EF in English?

[Theresa_Antonia]

Since the OF can be in vernacular or in Latin, why not have the EF available in both? When Mass in English was first introduced, what we all expected was the Tridentine Mass to be translated, not replaced with something new!

Personally, I love Latin, and often say the Pater and other prayers in Latin, as it helps me to focus. However, the importance of the vernacular as the language of the heart should not be ignored.

I’ve noticed myself that when I attend an Eastern Liturgy, I can pray much more deeply when the Liturgy is in English, rather than Greek or Slavonic. The poetic richness of the worship just works better when it goes straight from the ear to the soul, instead of having to be mediated by reading a translation.

It seems to me that with the EF in the vernacular, we would no longer have to choose between accessibility for more people and a reverent and beautiful traditional liturgy.

 

[bilop]

Since the OF can be in vernacular or in Latin, why not have the EF available in both? When Mass in English was first introduced, what we all expected was the Tridentine Mass to be translated, not replaced with something new!

Personally, I love Latin, and often say the Pater and other prayers in Latin, as it helps me to focus. However, the importance of the vernacular as the language of the heart should not be ignored.

I’ve noticed myself that when I attend an Eastern Liturgy, I can pray much more deeply when the Liturgy is in English, rather than Greek or Slavonic. The poetic richness of the worship just works better when it goes straight from the ear to the soul, instead of having to be mediated by reading a translation.

It seems to me that with the EF in the vernacular, we would no longer have to choose between accessibility for more people and a reverent and beautiful traditional liturgy.

This would have been the right thing to do in the first palce.

I have often said Paul VI should have made a very simple declaration. 1) The Ordinary of the Mass (the unchanging parts) stays in Latin; learn it. The Propers, and reading (the things that change each day) are in the vernacular. No other changes.

However, given the abuses that have occured with the Ordinary Form, I would be loathe to allow any tinkering with the TLM.

I only think this sort of change would work if it superceded the OF, not the EF.

God Bless

 

[brotherhrolf]

We did have the EF in English sorta/kinda from 1966 - 1968. Certainly the 1966 St. Joseph’s Missal pointed the way. Unfortunately, that Missal was not viewed as anything more than a stepping stone to the OF. I couldn’t use my Missal because every two months or so, it was, OK, next week we will not chant the Gloria in Latin, we will say it in English and then they started messing with the translations of the EF into English

To wit: Gloria in excelsis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis was “Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will” (in 1967 for me) which became “Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on Earth” (in 1970). That’s not what the Latin says.

I never used my 1966 Missal. What was in that Missal was not what was going on in our parishes as we rushed towards the OF. I tossed it in favor of the Sunday missalette (which, BTW, we did NOT have in 1965). By the fall of my senior year in high school in 1968 we had abandoned the EF for a very early form of the OF. By Advent 1969 when the NO was adopted, it was a fait accompli and had been for almost a year in all of the parishes in my archdiocese.

I say let the EF stay in the form I knew in 1962. I saw two South American priests on EWTN on All Saint’s Day say the OF in English and Latin and it was breathtaking. It can be done.

 

[rpp]

I myself would like to see the EF in the venacular. I suspect the OP is right in her observation that that what people expected. When I read the Vatican II documents on this matter, I got that same impression. Never was it even hinted there that the Latin Rite Mass needed to reformed or reformulated.

I also agree with bilop when he says that a translation (reverently and carefully done!!!) into the vernacular will be needed in order to “retire” the current OF Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

How about each Mass in both Latin and vernacular? The Latin is solid, unchanging, and official (of course), the vernacular changes to whatever the priest wants it to be. And if the Mass lasts 2 hours, so be it.

 

[mikee]

The vernacular carries with it its own set of problems.

Take accurate translations, for starters…

Just think of what happened after the Bible and the Novus Ordo (NO) was translated into English. Till this day we are dealing with the ramifications of having bad translations of both. Do we really want that type of mess to be brought into the EF?

Mind you, this is not to suggest that we shouldn’t have the Bible or the Liturgy in the vernacular at all. I’m only suggesting that the vernacular in the OF has had tremendous problems we are only beginning to address, and we need to work on that first before trying to mess around with the EF, otherwise we risk making the liturgical mess even bigger than what it already is.

 

[Dempsey1919]

The EF celebrated in the vernacular would be great.

I think it would signal the end for the OF because the beauty of the prayers and the symbolism of the Mass would not be lost on anyone.

