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Melchior_1
Guest
All the Masses you mention are OF Masses. Based on the bolded, maybe you should consider asking to have the OF said in Latin if language is the only issue?
- Status
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Moore11
Guest
LOL. I guess some people just wont understand unless you live in the situation.
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moon1234
Guest
Timothy H pointed out that one of the reasons given is that the priest does not know Latin. The proper response is that the Priest is not in conformity with Vatican II nor the current code of canon law.
Vatican II stated that the pastor should see to it that the people are able to say the responses that pertain to them IN LATIN and that the priest himself should be well versed in Latin.
The fact that it is almost universal that priests do NOT know latin means that the VAST majority of them are not in keeping with one of the teachings of VII and the current code of Canon Law.
The point here is not to bash priests, but rather to point out that using the lack of Latin knowledge as an excuse to not have an EF Mass is a strawman argument. ALL priests of the Latin Rite are supposed to know latin. In that vein the ICRSS, FSSP and other traditional groups are MORE in keeping with that VII teaching than are most priests who say only the OF.
As to the point of not having enough Mass times due to being too busy, the pastor should make an effort to bring in a Priest to meet the requests of the people who wish an EF Mass. That is the proper pastorl response vs. a flat out NO. Maybe even offer to the parish priest to bring in another priest who CAN say the Mass. That will relieve the parish priest from any extra obligations.
Vatican II stated that the pastor should see to it that the people are able to say the responses that pertain to them IN LATIN and that the priest himself should be well versed in Latin.
The fact that it is almost universal that priests do NOT know latin means that the VAST majority of them are not in keeping with one of the teachings of VII and the current code of Canon Law.
The point here is not to bash priests, but rather to point out that using the lack of Latin knowledge as an excuse to not have an EF Mass is a strawman argument. ALL priests of the Latin Rite are supposed to know latin. In that vein the ICRSS, FSSP and other traditional groups are MORE in keeping with that VII teaching than are most priests who say only the OF.
As to the point of not having enough Mass times due to being too busy, the pastor should make an effort to bring in a Priest to meet the requests of the people who wish an EF Mass. That is the proper pastorl response vs. a flat out NO. Maybe even offer to the parish priest to bring in another priest who CAN say the Mass. That will relieve the parish priest from any extra obligations.
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Moore11
Guest
Cookie cutter but only for one type of Mass. You know, the one with folk music, a teen rock band, or obscure languages for the sake of the leftist mantra. Tolerance for all things except conservatives.Wait a minute…
Your post speaks first about all the different Masses which cater to small groups and then at the end you state that they are cookie cutter liturgies. Which is it, all different or cookie cutter?. I’m confused.
I thought the goal was one, stunningly uniform liturgy? Is that not the goal?
-Tim-
it is cookie cutter in the form of progressiveness in the modern context of the term. If you don’t know what I mean then you must live in a place that is heaven on earth, so good for you. I am jealous. But there is an off chance you know exactly what I am saying…I am glad that at least you see the hypocrisy in the idea. That is what is so frustrating. These Ideas do not come from me. We have priests who want to say the EF being told absolutely not, not even in private.
I do find hope. In other diocese there has been a marked turn toward orthodoxy and that is comforting. I just need patience to wait until it trickles down to our diocese.
What is funny is that I live in one of the most conservative places in our country. The Church is probably the most liberal entity in our area…
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Mike30
Guest
Hey, I’ve got a really strange idea. :newidea: Since we are told that both the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form are two expressions of the same rite, why not just change one of the Ordinary Form Masses to the Extraordinary Form and see what happens? What could be the harm?
Would all of the Ordinary Form devotees recoil in horror and run from the Church never to return?
Would there be a masive petition drive to force the removal of the offending Mass? Would the offending Priest be burned in effegy?:bigyikes:I don’t think so. In fact, I know of one Parish where that exact thing was done and guess what happened? A few very progressive types complained about the lack of inclusivity and the denigration of women. Some left the Parish for more welcoming and inclusive Churches. Some people moved around to other Masses at the same Church, others started to frequent the Extraordinary Form AND and amazingly enough, other people started coming to the Church because of the Extraordinary Form being offered there. As an aside, the Ordinary Form Masses still constituted the bulk of the Masses at that Parish and they overall became much more reverent.
Imagine that.
