when the priest says the prayer after the penitential rite is done. I also cross myself when the host then the chalice are elevated during the consecration. I also cross myself after receiving the body then the blood of Christ. I sometimes will cross myself after the homily is done like in the EF. I sometimes have crossed myself when the Trinity is mentioned - Father, Son and Holy Spirit which something done when I’ve gone to a Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

No one says anything to me, and I do see a few others do the same things I do.