I like both Masses but the prayers of the EF are far more ancient, beautiful and articulate in my opinion. I hate to say it, but I find it hard to pray in the OF because of all the responses etc. I really prefer the quiet prayerfulness of the OF. It allows me to participate on a much deeper level.

 

[Cranch]

Here is Pope John XXIII on Latin (while referencing three of his predecessors in the second paragraph):Finally, the Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.

In addition, the Latin language “can be called truly catholic.” It has been consecrated through constant use by the Apostolic See, the mother and teacher of all Churches, and must be esteemed “a treasure … of incomparable worth.” It is a general passport to the proper understanding of the Christian writers of antiquity and the documents of the Church’s teaching. It is also a most effective bond, binding the Church of today with that of the past and of the future in wonderful continuity.
Granted, this is from Veterum Sapienta (on the promotion of the study of Latin), but as far as I’m concerned, the positive thoughts expressed would seem to apply just as much to Latin in the Liturgy. I love the expressions of bond and continuity, bringing to mind the Communion of Saints.

As someone who attends the EF Mass, I know I would be completely at home at such a Mass literally anywhere in the world. I can’t say the same for a non-English OF Mass, for example one said in Japanese or Portuguese. When it comes to the Liturgy, I think there’s something to be said for the catholicity (small “c”) of Latin as opposed to the Babel-like profusion of vernaculars.

People like to point to the apostles’ preaching at Pentecost and the crowd hearing each in his own tongue as an argument for the vernacular. I look at it from a results-oriented approach. Lacking the same advantage imparted by this miracle of the Holy Spirit, we can achieve the same universal understanding today by using and promoting Latin, as the Church has done within itself throughout the centuries and across linguistic and geographic barriers.

 

[mao_now]

Since the OF can be in vernacular or in Latin, why not have the EF available in both? When Mass in English was first introduced, what we all expected was the Tridentine Mass to be translated, not replaced with something new!

Personally, I love Latin, and often say the Pater and other prayers in Latin, as it helps me to focus. However, the importance of the vernacular as the language of the heart should not be ignored.

I’ve noticed myself that when I attend an Eastern Liturgy, I can pray much more deeply when the Liturgy is in English, rather than Greek or Slavonic. The poetic richness of the worship just works better when it goes straight from the ear to the soul, instead of having to be mediated by reading a translation.

It seems to me that with the EF in the vernacular, we would no longer have to choose between accessibility for more people and a reverent and beautiful traditional liturgy.

“Dear” Sister Theresa,
If you want Mass in the Vernacular, Holy Mother Church in her benevolence has graciously provided you with the Novus Ordo Missae. …enjoy!

The EF in the vernacular? There is no need…indeed if it were to be attempted. There would be A new “cultural revolution” just like China in the 50’s
And just like in China’s failed attempt at “cultural relevance” it will be resisted with riots and all manner of Sabotage…bet on it

 

[ethelzguy]

As memory serves, the 65-69 Mass was pretty much a translation of the old Latin Low Mass. First Sunday of each month, we had a “High Mass” in English, which seemed to be the TLM in English.

I wonder if some of the folks who denigrate the 1969 ICEL version have ever spoken personally with anyone who was involved with that project.

They may be shocked to discover that the ICEL wasn’t a group of hippie/liberal/rebels. In fact, the vast majority of participants were “old fogeys” who worked diligently to create a Mass that the masses could better understand.

What I really DID like about the 1969 Mass, was the elimination of the “triple repetitions” of so many prayers, which I fail to see the need for. If I say something three times, does that make me three times as repentent or unworthy?

From most accounts, the upcoming “retranslation” appears to be a return to the 65-69 Mass. If so, why not save everyone a lot of work and just dust off those missals?

TBL

 

[deigloriam]

I agree with Mao Now. Those who want the Vernacular have the NO/OF, and now those of us who don’t have the EF/TLM/“Gregorian Form” (I like the way Cardinal Hoyos put it). Rather than tinker with what has just been returned to us, I’d much rather see all of the good, solid ideas discussed above used to improve the NO.
On top of which, if major changes were announced in the TLM tomorrow, the traditional orders in union with Rome would wilt, and the SSPX and others would have no motive to return.

 

[ethelzguy]

On top of which, if major changes were announced in the TLM tomorrow, the traditional orders in union with Rome would wilt, and the SSPX and others would have no motive to return.