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Cranch
Guest
This! And the trading of an OF mass attended by 800 for a small EF mass is another straw man. No one wants that. EF proponents want a reasonable accommodation and I think you’d find them more than willing to work with a pastor to find a solution. I guess it continues to be necessary to point out the following from Universae Ecclesiae (Instruction on the application of the Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI given Motu Proprio):
- The Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum constitutes an important expression of the Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff and of his munus of regulating and ordering the Church’s Sacred Liturgy. The Motu Proprio manifests his solicitude as Vicar of Christ and Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church, and has the aim of:
b.) effectively guaranteeing and ensuring the use of the forma extraordinaria for all who ask for it, given that the use of the 1962 Roman Liturgy is a faculty generously granted for the good of the faithful and therefore is to be interpreted in a sense favourable to the faithful who are its principal addressees;
There’s that word guaranteeing! As to this idea that bishops have the last word, the same instruction says:
9. The Sovereign Pontiff has conferred upon the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei ordinary vicarious power for the matters within its competence, in a particular way for monitoring the observance and application of the provisions of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum (cf. art. 12).
- § 1. The Pontifical Commission exercises this power, beyond the faculties previously granted by Pope John Paul II and confirmed by Pope Benedict XVI (cf. Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, artt. 11-12), also by means of the power to decide upon recourses legitimately sent to it, as hierarchical Superior, against any possible singular administrative provision of an Ordinary which appears to be contrary to the Motu Proprio.
- Diocesan Bishops, according to Canon Law, are to monitor liturgical matters in order to guarantee the common good and to ensure that everything is proceeding in peace and serenity in their Dioceses, always in agreement with the mens of the Holy Father clearly expressed by the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum. In cases of controversy or well-founded doubt about the celebration in the forma extraordinaria, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei will adjudicate.
- It is the task of the Diocesan Bishop to undertake all necessary measures to ensure respect for the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite, according to the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum.
Here is what Universae Ecclesiae says about the qualifications of priests who say the EF mass: - With respect to the question of the necessary requirements for a priest to be held idoneus (“qualified”) to celebrate in the forma extraordinaria, the following is hereby stated:
b.) Regarding the use of the Latin language, a basic knowledge is necessary, allowing the priest to pronounce the words correctly and understand their meaning.
c.) Regarding knowledge of the execution of the Rite, priests are presumed to be qualified who present themselves spontaneously to celebrate the forma extraordinaria, and have celebrated it previously.
- Ordinaries are asked to offer their clergy the possibility of acquiring adequate preparation for celebrations in the forma extraordinaria. This applies also to Seminaries, where future priests should be given proper formation, including study of Latin and, where pastoral needs suggest it, the opportunity to learn the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite.
- In Dioceses without qualified priests, Diocesan Bishops can request assistance from priests of the Institutes erected by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, either to the celebrate the forma extraordinaria or to teach others how to celebrate it.
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Cranch
Guest
A last interesting nugget from Universae Ecclesiae:
Universae Ecclesiae was issued several years after Summorum Pontificum to address comments and questions about the Motu Proprio from bishops around the world.
- In the case of a priest who presents himself occasionally in a parish church or an oratory with some faithful, and wishes to celebrate in the forma extraordinaria, as foreseen by articles 2 and 4 of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, the pastor or rector of the church, or the priest responsible, is to permit such a celebration, while respecting the schedule of liturgical celebrations in that same church.
Universae Ecclesiae was issued several years after Summorum Pontificum to address comments and questions about the Motu Proprio from bishops around the world.
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Zosimus41
Guest
manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-latin-mass-why-you-cant-have-it.html
And to think I complain about having to drive all the way downtown 530pm for Latin Mass when it could be worse.
I have posted an interesting view I found online.
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TimothyH
Guest
That the priest doesn’t know Latin ts not a strawman argument. If they don’t know Latin, what are you going to do? Round them up and force them to go back to seminary? It’s not an excuse. It is a reality. What are you going to do?
Have you not heard that there is a shortage of priests? The pastor can’t make an effort to bring in a Priest who can say the EF if he can’t even find priests to say the OF, hear confession, get to the hospital to annoint the sick and give spiritual council to his parishoners.
And a flat out “No” is the right of the every priest. No priest can be forced to say the EF. He could have all the free time in the world, have a doctorate in ecclesial Latin, and he has the right to say “No, I will not do it” and walk away. No priest can be forced to do what is not ordinary, not even by the Bishop.
