EF Mass

[datritle]

Thank you for this comprehensive response!

As a superior and an ordinary, I find most of these arguments silly for one simple reason. No secular priest, who is not part of an Ecclesia Dei institute has any obligation to celebrate the EF of the mass.

We (superiors and bishops) have already asked Rome to clarify the word “should” and were told that it means just that, “should” out of charity, not must “out of justice”. It’s really up to the individual priest to decide if he wants to celebrate it out of charity for the group that is requesting it.

However, the priest may not inconvenience the parish, nor may be celebrate more than one mass a day, two if the bishop allows it and in rare occasions three.

If the priest is a regular priest, he may never celebrate the EF without the permission of his major superior. In some religious communities, the major superiors have given blanket permission to priests to celebrate it, if it’s possible. In other communities, the major superiors have laid down criteria that the priests must follow. In some communities the major superior has prohibited the celebration except in private, because he cannot prohibit that or he has designated days and priests who may celebrate it.

The answer to the question is, no priest is bound to celebrate the EF when asked,unless he belongs to an Ecclesia Dei Institute. The charitable thing to do is to try to accommodate those who ask. However, we can only say that a priest should be charitable. We cannot command anyone to be charitable.

If the priest whom you’re asking is a regular priest, he can only accept the invitation if his major superior approves. Even if he wants to do so and the major superior disapproves, he has to decline the invitation.

If there is an inconvenience, the bishop should be contacted. The bishop should try to find someone. However, the bishop cannot command anyone to celebrate the EF, because it is extraordinary. No bishop can command what is extraordinary. In the Ecclesia Dei institutes, the Tridentine form is ordinary for them. Their superior can command it.

If the bishop cannot resolve the problem, then it falls on the Ecclesia Dei Commission to resolve it, if it can and when it can. No one can demand instant satisfaction. This is the Catholic Church, not City Hall. Even in City Hall, one does not get instant satisfaction. One often has to wait.

No one can request a priest from outside to come to a parish to celebrate the EF without the pastor’s permission. If the parish is run by a religious community, the religious superior, not the pastor, must give the permission. The line of authority is from the bishop to the local pastor, not from the bishop to the laity. Only in the case of a religious community is there a second person between the bishop and the pastor. That person is the religious superior. No priest from the FSSP or any other ED Institute will accept an invitation from the laity without a letter from the pastor. It is against canon law for him to do so.

The priest needs to understand what he’s saying. Using a dictionary is not good enough. He must study the missal and know it in his own language. That’s what the document means. He need not be able to chat in Latin. He must be proficient in reading Latin. He cannot be guessing at the meaning of the words from context. That is not allowed. This is per the instructions in the GIRM itself. Decoding is not enough.

That canon does not apply to every priest. There are many dioceses that have a dispensation from that canon. There are also many religious orders that have priests and many of those religious orders have asked for and been granted dispensations from that canon. I would say about half of the dioceses around the world are dispensed from that canon and most religious orders. There are many valid reasons for asking for such dispensations. What some dioceses and religious communities offer is the opportunity to learn Latin later, after the man has completed his degree requirements.

I strongly encourage everyone that before you give anyone advice on these documents over the Internet, you ask several questions.

1. Are the priests in your parish regular or secular?
2. If they are regular, do you know the position of the major superior on the EF? The parish has to accommodate to the major superior or he pulls his men and the parish closes. Then your bishop will have your heads.
3. If the priests are secular, have you asked if any of them are interested in celebrating the EF? There is no use in creating a case, if there is no one interested.
4. If there is a priest interested, does he have the time or does he already have two masses on Sunday? Maybe he can celebrate it on a weekday.
5. Have you spoken with your bishop, rather than demand or try to rub his face in documents that he understands better than you do? He may have some ideas, some plans for the future and he may be interested in hearing your ideas.

But he’s certainly not interested in being bullied or pushed around by you. He’d rather take a transfer to the Yukon, if Rome so wishes, than remain the bishop of a diocese run by the laity. In which case, I caution you. You know what you have, but you don’t know what you’ll get.

 

[TimothyH]

The point that I’m making is that bishops and religious superiors of men know how to read the SP and UE better than the average layman.