So, it’s ok to alienate US Catholics by fostering a return to the TLM and to modify the NO, but it’s NOT ok to “tinker” with the TLM because it might offend the SSPX?

 

[bilop]

So, it’s ok to alienate US Catholics by fostering a return to the TLM and to modify the NO, but it’s NOT ok to “tinker” with the TLM because it might offend the SSPX?

Why would U.S. Catholics be alienated by the return of the TLM?

Many of the prayers in the TLM are over 1000 years old, some of them over 1500 years old. You don’t “tinker” with that kind of tradition.

The OF has so many options, that I doubt most people would notice the “tinkering”. The main issue with the OF is the poor English translation, e.g. Pro multis does not mean “for all”.

What people are suggesting is a vernacular version of the EF, which I think would be a good idea if it replaced the Mass of Paul VI, and a bad idea if it replaced the Mass of John XXIII.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

What I really DID like about the 1969 Mass, was the elimination of the “triple repetitions” of so many prayers, which I fail to see the need for. If I say something three times, does that make me three times as repentent or unworthy?
TBL

The triple repetition is a reference to the Trinity. We pray to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The repetition reinforces that important theological point.

God Bless

 

[Chatter163]

True

 

[ethelzguy]

Why would U.S. Catholics be alienated by the return of the TLM?

Many of the prayers in the TLM are over 1000 years old, some of them over 1500 years old. You don’t “tinker” with that kind of tradition.

The OF has so many options, that I doubt most people would notice the “tinkering”. The main issue with the OF is the poor English translation, e.g. Pro multis does not mean “for all”.

What people are suggesting is a vernacular version of the EF, which I think would be a good idea if it replaced the Mass of Paul VI, and a bad idea if it replaced the Mass of John XXIII.

God Bless

While old heads like me probably wouldn’t care that much, an entire generation (or two) who never knew Mass in Latin as a regular occurance, I suspect that yes, there would be some significant alienation. Just because someone prefers Latin, doesn’t mean everyone else will.

My wife loves chicken livers, and they’re probably great, but I can’t stand them. We can’t declare something that we subjectively believe to be “in order” for everyone else.

 

[ethelzguy]

The triple repetition is a reference to the Trinity. We pray to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The repetition reinforces that important theological point.

God Bless

But, aren’t they “Three in One” ?

To say “Lord, I am not worthy, that you should come under my roof…” THREE times, might actually convince a scrupulous person that they SHOULDN’T go to Communion.

 

[Freshman88]

But, aren’t they “Three in One” ?

To say “Lord, I am not worthy, that you should come under my roof…” THREE times, might actually convince a scrupulous person that they SHOULDN’T go to Communion.

Great!

That is exactly what we need, the confessional line is much much shorter then the communion line - how many souls are being lost because they receive the Eucharist unworthily?

If they do become scrupulous, it is not the prayers fault, and this is a huge speculation. Let’s not forget that these prayers are ancient, repeating prayers is found in our Eastern liturgies, which are also ancient.

But no, I guess you know better then our forefathers - shame on them for bringing men to scrupolisty.

The bottom line is, I’ll look to the previous generations of the Church, except that one generation which had forsaken tradition. Even today they push their flawed conception of the Church on us youth, and we’re growing tired.

 

[Freshman88]

While old heads like me probably wouldn’t care that much, an entire generation (or two) who never knew Mass in Latin as a regular occurance, I suspect that yes, there would be some significant alienation. Just because someone prefers Latin, doesn’t mean everyone else will.

My wife loves chicken livers, and they’re probably great, but I can’t stand them. We can’t declare something that we subjectively believe to be “in order” for everyone else.

It isn’t subjective - that’s the problem. Latin is critical to the Western Rite, it is the language of Holy Mother Church.

Few understand this. Traditionalist don’t argue because we “like it more”, no it has everything to do with integrity of tradition and the Roman rite and almost nothing to do with subjectivity.

 

[ethelzguy]

Great!

If they do become scrupulous, it is not the prayers fault, and this is a huge speculation.

Well, let’s face it, practically everything we discuss regarding EF/OF CITH/COTT Organ/Guitar etc ad nauseum is pretty much speculation as to which is better in the sight of God, if indeed either ARE better (speculation in itself)

I was simply making an example of why (in my opinion) triple reps don’t serve any particular important purpose.

And, to be totally honest, to me personally it doesn’t matter what they change in the Mass, I will continue on, just as I always have.

Pray, Pay, and Obey