The reason why a priest becomes a priest is for the salvation of his own soul. God calls him to be a priest first and formost because conforming his life to the will of God that he be a priest is what is best for the salvation of his own soul. Like it or not, his own salvation comes first, and if the OF fills his spiritual needs, then he need not say the EF ever. Even the bishop cannot command him to say the EF.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
No, there is no parish where what is now the EF was turned into what is ordinary. The Tridentine Mass is still extraordinary and the Roman Missal of Nov 2011 is still ordinary. A parish or a pastor cannot make the decision that what was ordinary today is extraordinary tomorrow and what is extraordinary today is ordinary tomorrow.Hey, I’ve got a really strange idea. :newidea: Since we are told that both the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form are two expressions of the same rite, why not just change one of the Ordinary Form Masses to the Extraordinary Form and see what happens? What could be the harm?
Would all of the Ordinary Form devotees recoil in horror and run from the Church never to return?
I don’t think so. ** In fact, I know of one Parish where that exact thing was done** and guess what happened? A few very progressive types complained about the lack of inclusivity and the denigration of women. Some left the Parish for more welcoming and inclusive Churches. Some people moved around to other Masses at the same Church, others started to frequent the Extraordinary Form AND and amazingly enough, other people started coming to the Church because of the Extraordinary Form being offered there. As an aside, the Ordinary Form Masses still constituted the bulk of the Masses at that Parish and they overall became much more reverent.
Imagine that.
If what you claim is true, then what the parish has done is simply stop celebrating what is ordinary and celebreated the Extraordinary Form exclusively. But that doesn’t make the Latin Tridentine Mass of 1962 ordinary. It is still the EF.
What is ordinary and what is extraordinary is not up to the pastor or the parish but up to the Holy See.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
I live in the Archdioces of Atlanta under Abp Wilton Gregory and Aux Zarama. We now have a second Bishop Elect, Msgr David Tally who will be our second Auxilliary.Cookie cutter but only for one type of Mass. You know, the one with folk music, a teen rock band, or obscure languages for the sake of the leftist mantra. Tolerance for all things except conservatives.
I am glad that at least you see the hypocrisy in the idea. That is what is so frustrating. These Ideas do not come from me. We have priests who want to say the EF being told absolutely not, not even in private.
I do find hope. In other diocese there has been a marked turn toward orthodoxy and that is comforting. I just need patience to wait until it trickles down to our diocese.
What is funny is that I live in one of the most conservative places in our country. The Church is probably the most liberal entity in our area…
Catholicism in North Georgia will displace the Southern Baptists as the largest religion in roughly five years. Abp Gregory has allowed FSSP into the diocese. The Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia teach at my daughter’s school and we have a Cistercian monastery within 1.5 hours drive. Mother Angelica’s campus is about 4 hours away in Alabama.
I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that orthodoxy has nothing to do with the form of the Mass. Baptist converts know their faith well and we have plenty of Baptist converts here. The form of the Mass has nothing to do with orthodoxy.
I moved from New York City to Cobb County, Georgia on purpose to get away from the liberal northeast. If you want to check the area out, send me a PM. I’ll be happy to put you up in my guest room.
-Tim-
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Moore11
Guest
Thanks Tim!!! You are on. But if only you had an in at a biotech company for a plant scientist so my wife can support me and our children!!!..
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pnewton
Guest
I think this would be a very rare situation where you have an occassional priest in a parish wanting to do something like this. Yes, if it happened, then he should be accommodated.
I have a question though, besides Latin, doesn’t a priest also need to know how to celebrate the other form?
As to the original question, the answer is no. There is a provision where there is a dispute over this that Ecclessia Dei is to help mediate the problem. Thus, it is possible the answer will be no. It is not automatic. Likewise, what constitutes a stable group is open for debate.
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JReducation
Guest
As a superior and an ordinary, I find most of these arguments silly for one simple reason. No secular priest, who is not part of an Ecclesia Dei institute has any obligation to celebrate the EF of the mass.
We (superiors and bishops) have already asked Rome to clarify the word “should” and were told that it means just that, “should” out of charity, not must “out of justice”. It’s really up to the individual priest to decide if he wants to celebrate it out of charity for the group that is requesting it.
However, the priest may not inconvenience the parish, nor may be celebrate more than one mass a day, two if the bishop allows it and in rare occasions three.
If the priest is a regular priest, he may never celebrate the EF without the permission of his major superior. In some religious communities, the major superiors have given blanket permission to priests to celebrate it, if it’s possible. In other communities, the major superiors have laid down criteria that the priests must follow. In some communities the major superior has prohibited the celebration except in private, because he cannot prohibit that or he has designated days and priests who may celebrate it.