…snip…

A wise man once wrote,

"I have no idea, but God has a plan. Do nothing until he tells us what to do. By the way, whatever you do, please stay out of God’s way. Go knit a sweater for your grandchildren or something. Never try to fix something because you read in some book or some encyclical that this is the way it should be. You’re not the pope or the Holy Spirit. You have no idea if you understood what God was saying or if it even applies to current situation. Wait until God tells you. He will always speak through legitimate Church authority. Please go find something to knit or bake a pie or some such thing."

Maybe you are familiar with that quote, or perhaps that man?

-Tim-

 

[robwar]

I’m an altar server at the OF regularly, tonight in fact. I would actually love to learn how to be a server at the EF. I think it would be so cool - go light the candle and then put it out, move the book of the Gospels to the other side, etc.

-Tim-

I understand totally. There is a big learning curve not just for priests for the EF Mass.

 

[Moore11]

The priest needs to understand what he’s saying. Using a dictionary is not good enough. He must study the missal and know it in his own language. That’s what the document means. He need not be able to chat in Latin. He must be proficient in reading Latin. He cannot be guessing at the meaning of the words from context. That is not allowed. This is per the instructions in the GIRM itself. Decoding is not enough.

That canon does not apply to every priest. There are many dioceses that have a dispensation from that canon. There are also many religious orders that have priests and many of those religious orders have asked for and been granted dispensations from that canon. I would say about half of the dioceses around the world are dispensed from that canon and most religious orders. There are many valid reasons for asking for such dispensations. What some dioceses and religious communities offer is the opportunity to learn Latin later, after the man has completed his degree requirements.

I strongly encourage everyone that before you give anyone advice on these documents over the Internet, you ask several questions.

1. Are the priests in your parish regular or secular?
2. If they are regular, do you know the position of the major superior on the EF? The parish has to accommodate to the major superior or he pulls his men and the parish closes. Then your bishop will have your heads.
3. If the priests are secular, have you asked if any of them are interested in celebrating the EF? There is no use in creating a case, if there is no one interested.
4. If there is a priest interested, does he have the time or does he already have two masses on Sunday? Maybe he can celebrate it on a weekday.
5. Have you spoken with your bishop, rather than demand or try to rub his face in documents that he understands better than you do? He may have some ideas, some plans for the future and he may be interested in hearing your ideas.

But he’s certainly not interested in being bullied or pushed around by you. He’d rather take a transfer to the Yukon, if Rome so wishes, than remain the bishop of a diocese run by the laity. In which case, I caution you. You know what you have, but you don’t know what you’ll get.

It does not appear to be quite difficult for a priest to be trained in the EF. There are workshops that are free like this one: wdtprs.com/blog/2012/10/9-12-oct-miami-fl-low-mass-extraordinary-form-training-for-priests-no-charge/

It would appear to be 3 or 4 days of training…

 

[JReducation]

A wise man once wrote,

"I have no idea, but God has a plan. Do nothing until he tells us what to do. By the way, whatever you do, please stay out of God’s way. Go knit a sweater for your grandchildren or something. Never try to fix something because you read in some book or some encyclical that this is the way it should be. You’re not the pope or the Holy Spirit. You have no idea if you understood what God was saying or if it even applies to current situation. Wait until God tells you. He will always speak through legitimate Church authority. Please go find something to knit or bake a pie or some such thing."

Maybe you are familiar with that quote, or perhaps that man?

-Tim-

It does not appear to be quite difficult for a priest to be trained in the EF.

It’s not difficult at all. I do the workshops for many priests. It takes five mornings. But I do require that they take a Latin test first. The mechanics, rubrics and theology of the EF is quite simple to teach. After that, it’s like anything else. Practice, practice, practice.

I have nothing against the EF. My problem is when people start throwing documents around and I’m reading what they’re saying and asking myself, “Where did he/she get that interpretation or that nuance?” “Does she/he know that bishops and religious superiors have asked this question of Rome and that we have an answer that is different from the one that he/she is espousing? Has this person checked with the local authorities to make sure that he’s understanding correctly and that the holes are filled in?”

I’ll share what I like about both forms.

1. They are equally reverent and beautiful when they are celebrated correctly. At the same time, the format is different.
2. The language of the EF is certainly very beautiful and should be preserved, just as we preserve the English of Shakespeare and the Spanish of Cervantes. It’s part of our heritage. I’m not speaking just about Latin, I’m speaking about the wording and the usage of the words. It conveys a very deep spiritual reality.
3. The language of the OF is very simple, even austere. However, for those who appreciate the beauty in simplicity and austerity, it’s also very beautiful language. It too should be preserved. It is the language of modern man. There is nothing ungodly about modern man’s language. There is a difference between modern and modernism. The two are no interchangeable words. Just look at the written and performing arts and see how much beauty we have produced in modern language. It’s not a problem with the wording the the OF. It’s a problem with how it’s said.
4. I do not like the way that secular priests celebrate the EF. I prefer the way that religious celebrate it. When the EF is celebrated among religious men, there are no servers. There is no distinction between the priest and his brothers. There is a constant dialogue between the presider and the congregation. Secular priests don’t have community life. They only celebrate it for the laity. It’s usually very silent. Even a high mass often has a choir or a schola. There are few sung parts for the congregation. We normally don’t have scholas in religious houses, unless you’re a Benedictine house.
5. I don’t like the way that many priests celebrate the OF either. It is often rushed through. If we look at the rubrics, there are periods of silence that should be observed to allow for contemplative prayer and reflection. I understand that the typical parish has a train of masses. Often, there is little that can be done, but rush through it, in order to clear the parking lot. It does take something away from the celebration.
6. In some parishes, they have a very bad habit of over populating the sanctuary, which is unnecessary. I don’t like that. However, that is not part of the OF. I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, that it’s because the use of EMHC came long after the rubrics were written. There was never a clear direction on how to hand them the chalices in a quiet and less hectic manner. I’ve seen it done in a very dignified manner that you don’t even notice. And I’ve seen it done in a very disruptive manner that is distracting.
7. I don’t like the “regalness” that is often built into the EF, especially the high mass. An good example is holding up the priests alb while he walks up steps. I have a funny anecdote about that one. One of our brothers was going to celebrate the EF. The superior of the house was going to serve for him. He told the superior about holding up the alb and habit which is worn under, to which the superior responded, “When you are elected superior of this house, you can get those honors. In the meantime, you will hold up your own alb and habit like any other peasant.” When I was told about it, thought that the superior’s remark was a little strong, but I supported the superior. As superior general it’s my job to guide the brothers to live and worship as Francis taught us. He never taught us to make such fine distinctions among ourselves. I don’t like that part of it. Many of those small gestures are not required.
8. I would like to see a common liturgical calendar. For the laity, having two calendars is fine. For a religious order it’s not. Religious must follow either the Roman Calendar in use today or the calendar of the religious community, if it has one. The EF cuts right into it, because it’s different. This creates havoc if you want to use the old breviary or celebrate the EF on a the feast of Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, Bl. John XXIII and Bl. John Paul II, which we observe. Even our patron, St. Francis does not have a high mass in the EF calendar. We have to improvise in order to use the EF or not use it.

For what it’s worth, those are my :twocents:

 

[Moore11]

It’s not difficult at all. I do the workshops for many priests. It takes five mornings. But I do require that they take a Latin test first. The mechanics, rubrics and theology of the EF is quite simple to teach. After that, it’s like anything else. Practice, practice, practice.

I have nothing against the EF. My problem is when people start throwing documents around and I’m reading what they’re saying and asking myself, “Where did he/she get that interpretation or that nuance?” “Does she/he know that bishops and religious superiors have asked this question of Rome and that we have an answer that is different from the one that he/she is espousing? Has this person checked with the local authorities to make sure that he’s understanding correctly and that the holes are filled in?”

I’ll share what I like about both forms.