The answer to the question is, no priest is bound to celebrate the EF when asked,unless he belongs to an Ecclesia Dei Institute. The charitable thing to do is to try to accommodate those who ask. However, we can only say that a priest should be charitable. We cannot command anyone to be charitable.
If the priest whom you’re asking is a regular priest, he can only accept the invitation if his major superior approves. Even if he wants to do so and the major superior disapproves, he has to decline the invitation.
If there is an inconvenience, the bishop should be contacted. The bishop should try to find someone. However, the bishop cannot command anyone to celebrate the EF, because it is extraordinary. No bishop can command what is extraordinary. In the Ecclesia Dei institutes, the Tridentine form is ordinary for them. Their superior can command it.
If the bishop cannot resolve the problem, then it falls on the Ecclesia Dei Commission to resolve it, if it can and when it can. No one can demand instant satisfaction. This is the Catholic Church, not City Hall. Even in City Hall, one does not get instant satisfaction. One often has to wait.
No one can request a priest from outside to come to a parish to celebrate the EF without the pastor’s permission. If the parish is run by a religious community, the religious superior, not the pastor, must give the permission. The line of authority is from the bishop to the local pastor, not from the bishop to the laity. Only in the case of a religious community is there a second person between the bishop and the pastor. That person is the religious superior. No priest from the FSSP or any other ED Institute will accept an invitation from the laity without a letter from the pastor. It is against canon law for him to do so.
I strongly encourage everyone that before you give anyone advice on these documents over the Internet, you ask several questions.
We (superiors and bishops) have already asked Rome to clarify the word “should” and were told that it means just that, “should” out of charity, not must “out of justice”. It’s really up to the individual priest to decide if he wants to celebrate it out of charity for the group that is requesting it.
However, the priest may not inconvenience the parish, nor may be celebrate more than one mass a day, two if the bishop allows it and in rare occasions three.
If the priest is a regular priest, he may never celebrate the EF without the permission of his major superior. In some religious communities, the major superiors have given blanket permission to priests to celebrate it, if it’s possible. In other communities, the major superiors have laid down criteria that the priests must follow. In some communities the major superior has prohibited the celebration except in private, because he cannot prohibit that or he has designated days and priests who may celebrate it.
The answer to the question is, no priest is bound to celebrate the EF when asked,unless he belongs to an Ecclesia Dei Institute. The charitable thing to do is to try to accommodate those who ask. However, we can only say that a priest should be charitable. We cannot command anyone to be charitable.
If the priest whom you’re asking is a regular priest, he can only accept the invitation if his major superior approves. Even if he wants to do so and the major superior disapproves, he has to decline the invitation.
If there is an inconvenience, the bishop should be contacted. The bishop should try to find someone. However, the bishop cannot command anyone to celebrate the EF, because it is extraordinary. No bishop can command what is extraordinary. In the Ecclesia Dei institutes, the Tridentine form is ordinary for them. Their superior can command it.
If the bishop cannot resolve the problem, then it falls on the Ecclesia Dei Commission to resolve it, if it can and when it can. No one can demand instant satisfaction. This is the Catholic Church, not City Hall. Even in City Hall, one does not get instant satisfaction. One often has to wait.
No one can request a priest from outside to come to a parish to celebrate the EF without the pastor’s permission. If the parish is run by a religious community, the religious superior, not the pastor, must give the permission. The line of authority is from the bishop to the local pastor, not from the bishop to the laity. Only in the case of a religious community is there a second person between the bishop and the pastor. That person is the religious superior. No priest from the FSSP or any other ED Institute will accept an invitation from the laity without a letter from the pastor. It is against canon law for him to do so.
The priest needs to understand what he’s saying. Using a dictionary is not good enough. He must study the missal and know it in his own language. That’s what the document means. He need not be able to chat in Latin. He must be proficient in reading Latin. He cannot be guessing at the meaning of the words from context. That is not allowed. This is per the instructions in the GIRM itself. Decoding is not enough.
That canon does not apply to every priest. There are many dioceses that have a dispensation from that canon. There are also many religious orders that have priests and many of those religious orders have asked for and been granted dispensations from that canon. I would say about half of the dioceses around the world are dispensed from that canon and most religious orders. There are many valid reasons for asking for such dispensations. What some dioceses and religious communities offer is the opportunity to learn Latin later, after the man has completed his degree requirements.
I strongly encourage everyone that before you give anyone advice on these documents over the Internet, you ask several questions.