1. They are equally reverent and beautiful when they are celebrated correctly. At the same time, the format is different.
2. The language of the EF is certainly very beautiful and should be preserved, just as we preserve the English of Shakespeare and the Spanish of Cervantes. It’s part of our heritage. I’m not speaking just about Latin, I’m speaking about the wording and the usage of the words. It conveys a very deep spiritual reality.
3. The language of the OF is very simple, even austere. However, for those who appreciate the beauty in simplicity and austerity, it’s also very beautiful language. It too should be preserved. It is the language of modern man. There is nothing ungodly about modern man’s language. There is a difference between modern and modernism. The two are no interchangeable words. Just look at the written and performing arts and see how much beauty we have produced in modern language. It’s not a problem with the wording the the OF. It’s a problem with how it’s said.
4. I do not like the way that secular priests celebrate the EF. I prefer the way that religious celebrate it. When the EF is celebrated among religious men, there are no servers. There is no distinction between the priest and his brothers. There is a constant dialogue between the presider and the congregation. Secular priests don’t have community life. They only celebrate it for the laity. It’s usually very silent. Even a high mass often has a choir or a schola. There are few sung parts for the congregation. We normally don’t have scholas in religious houses, unless you’re a Benedictine house.
5. I don’t like the way that many priests celebrate the OF either. It is often rushed through. If we look at the rubrics, there are periods of silence that should be observed to allow for contemplative prayer and reflection. I understand that the typical parish has a train of masses. Often, there is little that can be done, but rush through it, in order to clear the parking lot. It does take something away from the celebration.
6. In some parishes, they have a very bad habit of over populating the sanctuary, which is unnecessary. I don’t like that. However, that is not part of the OF. I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, that it’s because the use of EMHC came long after the rubrics were written. There was never a clear direction on how to hand them the chalices in a quiet and less hectic manner. I’ve seen it done in a very dignified manner that you don’t even notice. And I’ve seen it done in a very disruptive manner that is distracting.
7. I don’t like the “regalness” that is often built into the EF, especially the high mass. An good example is holding up the priests alb while he walks up steps. I have a funny anecdote about that one. One of our brothers was going to celebrate the EF. The superior of the house was going to serve for him. He told the superior about holding up the alb and habit which is worn under, to which the superior responded, “When you are elected superior of this house, you can get those honors. In the meantime, you will hold up your own alb and habit like any other peasant.” When I was told about it, thought that the superior’s remark was a little strong, but I supported the superior. As superior general it’s my job to guide the brothers to live and worship as Francis taught us. He never taught us to make such fine distinctions among ourselves. I don’t like that part of it. Many of those small gestures are not required.
8. I would like to see a common liturgical calendar. For the laity, having two calendars is fine. For a religious order it’s not. Religious must follow either the Roman Calendar in use today or the calendar of the religious community, if it has one. The EF cuts right into it, because it’s different. This creates havoc if you want to use the old breviary or celebrate the EF on a the feast of Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, Bl. John XXIII and Bl. John Paul II, which we observe. Even our patron, St. Francis does not have a high mass in the EF calendar. We have to improvise in order to use the EF or not use it.

For what it’s worth, those are my :twocents:

Those are very interesting take brother. Thank you.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

It would appear to be 3 or 4 days of training…

How does it work out at your job when HR comes in and decides that everyone has to go to 3 or 4 days of mandatory training?

Yes, it isn’t a lot, but when is the best time for a priest to go away for a few days of training? Not anytime during the past few months with school starting, advent and then Christmas. This year we have Lent starting up on the heels of the Christmas season. Then it is Easter, confirmations, school graduations, pretty soon a zillion weddings, then the new “crop” of priests is ordained and the bishop starts reassigning priests. :juggle:

A little bit of teasing, but a little bit of truth.

 

[Mike30]

No, there is no parish where what is now the EF was turned into what is ordinary. The Tridentine Mass is still extraordinary and the Roman Missal of Nov 2011 is still ordinary. A parish or a pastor cannot make the decision that what was ordinary today is extraordinary tomorrow and what is extraordinary today is ordinary tomorrow.

If what you claim is true, then what the parish has done is simply stop celebrating what is ordinary and celebreated the Extraordinary Form exclusively. But that doesn’t make the Latin Tridentine Mass of 1962 ordinary. It is still the EF.

What is ordinary and what is extraordinary is not up to the pastor or the parish but up to the Holy See.

-Tim-

Not sure where you got that idea, the bolded area, but I’ll explain again. 1, one, uno, isa, ichi, eins, one and only one Extraordinary Form Mass at that Parish is celebrated a week. One, not exclusively.The Parish advertises it as the Extraordinary Form of the Mass celebrated at such and such a time once every Sunday. All the other Masses are in the Ordinary Form, but I was pretty sure I said that. Hope you can understand it a bit better now. I thought it was pretty clear in the original post.

Maybe not. Sorry that you misunderstood.