- Are the priests in your parish regular or secular?
- If they are regular, do you know the position of the major superior on the EF? The parish has to accommodate to the major superior or he pulls his men and the parish closes. Then your bishop will have your heads.
- If the priests are secular, have you asked if any of them are interested in celebrating the EF? There is no use in creating a case, if there is no one interested.
- If there is a priest interested, does he have the time or does he already have two masses on Sunday? Maybe he can celebrate it on a weekday.
- Have you spoken with your bishop, rather than demand or try to rub his face in documents that he understands better than you do? He may have some ideas, some plans for the future and he may be interested in hearing your ideas.
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Cranch
Guest
See paragraphs 20 § c, 21 & 22 in my earlier post.
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Cranch
Guest
I think most people understand Summorum Pontificum does not require any individual priest to say the EF. The Motu Proprio is quite clear on what is a pastor’s, or failing that, a bishop’s obligation. It is to find a solution. In favor of the EF:
“The Motu Proprio…has the aim of…effectively guaranteeing and ensuring the use of the forma extraordinaria for all who ask for it, given that the use of the 1962 Roman Liturgy is a faculty generously granted for the good of the faithful and therefore is to be interpreted in a sense favourable to the faithful who are its principal addressees.”
Yes, this is the progression outlined in the Motu Proprio.
I missed where anyone is demanding “instant satisfaction.” Adherents of the Latin Mass are a patient and long-suffering lot.
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JReducation
Guest
The point that I’m making is that bishops and religious superiors of men know how to read the SP and UE better than the average layman. Therefore, we must be very careful what we say to people on the Internet. Because if we tell them something and a bishop or major superior gives the person a different answer, the person is going to be confused and disappointed.
That’s why I posted those guide questions at the end of my previous post. Those will help the individual know what to do next and what he or she can expect.
I’m speaking from experience. I’ve seen two parishes closed because the people did not understand the documents clearly and pushed a little too hard. What happened? It was a parish under the jurisdiction of a religious superior. Without notice, in 24 hours, he vacated two parishes and called the bishop to inform him that his men were not returning to the parish until the laity respected the authority of the major superior. This caused a mess that lasted about three months. Finally, there was no EF. Even Ecclesia Dei could not make it happen, because the CDF said that the major superior has the protection of the papacy, since he is an exempt religious. It was not until 18 months later that they had a new major superior who allowed the EF. It all began with people getting their facts from the Internet rather than from authoritative individuals.
In this case, the Canon Lawyers and the CDF agreed that no congregation and no group can make any demands of an exempt religious and that the exempt religious has no obligations to do more than the law requires him to do. What happened was that the people had been told that the pastor and the bishop HAD to provide. No one had told them
a) the pastor is a regular priest
b) regular priests are subject to a major superior
c) some major superiors are exempt religious
d) exempt religious are not bound by the Motu Propio
e) the laity has to deal with the major superior through the pastor, not go over his head to the bishop
f) the bishop is only going to bring in the major superior, because he can’t afford to lose the religious, unless he has diocesan priests to run the parish, nor can a bishop suppress a religious house once it’s open
The people did not know any of this. I don’t think they even knew that there is a difference between a regular and a secular priest. These folks got caught in a mess that they did not want, because they followed advice from the Internet.
I strongly suggest that in these cases, people ask the right questions and proceed accordingly. The chances of getting where they want to go are much better.
R
robwar
Guest
Tim,
It is not just the Latin but the rubrics of the EF Mass are different too and the priest would have to be trained in it as well and probably why you don’t see many EF Masses being offered. The one parish I’m thinking of that offers an EF Mass is doing it at a different time than the regularly scheduled Masses. For all those clamoring for the EF Mass, having a priest suddenly change a regularly scheduled OF Mass to EF would cause more uproar in the parish than bring people in who want it.
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TimothyH
Guest
It says “Has the aim of.”
Having ***the aim ***of effectively guaranteeing is not an obligation to “Find a solution in favor of the EF.” It is not an obligation to make the EF happen no matter what. This means that it is a goal, not that it is a command to make it so.
“Guarantee” is not the same as “Aim to Guarantee.”
There are many conditions which make the guarantee impossible, not the least of which is the fact that no secular priest can be forced to say the EF.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
I’m an altar server at the OF regularly, tonight in fact. I would actually love to learn how to be a server at the EF. I think it would be so cool - go light the candle and then put it out, move the book of the Gospels to the other side, etc.
-Tim-
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