 

[Moore11]

How does it work out at your job when HR comes in and decides that everyone has to go to 3 or 4 days of mandatory training?

Yes, it isn’t a lot, but when is the best time for a priest to go away for a few days of training? Not anytime during the past few months with school starting, advent and then Christmas. This year we have Lent starting up on the heels of the Christmas season. Then it is Easter, confirmations, school graduations, pretty soon a zillion weddings, then the new “crop” of priests is ordained and the bishop starts reassigning priests. :juggle:

A little bit of teasing, but a little bit of truth.

I was responding to the idea that it is hard to have trained priests for the EF when this is not true. In fact I know several priests who would attend something like this on their own time.
I get your point but all this rigmarole about it being something so hard and mysterious that no one under the age of 90 knows how to do it and that is why some diocese can;t have it is silly. I bet most diocese have more training for “safe environment” things than this. Heck Extraordinary misinsters at my parish get a 5 minute talk and that is all the “training” they need to distribute the actual Body of Jesus Christ. And in five minutes they learn which football jersey, cartoon character shirt, and flip flops to wear. Followed by how to sanitize their hands with purell (the stench of which is the only “incense” we have at Mass now.) And how to actually “bless” another humna being. All of that in 5 minutes!!!
Extraordinary ministers =5 MIn
Extraordinary rite= 3 days… Sounds about right

Little bit of joking and a little bit of truth…

Actually for a part time money gig I sometimes do security work. For this I need to go through training every year. CPR, First Aid. And I personally go through a weapons course every other year. Training my dear is not part of a job, it is part of life.
When I decided to stay home with my kids I took infant CPR and first aid classes. Because that is what I needed to be trained in.
If the priests are the military of the Church, the soldiers for Christ. They should have no problem receiving training on any given weapon against the devil. Including the extraordinary rite.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Sorry, too much work nonsense going on right now and it bled over into my posting. I apologize.

I did about 5 hours of training for EMHC - a morning for the diocese training (3 hours), an hour at my parish for the local instruction (where to stand, when to approach the altar, practice with unconsecrated hosts), and an hour learning how to distribute at the nursing home (how much of the liturgy of the word to include, etc.)

The Virtus training was 3 or 4 hours, plus however long it took to go through the background check process. And I did CPR and First Aid also as a volunteer.

So in actual fact 3 days (or 5 mornings with Br JR) to learn the EF isn’t bad.

I was responding to the idea that it is hard to have trained priests for the EF when this is not true. In fact I know several priests who would attend something like this on their own time.
I get your point but all this rigmarole about it being something so hard and mysterious that no one under the age of 90 knows how to do it and that is why some diocese can;t have it is silly. I bet most diocese have more training for “safe environment” things than this. Heck Extraordinary misinsters at my parish get a 5 minute talk and that is all the “training” they need to distribute the actual Body of Jesus Christ. And in five minutes they learn which football jersey, cartoon character shirt, and flip flops to wear. Followed by how to sanitize their hands with purell (the stench of which is the only “incense” we have at Mass now.) And how to actually “bless” another humna being. All of that in 5 minutes!!!
Extraordinary ministers =5 MIn
Extraordinary rite= 3 days… Sounds about right

Little bit of joking and a little bit of truth…

Actually for a part time money gig I sometimes do security work. For this I need to go through training every year. CPR, First Aid. And I personally go through a weapons course every other year. Training my dear is not part of a job, it is part of life.
When I decided to stay home with my kids I took infant CPR and first aid classes. Because that is what I needed to be trained in.
If the priests are the military of the Church, the soldiers for Christ. They should have no problem receiving training on any given weapon against the devil. Including the extraordinary rite.

 

[superamazingman]

1. I would like to see a common liturgical calendar. For the laity, having two calendars is fine. For a religious order it’s not. Religious must follow either the Roman Calendar in use today or the calendar of the religious community, if it has one. The EF cuts right into it, because it’s different. This creates havoc if you want to use the old breviary or celebrate the EF on a the feast of Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, Bl. John XXIII and Bl. John Paul II, which we observe. Even our patron, St. Francis does not have a high mass in the EF calendar. We have to improvise in order to use the EF or not use it.

agreed.

 

[JReducation]

agreed.

Finally, someone who understands.